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War

moose eater

moose eater

Well-known member
Anyone who can say with a straight face that these infractions are equal in frequency or severity on 'both sides' has their head WAAAAAY the fuck up their ass, and biases they're refusing to be honest about, let alone out publicly in a forum.

Which, in my world, whether it's Joe Shmoe on the street or Joe Biden, they're complicit in the perpetuation of this 75-year-old miscarriage of justice and incredible violations of human rights..

Any active IDF individuals would be advised to not come visiting or door-knocking near me this year.

And yes, I wrote the Whitehouse about 'our' complicity in these crimes and got back a nice form letter with no substance contained within it whatsoever. Pabulum by any other name. Tried to boil it to see if I could extract any oatmeal from it.

I told them that as much as Trump causes me concern and nausea, as he's a narcissistic lunatic, Biden will never get our votes as long as he behaves as he has in this issue. But then Biden's been a corporate sell-out conservative Dem for decades, thus not deserving of any votes anyway, what with his support for private prisons, whore to Wall St., supporting Israel in their war crimes, his support for the war crimes this Nation committed in Iraq, based on clearly fabricated 'evidence', his support for a failed drug war, and so much more.

Standard 'Murcan politics; a choice between a sociopath sell-out with clearly defined ego issues, or a greater narcissist lunatic facing 90-some felonies.

Ought to be one of those election years when the blindered partisans are proud to wear those "I voted today" stickers that are so efficient at removing pet hair from clothing..
 
moose eater

moose eater

Well-known member
moose eater

moose eater

Well-known member
GenghisKush said:
That would be comforting if Hamas merely brought lawsuits against 1200 people, instead of murdering them.
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I'm sure you're aware that there are 2 separate court systems in Israel. One for Palestinians and one for Israelis.

Look through the article about Palestinian detention and children immediately above.

Not that Israel actively practices and operates an Apartheid system in places they don't even legally hold...

By the way, please see the comments in media this past week by at least 2 Israeli hostages, made after their release, re. the risks IDF (not Hamas) exposed them to.
 
P

PetePrice

Active member
GenghisKush said:
Are you really worried you're gonna get fired from your job for talking smack about Israel?
Don't you sell seeds for a living? Who's going to fire you?
Maybe in a few months, when you hit some unforeseen financial trouble, you can blame it on "them."

Seriously, man. I don't know whether you're an antisemite. I've seen you stand up to antisemitism plenty of times before in these forums. But you are waaaaay more tolerant of antisemitism than you used to be.
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What a shit card to pull.
 
mean mr.mustard

mean mr.mustard

I Pass Satellites
Veteran
Brother Nature said:
I would believe you were more genuine if I hadn't been involved in this thread from the beginning and read what you posted about Russia and the Ukraine war.

If that neighbor kept killing every dog I brought home, left the dead dogs on display on a fence that he erected around my home to control when, where and how I used my home, kept making that fence barrier smaller and smaller, then maimed or killed my family members every time they decided to wonder around that fence for 7.5 decades, I would plan and exact a horrific and gruesome revenge on that neighbor, or I'd at least try.

In saying that, from my position of privilege in a country far away from any conflict, toking on my bong, I too wish for peace and think that we all should just get along. However, I have been alive and around humans long enough to know our species is not capable of this. I don't have an answer of course, and I do admire your dream for peace, it is honorable, but pragmatism beats wishful thinking any day of the week in the real world. In gaza it's wishful thinking in one hand and pieces of your murdered family members in the other, one elicits a more visceral response that is not complicated in any way.
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Resistance on the field of battle is not focused on innocent people.

I think humans are capable of peace.
 
moose eater

moose eater

Well-known member
I forgot to add in a previous post that there are no credible reports of Palestine having blocked clean potable water and food from entering Israel, but Israel has had a blockade in effect, throttling food and water into Palestine, a place they do not represent or legally hold, for years..... Directly related to the Peace Flotilla that IDF and Mossad used some serious force to stop, maiming and/or killing a number of peace activists

Sounds like a vicious dog requiring euthanasia to me.

*(For all the numskulls immersed in their fantasy what-about-isms and 'both sides' bullshit).
 
moose eater

moose eater

Well-known member
The Intercept just sent out a blurb about an increasing number of journalists being fired for failing to uphold the pro-Israel bias (i.e. failing to agree to print Israel's preferred propaganda).... Not that Israel holds any sway over the press or the US (eyeroll).
 
dramamine

dramamine

Well-known member
GenghisKush said:
A better world is possible, Brother. That's not wishful thinking, but a statement of fact.
We can either be lost to doubt whether it is even possible, or we can make it so.

