War

[moose eater]

It's certainly possible (likely even) that with a better understanding of facts about Ms Corrie and the circumstances of her life and death I would think differently than I do now. I mean, I had to google her name and read her Wikipedia page to form that conclusion.

edit: That I suggested she might be considered by anyone as a martyr has less to do her, specifically, and more to do with the comments I referred to in video linked earlier of one of Hamas' spokespeople, Ghazi Hamad, who said, "We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs." I know of nothing that links Ms Corrie and Hamas in any way, other than I imagine Hamas might find it useful to refer to her as a martyr. This is mere speculation.

Regarding meaningful conditions and requirements upon which aid to Israel would be contingent, I think Congress does have the power to make them real. This is what I'm thinking of, (and yes I am well aware of Iran Contra, and how it undermines my argument, but I'm making it anyway) the Boland Amendment.

Several pages back I linked to some of Rachel Corrie's journaling, courtesy of her site and foundation in her name.

There are many informative sites or resources about her, and she was present as part of a human rights and peace group which had a contingent in Palestine at that time.

It's also possible to locate info online re. the Peace Flotilla that IDF and Mossad raided, which had a Code Pink contingent onboard, intending to breech the Palestinian blockade put into effect by Israel (and also illegal under international law).

Rob Mulford wasn't on that boat, but knew another who was.

People who cause physical injury to peace people are among the lowliest of scum on the Earth, and it's often been exposed in real time by those (martyrs?) who were willing to confront the criminal zealotry in order to set a stage where the bullies of the world are willing to play out there real sociopathic selves for the cameras, sometimes speeding up some amount of change.

 

[GenghisKush]

Several pages back I linked to some of Rachel Corrie's journaling, courtesy of her site and foundation in her name.

There are many informative sites or resources about her, and she was present as part of a human rights and peace group which had a contingent in Palestine at that time.

It's also possible to locate info online re. the Peace Flotilla that IDF and Mossad raided, which had a Code Pink contingent onboard, intending to breech the Palestinian blockade put into effect by Israel (and also illegal under international law).

Rob Mulford wasn't on that boat, but knew another who was.

People who cause physical injury to peace people are among the lowliest of scum on the Earth, and it's often been exposed in real time by those (martyrs?) who were willing to confront the criminal zealotry in order to set a stage where the bullies of the world are willing to play out there real sociopathic selves for the cameras, sometimes speeding up some amount of change.

I found it. And I'm going to spend some time reading more and thinking on this. I'm just now realizing I was born two years before Ms Corrie, and I was in school at the time of her death and very much invested in ignoring anything Israel (or military), as best I could, for personal reasons.

The bullies, the martyrs, the sociopaths, the lowliest of scum on the Earth, the innocent, the wise, the fools, the banally evil, the you, the me; we're all human beings. I think it is important that we keep reminding each other of this/we must not forget this.

 

[moose eater]

I found it. And I'm going to spend some time reading more and thinking on this. I'm just now realizing I was born two years before Ms Corrie, and I was in school at the time of her death and very much invested in ignoring anything Israel (or military), as best I could, for personal reasons.

The bullies, the martyrs, the sociopaths, the lowliest of scum on the Earth, the innocent, the wise, the fools, the banally evil, the you, the me; we're all human beings. I think it is important that we keep reminding each other of this/we must not forget this.

I agree, though it's very difficult for me to give much slack to the Jeffrey Dahmers and Idi Amins (or Netanyahus) of the world.

A huge part of me glories in the demise of such cretins.

"There is not one righteous, no, not one."

 

[GenghisKush]

I agree, though it's very difficult for me to give much slack to the Jeffrey Dahmers and Idi Amins (or Netanyahus) of the world.

A huge part of me glories in the demise of such cretins.

"There is not one righteous, no, not one."

Yeah, agreed. It's a terrible thing to consider the humanity of such men and I think because it is so terrible to consider, dehumanization becomes a sort of defense mechanism. (I have no expertise in any field connected to this, this is stoned dorm room-level philosophy/speculation from me rn.)

 

[moose eater]

Yeah, agreed. It's a terrible thing to consider the humanity of such men and I think because it is so terrible to consider, dehumanization becomes a sort of defense mechanism. (I have no expertise in any field connected to this, this is stoned dorm room-level philosophy/speculation from me rn.)

And other times, people who behave as they do, simply aren't all that human.

Look up recidivism rates for sociopathic anti-social personality disordered 'people'. Including mass murderers like Netanyahu... Or GW even.

Some engage in such heinous behaviors for thrills, some for ego, and some for a combination of reasons including the glory of their God or statehood..

 

[Lipperstolz]

The Latest from Gaza and Middle East

Israel-Gaza Situation Report: Push Into Heart Of Gaza City Looms, Civilians Flee

Thousands of Gaza City residents fled south through a 'humanitarian corridor' ahead of the IDF's push directly into the heart of Gaza City.

www.thedrive.com

 

[GenghisKush]

And other times, people who behave as they do, simply aren't all that human.

