War

[GOT_BUD?]

They are paid by Israel to say that shit. Aipac is the largest lobbying group in the country. You practically have to pledge fealty to Israel in order to become a US politician.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/mark-pocan-aipac

 

[Cannavore]

 

[Lipperstolz]

Palestine Hamas Kindergarten

 

[mean mr.mustard]

Apparently that's okay.

Lobbing rockets into random innocent people is fine as long as it's not Israel doing it.

I'm learning a lot about double standards and justifiable hatred this week.

 

[GenghisKush]

Shot: "Everything we do is justified."



Chaser

 

[GenghisKush]

If I might interject, Genghis, I think you might have misinterpreted PetePrice's comment.

It was my understanding in reading his reply, that he was referencing the various players in Gaza, etc. as not giving a rat's ass what anyone else wants. And I would assert further, that Israel has used extortionist language in the past where even support from the US gov. is concerned.

That was me trying to be a fair-minded referee.

And yes, more people need to be informed, and perhaps active, where the plight of Palestine is concerned.

Some time I may share more stories, having yet another more immediate neighbor, now retired, who previously worked a very highly skilled technical job for a major corp., which also happens to be a major player with DoD contracts, though my more immediate neighbor flies the political affiliation of 'Progressive,' and his job years ago sometimes involved uncanny timing for major events and his whereabouts, to the extent I sometimes wondered if he didn't have a secondary employer that was maybe less spoken of.

He was in Turkey the day and night before GW's Shock & Awe began, and was in Panama immediately after, or even overlapping in time with US Special Forces and CIA tidying up Noriega's files in his office, presumably to avoid embarrassing info., perhaps having to do with the fabled drugs for guns during Reagan's Iran-Contra period.

At one point my more immediate neighbor was in Israel. He reported that there was a film crew there doing a documentary re. Palestine, which had the crew traveling daily into the West Bank/Gaza.

The nature of the documentary was not the sort that was sympathetic or flattering to Israel's version of Apartheid, and my neighbor stated that one particular ranking CO at the crossing the crew used had taken a special dislike to the Director, for somewhat obvious reasons; drawing international attention to the crimes against humanity carried out there on a daily basis.

My neighbor reported that one day that specific, peeved CO shot the Director in the head.

I wasn't there, but the neighbor in reference is no flake, and I've never known him to fabricate.

Now look at the barriers faced by Rachel Corrie's family in their pursuit of justice for the IDF bulldozing their daughter. And if you do even limited research into that 'trail of tears', be ready to be stunned, and to give your eyes plenty of 'rolling exercise.'

There's also more to the story of the 85-year-old Palestinian woman referenced by Rob Mulford in his Guest Opinion piece I posted numerous pages ago, my more distant neighbor, involving the risks a Palestinian takes, should they enter an automobile and drive even seemingly toward a check point at the Israeli fences. Even if they're just an aging octogenarian in need of hospital treatment.

There's no doubt in my mind that Israel is a Zionist Fascist government, and for a long time now... Protected at the UN by the United States' veto authority on the UN Security Council.

But it's FAR from the first time the US has supported scumbag governments for various benefits... The Shaw of Iran, Pinochet, Samosa, Baby Doc, and many more... 'Dealing with the Devil.'

Carry on...

Hi Moose. I appreciate you taking the time to write these words; I am always glad when I get to consider your thoughts.
I get it: you want to promote open exchange of ideas. You took the time to share your perspective, because it is apparently important to you, so I'll unblock the guy out of respect for that intent (I've blocked only 2 people, now I'm down to 1). However, I think my initial read on his comment was right. I sensed manipulative intent in the message, (begin by negging the target, then ...) several assertions that were false on their face, and re-reading the comment that sense is only stronger. I'll go back to blocking him the old-fashioned way, like I do w Rob, by reading his comments, then shaking my head, then whispering to myself, "What a jackass."
I'm having a hard time summoning much sympathy for Rachel Corrie herself, to be honest. Her family must be enduring hell because of her choices. Martyrdom is a racket.
Israel has under Netanyahu become a fascist apartheid state. Whatever aid USA offers Israel must depend on a condition: that Israel must fully protect the fundamental rights of the Palestinian people. This is the realizable political change that USA people who genuinely want peace ought to be fighting for. This is my opinion.

 

[Cannavore]

Apparently that's okay.

Lobbing rockets into random innocent people is fine as long as it's not Israel doing it.

I'm learning a lot about double standards and justifiable hatred this week.

israel targeted civilians first which morphed hamas into a "terrorist" organization after being founded as a charity organization. palestinians have the right to defend themselves by any means necessary.