Cannavore: section 7 of the Hamas charter spells out that the Prophet commands every Muslim kill every Jew before Judgement Day will come.

Here's a good summary by an expert (that I found cited in the wikipedia article you shared). He gets into some notable details, like how conspiracy theories that you've called out others for in the past are woven into Hamas' fundamental ideology.

The Anti-Semitism of Hamas

By Meir Litvak
Dr. Meir Litvak is a senior lecturer at Tel Aviv University’s Department of Middle Eastern and African History.

Anti-Semitism is a major pillar in the ideology of Hamas (acronym of Harakat al-muqawama al-Islamiyya - Islamic Resistance Movement), a Palestinian national-Islamic movement, which perceives and articulates its conflict with Israel in Manichean and absolutist religious terms. Like most other Islamic movements in the Middle East, Hamas regards the conflict with the latest and most fateful phase of the relentless onslaught waged by western imperialism and culture against Islam since the Crusades. Hamas publications portray the Jews as instruments of the West or, alternatively, as the power that controls and manipulates the West in this war. Concurrently, it views the current struggle as the last link in the war, which the Jews have been waging against Islam since its essence. Consequently, Hamas emphasizes the emphasis on the "Islamic essence" of the Palestinian cause."
As such, the struggle is portrayed as an unbridgeable dichotomy between two absolutes: a "war of religion and faith," between Islam and Judaism and between Muslims and Jews, rather than one between Palestinians and Israelis or Zionists.
It is a historical, religious, cultural and existential conflict between the true religion, which supersedes all previous religions, i.e. Islam, and the abrogated superseded religion, Judaism. It is a war between good personified by the Muslims who represent the party of God (Hizballah) against "evil incarnated…. the party of Satan" (hizb al-shaytan) represented by the Jews.1

Justifying the Self and Demonizing the Other

Every conflict involves justification of the Self and the demonization of rivals and enemies, or in Hamas' case the Jews as the "enemies of God and of humanity." Such an accusation, in the words of Bernard Lewis, applies to all enemies of Islam since, if according to the Quran the fighters for Islam are fighting in holy war "in the path of God" and for God, then their opponents are fighting against God and are, therefore, his enemies.2 However, such depiction is used more forcefully and more often against the Jews in view of their explicit castigation by the Quran.
Unlike the non-Islamist Palestinian groups, Hamas makes no distinction between Judaism and Zionism, and uses Zionists and Jews synonymously and interchangeably. Judaism is a "religion that stipulates racism and hostility towards others in its books and incites to usurp unjustly Palestine under the slogan of the Holy Land." Zionism, according to this view, transforms these Jewish ideas into reality. Likewise, terrorism is an integral and inherent pillar of Judaism, which stems from the teaching of the Tora, and it finds its expression in Zionist massacres in Palestine.3
The portrayal of the Jews as powerful archenemies of Islam departs from traditional Islamic depictions of the Jews that are associated with cowardice, degradation and wretchedness. It has become a central element in Hamas' ideology and an important theme in the writings of all Islamist movements in the Middle East as part of a broader need to explain the current crisis of the Muslim world. It is particularly difficult within this context to explain Jewish or Zionist success vis-a-vis the Muslims since, according to Islamic tradition, the Jews were destined to humiliation and subjugation to Muslims after they had rejected the message of the Prophet. It is one thing to be defeated by a super-power such as the U.S., and a completely different situation to be defeated and ruled by the Jews, who had been an inferior minority in the past under the Muslim empire, and who are a small minority in the modern Middle East. The only way to explain this cognitive dissonance is to magnify the power and evil of the Jews, and thereby help to explain Muslim weakness.4

Modern Anti-Jewish Animosity

The modern anti-Jewish animosity of Islamic movements goes much further than traditional Islam. Although Muslims have always viewed Islam as a superior religion, superseding Judaism, they did not consider Judaism as a heresy, which required eradication, as long as it did not challenge Islam's rule. Historically, Muslims regarded Christianity as a greater threat than Judaism, and devoted greater attention to it in their polemical literature.5 However, due to the conflict with Israel, Judaism rather than Christianity has become the prime enemy for the Islamist organizations, drawing inspiration from anti-Jewish utterances in the Koran and from modern European anti-Semitism.
A good example of this vilification is the Hamas Charter, the movement's canonical document, which provides a picture of the Jews and Judaism drawn from the notorious anti-Semitic tract, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Article 22, for instance, describes the Jews as controlling the world media with their money and as having established secret organizations throughout the world - such as the Freemasons and Rotary Club - "for the destruction of societies and the fulfilment of the goals of Zionism." They have "caused revolutions all over the world," from France in 1789 to Russia in 1917 "in order to fulfil their goal." Likewise, "with their money, they seized control of the imperialist powers and pushed them to subdue many countries in order to squeeze their resources and spread their corruption." In addition, Hamas accuses the Jews of fomenting all-important wars in history. Most important, the Jews stood behind the outbreak of World War I, which 'eliminated' the Ottoman Empire, the "state of the Islamic Caliphate." The breakdown of Islamic unity opened the way for the establishment of "the Zionist entity" in Palestine. Likewise, they "were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state."
Of special significance are the wars, which the Jews have waged against Islam from the time of the Prophet. Accordingly, the Jews opposed the Prophet from the moment he arrived in Medina, in a desperate effort to prevent the spread of Islam, rejecting his generous offers and distorting his message. They tried to harm the Islamic umma (nation) and dominate it."6