Look up recidivism rates for sociopathic anti-social personality disordered 'people'. Including mass murderers like Netanyahu... Or GW even.

Some engage in such heinous behaviors for thrills, some for ego, and some for a combination of reasons including the glory of their God or statehood..

Kissinger yet lives, and all of humanity is diminished. This is who we are.

edit: which brings to mind this text, which has haunted me since I first read it in 2005

DPs, or displaced persons, were the survivors of death and POW camps -- Jews, Poles, Russians, Hungarians, refugees of virtually every nationality who either could not return home or no longer had any homes to return to. They numbered in the hundreds of thousands in Europe, and they were housed in huge temporary DP camps. Several such refugee camps, converted German Army barracks, were near Munich.

"We studied up a little on military law, and there was nothing on the books preventing us from delivering suspects for additional debriefing to the DPs," Weiss recalls. He says he's not sure where the idea originated, who first put it into motion, or how widespread it was. "Whoever first came up with this, I honestly don't know. I don't think they'd own up to it anyway."

While it was perfectly legal under military law to hand over suspects for further questioning to DPs, says Benjamin Ferencz, who was a lead U.S. prosecutor at the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunals in 1945 and 1947, knowingly delivering suspects for execution was not. And of course the DPs were not interested in extracting information.

Ferencz, who today is 85 and lives in New York, cautions against making sweeping armchair moral judgments. "Someone who was not there could never really grasp how unreal the situation was," he says. "I once saw DPs beat an SS man and then strap him to the steel gurney of a crematorium. They slid him in the oven, turned on the heat and took him back out. Beat him again, and put him back in until he was burnt alive. I did nothing to stop it. I suppose I could have brandished my weapon or shot in the air, but I was not inclined to do so. Does that make me an accomplice to murder?"

Ferencz -- who went on to a distinguished legal career, became a founder of the International Criminal Court and is today probably the leading authority on military jurisprudence of the era -- cannot specifically address Weiss's actions. But he says it's important to recall that military legal norms at the time permitted a host of flexibilities that wouldn't fly today. "You know how I got witness statements?" he says. "I'd go into a village where, say, an American pilot had parachuted and been beaten to death and line everyone one up against the wall. Then I'd say, 'Anyone who lies will be shot on the spot.' It never occurred to me that statements taken under duress would be invalid."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/21/AR2005072101680_5.html

 

[moose eater]

Kissinger yet lives, and all of humanity is diminished. This is who we are.

edit: which brings to mind this text, which has haunted me since I first read it in 2005

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/21/AR2005072101680_5.html

Kissinger is still renowned in the US as a prominent statesman, as opposed to the sociopath who was/is wanted in parts of Central and South America for questioning regarding all sorts of unethical and illegal behavior, including the Allende' dethroning and the propping up of the murderer Pinochet. A corporate-sponsored shuffling of the world's deck of cards if ever there was.

Gosh, why would anyone want to topple the Twin Towers, what with all the ethics and scrutiny we as a Country apply in our choosing of 'friends' when deciding who to arm or fund.

 

[GenghisKush]

Kissinger is still renowned in the US as a prominent statesman, as opposed to the sociopath who was/is wanted in parts of Central and South America for questioning regarding all sorts of unethical and illegal behavior, including the Allende' dethroning and the propping up of the murderer Pinochet. A corporate-sponsored shuffling of the world's deck of cards if ever there was.

Gosh, why would anyone want to topple the Twin Towers, what with all the ethics and scrutiny we as a Country apply in our choosing of 'friends' when deciding who to arm or fund.

We ought to be doing a better job of holding human beings to account for such crimes.

Letter to NY Times re: Bin Laden's Killing

By Benjamin B. Ferencz
published: May 2011
source: New York Times
To the Editor:

Your superb report “Behind the Hunt for Bin Laden” leaves key questions unanswered. Jubilation over the death of the most hunted mass murderer is understandable, but was it really justifiable self-defense, or was it premeditated illegal assassination?

The Nuremberg trials earned worldwide respect by giving Hitler’s worst henchmen a fair trial so that truth would be revealed and justice under law would prevail. Secret nonjudicial decisions based on political or military considerations undermine democracy. The public is entitled to know the complete truth.

BENJAMIN B. FERENCZ
New Rochelle, N.Y., May 3, 2011

The writer was a prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials.

Benjamin Ferencz - Articles & Lectures

Articles and Lectures by Benjamin B. Ferencz

web.archive.org

 

[moose eater]

We ought to be doing a better job of holding human beings to account for such crimes.

Benjamin Ferencz - Articles & Lectures

Articles and Lectures by Benjamin B. Ferencz

web.archive.org

In Kissinger's case, as with Israel at the UN, he was shielded from culpability by a Country that refuses jurisdiction to the World Court, but has no real hesitation in referring others there.