 

[Cannavore]

Christian Armenians that live in Jerusalem part of the Hamas boogeyman too?

 

[GenghisKush]

First rule of Foreign Policy is remove humanity. It is strictly about power.

That's why "those guys" allies are only willing to give them just enough weapons and ammo to be a pain in the ass to Israel, not actually defeat Israel. Their sole goal is to keep Israel from attaining more power in the region.

I think this is also why BAMN/the ends justify the means worldviews are promoted so broadly: they necessarily lead to escalation of violence and dehumanization. I think that so long as we're ignoring the humanity of any people involved in this conflict, things will only get worse and we will slide deeper into the abyss.

 

[PetePrice]

Hi Moose. I appreciate you taking the time to write these words; I am always glad when I get to consider your thoughts.
I get it: you want to promote open exchange of ideas. You took the time to share your perspective, because it is apparently important to you, so I'll unblock the guy out of respect for that intent (I've blocked only 2 people, now I'm down to 1). However, I think my initial read on his comment was right. I sensed manipulative intent in the message, (begin by negging the target, then ...) several assertions that were false on their face, and re-reading the comment that sense is only stronger. I'll go back to blocking him the old-fashioned way, like I do w Rob, by reading his comments, then shaking my head, then whispering to myself, "What a jackass."
I'm having a hard time summoning much sympathy for Rachel Corrie herself, to be honest. Her family must be enduring hell because of her choices. Martyrdom is a racket.
Israel has under Netanyahu become a fascist apartheid state. Whatever aid USA offers Israel must depend on a condition: that Israel must fully protect the fundamental rights of the Palestinian people. This is the realizable political change that USA people who genuinely want peace ought to be fighting for. This is my opinion.

you know what, go f**k yourself you self righteous t**t you don't know me or my intent, do I need your approval or something? I'd of thought it self evident what I had wrote ie Israel does not give one fuck for our views (why I need to explain that IDK)

and then you write -

I'm having a hard time summoning much sympathy for Rachel Corrie herself, to be honest. Her family must be enduring hell because of her choices. Martyrdom is a racket.

Don't just shake your head but give it a big friggin wobble. I'd say they'd be enduring hell because a tank crushed her for giving a shit about people and their homes!! do you condemn all settlers fighting for land that is stolen? are they not martyrs too?

So you want peace but think that someone who was crushed to death by a Israeli tank for wanting the same thing is a Martyr? righty oh... better if you had me on ignore as I now think your an utter fraud and a d**khead.

 

[PetePrice]

Apparently that's okay.

Lobbing rockets into random innocent people is fine as long as it's not Israel doing it.

I'm learning a lot about double standards and justifiable hatred this week.

Justifies all them kids being killed doesn't it you crank. How many them rockets got through and killed? You are full of shit fella. We all know Hamas are bad ffs.

 

[GenghisKush]

no need to make any of this personal, Pete. we're discussing ideas and not identity.

edit: I apologize for any distress my words might have caused you.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

israel targeted civilians first which morphed hamas into a "terrorist" organization after being founded as a charity organization. palestinians have the right to defend themselves by any means necessary.

"First" is obviously the sticking point here.

 

[Cannavore]

 

[mean mr.mustard]

Justifies all them kids being killed doesn't it you crank. How many them rockets got through and killed? You are full of shit fella. We all know Hamas are bad ffs.

I have been ignoring you and after Genghis replied to you I looked.

Stop addressing me for I have no interest in interacting with you forever more.

 

[moose eater]

Hi Moose. I appreciate you taking the time to write these words; I am always glad when I get to consider your thoughts.
I get it: you want to promote open exchange of ideas. You took the time to share your perspective, because it is apparently important to you, so I'll unblock the guy out of respect for that intent (I've blocked only 2 people, now I'm down to 1). However, I think my initial read on his comment was right. I sensed manipulative intent in the message, (begin by negging the target, then ...) several assertions that were false on their face, and re-reading the comment that sense is only stronger. I'll go back to blocking him the old-fashioned way, like I do w Rob, by reading his comments, then shaking my head, then whispering to myself, "What a jackass."
I'm having a hard time summoning much sympathy for Rachel Corrie herself, to be honest. Her family must be enduring hell because of her choices. Martyrdom is a racket.
Israel has under Netanyahu become a fascist apartheid state. Whatever aid USA offers Israel must depend on a condition: that Israel must fully protect the fundamental rights of the Palestinian people. This is the realizable political change that USA people who genuinely want peace ought to be fighting for. This is my opinion.

I doubt that Rachel Corrie believed the cat operator would do what he did. Seriously. In her journal writings it's clear that she was already overwhelmed by the occurrences of violence, suppression, etc. That didn't read to me as words of a 20+-year-old woman ready to be smushed to death.