Derogatory Descriptions of the Jews

In many of its publications Hamas employs harsh derogatory descriptions of the Jews, often taken from the Koran, such as "blood suckers," "brothers of apes," "killers of the prophets," "human pigs," and warmongers "the descendants of treachery and deceit," "butchers." They are a "cancer expanding" in the land of Palestine, "threatening the entire Islamic world." They are "spreading corruption" in the land of Islam. "Deceit and usury are stamped in their nature," and they are all "thieves, monopolists, and usurers."7
Almost every issue of the Hamas organ, Filastin al-Muslima contains articles enumerating the evil deeds and character of the Jews based on an analysis and exegetes of specific suras (chapters) from the Koran.
Particularly significant, in view of the historical record, are the equations, which Hamas makes between the Jews, the Zionists and the Nazis and the denial of the Holocaust. Hamas argues that Israel's actions exceed those of the Nazis, and that "the Jews represent Nazism in its most criminal form."8 Yet, following the Stockholm conference on the Holocaust, held in January 2000, Hamas declared that the conference had:

00017.gif

A Hamas promotional display at a West Bank university
A clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis . . .. The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred, ignoring the millions of dead European victims of Nazism during the war, clearly reveals the racist Zionist face, which believes in the superiority of the Jewish race over the rest of the nations.9

cAbd al-cAziz al-Rantisi, Hamas leader from Gaza, went further by denying the Holocaust, while simultaneously charging that "the Zionists were behind the Nazis' murder of many Jews," with the aim of intimidating and forcing them to immigrate to Palestine. Furthermore, he claimed that the Nazis "received tremendous financial aid from the Zionist banks and monopolies," prior to their seizure of power and that "this great financial aid helped the Nazis build the military and economic force needed to destroy Europe and annihilate millions." "When we compare the Zionists to the Nazis," Rantisi concluded, "We insult the Nazis," he concluded. 10
Reviewing the life of the late Pope John Paul II, the Hamas weekly al-Risala concluded that his 1998 letter, in which he apologized to the Jews for the Holocaust was his "greatest crime".11

Advocating Jihad

The perception of the conflict as a religious one brings Hamas to advocate jihad (holy war) as the only way to combat the Jews. Yet, in addition to practical considerations, Hamas endowed the jihad against the Jews with eschatological significance. The messianic element is relegated to secondary importance in the ideology of modern-day Sunni movements. However, because Hamas' main preoccupation is fighting a national-religious enemy, and possibly as a means to stave off calls for a compromise among the Palestinian masses, it resorts to messianic symbolism. Thus, the jihad against the Jews is a prerequisite for fulfilling God's promise to establish His rule over the earth. Citing the tradition (hadith) of the Saltbush, the Hamas Charter states that the final hour will not come until the day when the Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them.12
Lest the meaning of this passage remain unclear, Hamas author Mukhlis Barzaq pointed to the fact that the Prophet had killed more Jews than any other infidels during his wars. The Prophet revealed in a "firmly established Tradition" how the Jews should be handled if they betray the Muslims, and he ordered his followers to carry it out without any feelings of sorrow for this "detested group". He made it clear that the fate of the Jews should be "complete killing, total extermination and eradicating perdition (al-qatl al-tam wal-ibada al-kamila wal-fana' al-mahiq)." Perhaps equally significant, considering its intended readership, is the editorial in al-Fatih, Hamas' children's publication, appealing to the children of Iraq to pray to God and ask him "O God exterminate the Jews the tyrannical the usurpers" (Allahuma, ahlik al-yahud al-zalimin al-mughtasibin).13

Possibility of Change?