That ol' American Exceptionalism that makes our shit smell like roses, and literally beyond the grasp of any real trial at all.

Ordained and protected hypocrites by birth.

Almost like we're 'God's chosen', no.

 

[RobFromTX]

Killed by a hand grenade....in a birthday present........just two days after his chief called out the stalemate

I wonder how that happened

Top Ukrainian military aide killed by 'birthday present grenade' that left son, 13, seriously injured

Major Gennadiy Chastyakov opened a gift on his birthday when 'an explosive device went off inside'

ca.finance.yahoo.com

 

[Microbeman]

I agree, though it's very difficult for me to give much slack to the Jeffrey Dahmers and Idi Amins (or Netanyahus) of the world.

A huge part of me glories in the demise of such cretins.

"There is not one righteous, no, not one."

There once was a healthy price on Idi's head and a friend and I researched collecting it. Alas the travel cost and procurement of weaponry overseas were our fantasy's undoing. It would have been win-win, otherwise.

 

[moose eater]

There once was a healthy price on Idi's head and a friend and I researched collecting it. Alas the travel cost and procurement of weaponry overseas were our fantasy's undoing. It would have been win-win, otherwise.

A member of an international volunteer work team at the hippie school in the Yukon Territory Summer of 1978, 'Beaver', Bharat, aka 'Bobby', a drummer by hobby, was from the UK, where he and his family had gone as refugees seeking asylum, as they were on what I callously joked was "Idi Amin's Top Ten Most Edible List". Though I doubt that in reality his family ranked THAT high.

Bobby was laid back, and took with grace and grins, my somewhat thoughtless humored condensing of the motive for his family's relocation, and leaving their homeland behind.

We climbed a mountain or 2 together, along with a number of other members from his volunteer work team, one of whom I tracked down and contacted when I was back in The Netherlands, Fall of 1991. Cornelius T. He was a string-bean, lanky, tall and skinny Dutch flat-lander from Northern Holland, who had the uncanny ability of relatively easily running both up and down some impressive slopes/grades near Carcross, Yukon Territory, despite growing up in a place where a hill was newsworthy. Never figured that one out.

 

[moose eater]

There once was a healthy price on Idi's head and a friend and I researched collecting it. Alas the travel cost and procurement of weaponry overseas were our fantasy's undoing. It would have been win-win, otherwise.

I had similar thoughts of mercenary labor in Central America in the early 1980's when the School of the Americas-trained guerrillas were raping and murdering nuns at missions down in El Salvador and elsewhere, among other atrocities committed by 'our freedom fighters'.

I figured, once again, that the US was supporting and arming the wrong people.

Briefly considered minimally balancing out the influence of my questionably spent tax dollars. Didn't go. Probably a good thing.

 

[GenghisKush]

Kissinger yet lives, and all of humanity is diminished. This is who we are.

I wonder what John Donne would think of Henry Kissinger.

No man is an island,
Entire of itself;
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.

If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less,
As well as if a promontory were:
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were.

Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.

 

[moose eater]

I wonder what John Donne would think of Henry Kissinger.

That he had no concept of his connectedness to the universe and was blinded by nationalism and anti-communism to the point of not seeming to care about the misery and dishonesty he inflicted. Why the movers and shakers liked him. A diplomatic button-man for sociopaths in power.

Gry would be happy to share intricate details of how Kissinger came to be a player, I'm sure.

 

[GenghisKush]

That he had no concept of his connectedness to the universe and was blinded by nationalism and anti-communism to the point of not seeming to care about the misery and dishonesty he inflicted. Why the movers and shakers liked him. A diplomatic button-man for sociopaths in power.

Gry would be happy to share intricate details of how Kissinger came to be a player, I'm sure.

I was wondering whether Donne's statement that "Any man's death diminishes me," would include Kissinger or not. Surely he never envisioned a single man whose account bears the debt of so many lives and so much misery.

Because Kissinger, too, is involved in mankind.

 

[moose eater]

I was wondering whether Donne's statement that "Any man's death diminishes me," would include Kissinger or not. Surely he never envisioned a single man whose account bears the debt of so many lives and so much misery.

Because Kissinger, too, is involved in mankind.

I'd have to have a whole lot more blood in my heart for it to bleed, and water in my eyes, to cry for the demise of those like Kissinger.

And there's an incredibly LONG-ASS list of people of similar disposition as Kissinger. We've mentioned a number of them in this thread.

At our home, when karma falls heavily on folks of that sort, we call those 'beer and pizza days' and break out the good hashish.

 

[GenghisKush]

I'd have to have a whole lot more blood in my heart for it to bleed, and water in my eyes, to cry for the demise of those like Kissinger.

And there's an incredibly LONG-ASS list of people of similar disposition as Kissinger. We've mentioned a number of them in this thread.

At our home, when karma falls heavily on folks of that sort, we call those 'beer and pizza days' and break out the good hashish.

 

[moose eater]