The fact that the Israeli courts saw fit to shield the dozer operator (and IDF) by claiming that her death occurred "during combat operations" clearly illuminates the manipulative mind-set; they dubbed the illegal bull-dozing of Palestinian homes as 'combat operations'. An entity has to be more than a bit self-serving and nauseatingly full of themselves for them to buy into that clumsy sleight-of-hand.

Not that there aren't gobs of nations that have made equally transparent, nationalistic, and cowardly determinations aimed at shielding themselves from culpability.

Regarding the conditions of support, I was under the impression that such conditions already exist, but are simply not enforced.

 

[Microbeman]

A two state solution cannot be possible when one state gets smaller and smaller and no implementation of the Oslo accord, there's systemic persecution of Palestinians by Israeli's, oh yes but it's just defending itself right!?!? maybe they have all had enough of oppression and figure that action no matter the cost is all that is left as it can't really be worse than what they already experience.



How many need to friggin die? Maybe the US should remind them of the steps? but why now as they haven't before and that's why we are where we are ffs. The Israelis are acting worse than the Serbs and that's saying something.

Which side (fascist state) took out their leader for signing up for peace? and currently has someone who was glad it happened and threatened Rabin before his death?

Netanyahu led a mock funeral with a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally prior to his assassination. He is a class A trump.

 

[GenghisKush]

I doubt that Rachel Corrie believed the cat operator would do what he did. Seriously. In her journal writings it's clear that she was already overwhelmed by the occurrences of violence, suppression, etc. That didn't read to me as words of a 20+-year-old woman ready to be smushed to death.

The fact that the Israeli courts saw fit to shield the dozer operator (and IDF) by claiming that her death occurred "during combat operations" clearly illuminates the manipulative mind-set; they dubbed the illegal bull-dozing Palestinian homes as combat operations. An entity has to be more than a bit self-serving and nauseatingly full of themselves for them to buy into that clumsy sleight-of-hand.

Not that there aren't gobs of nations that have made equally transparent, nationalistic, and cowardly determinations aimed at shielding themselves from culpability.

Regarding the conditions of support, I was under the impression that such conditions already exist, but are simply not enforced.

It's certainly possible (likely even) that with a better understanding of facts about Ms Corrie and the circumstances of her life and death I would think differently than I do now. I mean, I had to google her name and read her Wikipedia page to form that conclusion.

edit: That I suggested she might be considered by anyone as a martyr has less to do her, specifically, and more to do with the comments I referred to in video linked earlier of one of Hamas' spokespeople, Ghazi Hamad, who said, "We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs." I know of nothing that links Ms Corrie and Hamas in any way, other than I imagine Hamas might find it useful to refer to her as a martyr. This is mere speculation.

Regarding meaningful conditions and requirements upon which aid to Israel would be contingent, I think Congress does have the power to make them real. This is what I'm thinking of, (and yes I am well aware of Iran Contra, and how it undermines my argument, but I'm making it anyway) the Boland Amendment.

 

[moose eater]

First rule of Foreign Policy is remove humanity. It is strictly about power.

That's why "those guys" allies are only willing to give them just enough weapons and ammo to be a pain in the ass to Israel, not actually defeat Israel. Their sole goal is to keep Israel from attaining more power in the region.

Israel supposedly has, I believe, the 4th most powerful military in the world, if the piece linked to earlier is correct.

Hezbollah has a much more significant military presence not too awful far away, but even they are a mere shadow in contrast to Israel.

As a humanitarian note at a pot-growing site, it was approximately 23 years ago that the hash farmers in the Bekaa Valley, who'd been the source of corrupt pocket cash for the unethical people in their government as a result of the UN's misguided crop substitution program, that saw the farmers frequently lose their farms and family cores, making them the losers in that program. (like many or most failed crop substitution programs sponsored in places that grow recreational vices).

So the farmers in the Valley largely, or in part and parcel, chose to return to farming hashish, much to the dismay of the bureaucrats, many of whom had pilfered from the funds that had initially been intended to aid the farmers.

The Lebanese gov't responded with a plan to fly in helicopters and other armed gear and eradicate the cannabis crop.

Hezbollah, which I understand to be predominantly anti-dope by virtue of their faith, but who had a significant base in that area, informed the Lebanese gov't that if the gov followed through on their plans to engage in armed eradication, Hezbollah would shoot them out of the sky.

Score 1 for the hash farmers in the impoverished (esp at that time) Bekaa Valley.

That public service action was brought to us by Hezbollah.

 

[Microbeman]

mystical Beings

or mythical