Following the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, a few Hamas activists in the West Bank voiced the possibility of future coexistence with Israel and the need to reconsider some of Hamas ideological tenets. While the possibility of changes in Hamas' ideology and attitudes should not be excluded, these views represent a very small minority within the movement's ranks. Moreover, shifts of attitudes and consciousness are usually slower than political or economic changes.
Concurrently, the harsh expressions made by Hamas should not be dismissed as mere rhetoric, as they serve to inculcate a state of mind among the movement's activists and followers as well as to socialize a younger generation of Palestinians. The horrors of the Twentieth Century have proved too often that extreme word leads to extreme deeds.

1. Ibrahim Quqa to al-Anba (Kuwait), 8 October 1988; "Hiwar shamil maca qiyadat Hamas," Filastin al-Muslima [FM], April 1990; Ila Filastin, February 1990; Nida al-Aqsa, January 1989.
2. Bernard Lewis, "The Roots of Muslim Rage," The Atlantic Monthly, September 1990, pp. 47-60.
3. FM, "Hiwar," April 1990.
4. For the spread of anti-Jewish sentiments in the Arab world, Bernard Lewis, Semites and Antisemites: An Inquiry into Conflict and Prejudice (New York: W.W. Norton, 1986); Rivka Yadlin, An Arrogant Oppressive Spirit: Anti-Zionism as Anti-Judaism in Egypt (Oxford: Pergamon Press, 1989).
5. Bernard Lewis, The Jews of Islam (Princeton: Princeton UP, 1981), p. 33.
6. FM, "Hiwar," April 1990.
7. See Handbills nos. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8, 14, 16, 31, 33, 65, 78, 87 in Shaul Mishal with Reuven Aharoni, Speaking stones: communiqués from the Intifada underground (Syracuse: Syracuse University Press, 1994).
8. The Hamas Charter (numerous editions), articles 20, 31. Other such statements include: "the Nazism of the Jews encompasses all of them," "the Nazi Jews," "Jewish Nazism," "Nazi Zionism," in Handbills nos. 5, 6, 8, 11, 12, 13, 14, 25, and 65.
9. Reuven Paz, 'Palestinian Holocaust Denial,' The Washington Institute: Policy Watch Number 255, 21 April 2000. The original article appeared in Arabic in Hamas official website, Palestine-info.org, and was not translated to English, presumably because the editors realized it could harm Hamas reputation among non-Arabs.
10. Hamas weekly al-Risala (Gaza), 21 August 2003. See similar claims in FM, September 1996.
11. Al-Risala, 7 April 2005.
12. Hamas Charter, articles 13, 9, and 7. According to Islamic tradition the Jews will flee from the Muslims on that day and "when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees, the stones and trees will say O Moslems, O slave of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the gharkad tree, (saltbush) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
13. Barzaq, Al-wacd min al-Khaybar ila al-Quds in Palestine-info.org, chapter 8; al-Fateh, no. 8 in www.al-fateh.net.
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Just wanted to point out how awkward and futile it is for this writer, an Ashkenazi (European) Jew in Tel Aviv to tag Hamas (full-blooded Semites) as anti-semitic. It would be laughable, but it's really not.
 
Chi13

Chi13

Well-known member
ICMag Donor
Cannavore said:

Summary of the 1988 Hamas charter​

  • Article 1 describes Hamas as an Islamic Resistance Movement with an ideological programme of Islam.[1]
  • Article 2 of Hamas' Charter defines Hamas as a "universal movement" and "one of the branches of the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine".[1][30][40][41]
  • Article 3 the Movement consists of "Muslims who have given their allegiance to Allah".[1]
  • Article 4 the Movement "welcomes every Muslim who embraces its faith, ideology, follows its programme, keeps its secrets, and wants to belong to its ranks and carry out the duty," [1]
  • Article 5 Demonstrates its Salafist roots and connections to the Muslim brotherhood, declaring Islam as its official religion and the Koran as its constitution.[1]
  • Article 6 Hamas is uniquely Palestinian,[1] and "strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned". It claims that the world will descend into chaos and war without Islam, quoting Muhammad Iqbal.[1][30]
  • Article 7 describes Hamas as "one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders" and claims continuity with the followers of the religious and nationalist hero Izz ad-Din al-Qassam from the Great Arab Revolt as well as the Palestinian combatants of the First Arab-Israeli War. It ends with Sahih al-Bukhari's hadith Muslim 2922, suggesting that the Day of Judgment would not come until the Muslims fight and kill the Jews.[1][41]
  • Article 8 The Hamas document reiterates the Muslim Brotherhood's slogan of "Allah is its goal, the Prophet is the model, the Qur'an its constitution, jihad its path, and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes."[1][30]
  • Article 9 adapts Muslim Brotherhood's vision to connect the Palestinian crisis with the Islamic solution and advocates "fighting against the false, defeating it and vanquishing it so that justice could prevail".[1]
  • Article 11 Palestine is sacred (waqf) for all Muslims for all time, and it cannot be relinquished by anyone.[1]
  • Article 12 affirms that "Nationalism, from the point of view of the Islamic Resistance Movement, is part of the religious creed".[1]
  • Article 13 There is no negotiated settlement possible. Jihad is the only answer.[1]
  • Article 14 The liberation of Palestine is the personal duty of every Palestinian.[1]
  • Article 15 "The day that enemies usurp part of Muslim land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Muslim". It states the history of the Crusades into Muslim lands and says the "Palestinian problem is a religious problem".[1]
  • Article 16 Describes how to go about educating future generations, with an emphasis on religious studies and Islamic history.[1]
  • Article 17 Declares the role of women in Islamic society to be the "maker of men". It condemns Western organizations such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, and intelligence agencies as "saboteurs" for promoting subversive ideas on women.[1]
  • Article 18 Defines the role of women as homemakers and child-rearers, providing education and moral guidance to men.[1]
  • Article 19 Promotes the value of art while promoting Islamic art over "Jahili" art forms.[1]
  • Article 20 Calls for action "by the people as a single body" against "a vicious enemy which acts in a way similar to Nazism, making no differentiation between man and woman, between children and old people".[1]
  • Article 21 Promotes "mutual social responsibility" and urges members "to consider the interests of the masses as their own personal interests".[1]
  • Article 22 Makes sweeping claims about Jewish influence and power.[1][42] It specifically claims that the Jews were responsible for instigating multiple revolutions and wars, including the French Revolution, World War I, and the Russian Revolution. It also claims that Jews control the United Nations, and that they are supported by "the imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East".[1]
  • Article 23 Expresses support for all Islamic movements "if they reveal good intentions and dedication to Allah".[1]
  • Article 24 Prohibits "slandering or speaking ill of individuals or groups".[1]
  • Article 25 Discourages Islamic movements from seeking foreign support and expresses support for other Palestinian nationalist movements.[1]
  • Article 26 Allows consultation with other Palestinian movements that are neutral in international affairs.[1]
  • Article 27 Praises the PLO but condemns its secularism.[1]
  • Article 28 Conspiracy charges against Israel and the whole of the Jewish people: "Israel, Judaism and Jews".[1][42] It claims that "Zionist organizations" aim to destroy society through moral corruption and eliminating Islam, and are responsible for drug trafficking and alcoholism.[1]
  • Article 30: Calls on "writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world" to pursue jihad.[1]
  • Article 31 Describes Hamas as "a humanistic movement", which "takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions". "Under the wing of Islam", it is possible for Islam, Christianity and Judaism "to coexist in peace and quiet with each other" provided that members of other religions do not dispute the sovereignty of Islam in the region.[1]
  • Article 32 Hamas condemns as co-plotters the "imperialistic powers" seeking to corrupt all Arab countries one by one, leaving Palestine as the final bastion of Islam.[42] States that the Zionists' plan is set forth in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and that they intend to expand their control from the Nile to the Euphrates.[1][43]
  • Article 33 calls upon Muslims worldwide to work for liberation of Palestine.[1]
  • Article 34 represents the Temple Mount in Jerusalem as the axis mundi, the sacred point where divine cosmology and temporal history meet.[44] Along with Article 35 it compares Israel with an imperialist-colonialist movement. The articles reflect and draws upon past examples of Crusader and Mongol invasions, both of which initially were successful but were eventually repelled.[45][46]
  • Article 36 outlines the goals of Hamas.[47]

Statements about Israel​

The Preamble to the 1988 Charter stated: ″Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam invalidates it, just as it invalidated others before it″.



they call for the destruction of the jewish state and have publicy supported a two state solution based on the 1967 borders multiple times. im missing the part where you say they say they want to kill every jew on the planet.


i would want the country that stole my country destroyed too.


how do you build a democracy upon the bodies of tens of thousands of dead children?
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Assuming this link is correct part of article 7 reads:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem

I avoid this thread but honestly anyone supporting Hamas is supporting a genocidal organisation who suppress women and use rape as a weapon. Support for the Palestinian people of course is separate, but Hamas is an organisation that does not deserve support in any way.

I can honestly see both sides in this awful conflict. The treatment of Palestinians over decades is deplorable, but so was the attack on Israel.

As someone on the political Left, I find I can't support either side. I just hope there's a political solution somewhere down the track.
 
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