The Haze discussion thread

[TheDarkStorm]

yes of course using the best genetics increases your chances of finding keepers doh ,
it still takes numbers to find exceptional plants ,

did nevil find the best there was to find in those 10 seeds ??

how do you know there wasnt better , im sure if he grew more he would find something else , he worked with what he had but i doubt he would have passed up growing more to find better ,

and im 100 % sure he would agree ,
he knew growing more plants increased his chances of finding keepers , he said it himself and did it in practice ,

how is it you dont realize this hempy ??


you never answered my question ,
if numbers dont make any difference , how is it you didnt find another queeny yet ??

should only have to grow 10 seeds and poof , there she will be ... right??
why are folks only finding keepers in the odd pack of seeds if numbers dont matter??

if numbers dont matter wouldnt a 20 pack be full of keepers ??

This is what I find abit weird donald because most stuff at one point used to give keepers from one pack....it was the reason a certain sized seed pack was made....I dont understand this logic of having to buy multiple packs to find a decent plant...clearly somthing has changed yet some breeders are still using the old model seed pack size.
An it would be nice if evryone stoped jumping on hempys back...if he choses to belive something that from his own experiences he believes to be right he can do that....thats his opinion...thers no point in evryone trying to make him belive their veiw points...just agree to disagree and move on guys.

 

[@hempy]

Can you give some examples of what you consider to be f1....also I dont get how nl is related to haze...ones a afghani indica supposedly with a touch of Hawaiian tho I heard of it being based on some plant called clay on sticks over 30 years back...an the other haze A for example may be made up of a couple of different sativas...so ?

If a breeder labels there seed F1 i call it an F1 and if i inbreed that line i call it a F2.

If i make a hybrid from 2 unrelated lines i call it an F1 also.

But if we are to go by the Definition of what an F1 is then we go by this


An F1 Hybrid (also known as filial 1 hybrid) is the first filial generation of offspring of distinctly different parental types.[1] F1 hybrids are used in genetics, and in selective breeding, where it may appear as F1 crossbreed. The term is sometimes written with a subscript, as F1 hybrid. Subsequent generations are called F2, F3, etc.
The offspring of distinctly different parental types produce a new, uniform phenotype with a combination of characteristics from the parents. In fish breeding, those parents frequently are two closely related fish species, while in plant and animal breeding the parents often are two inbred lines.
Gregor Mendel focused on patterns of inheritance and the genetic basis for variation. In his cross-pollination experiments involving two true-breeding, or homozygous, parents, Mendel found that the resulting F1 generation were heterozygous and consistent. The offspring showed a combination of the phenotypes from each parent that were genetically dominant. Mendel's discoveries involving the F1 and F2 generations laid the foundation for modern genetics.

 

[Elmer Bud]

Wat was you trying to grow EB....Hempy sent you 100's of seeds...thats very nice of you Hempy...bummer they never worked out tho...but still a very nice gesture.

You`re right TDS .
At the time I was a noob and asked Hempy for Thai seeds .
He eventually sent me a shit ton of Mr Nice f2 . Black Widow , Nev Haze and G13 Sk . Not the Thai I asked for but still was very happy to receive .

Then spent the next 3 months / all summer trying to germ them .
With Hempy telling me repeatedly keep trying they are good seeds . lol .

Not sure if he was fcking with me or honestly fcked up with the seed storage .

But to see him blowing his horn about his germ % was just too much ! lol

 

[TheDarkStorm]

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If a breeder labels there seed F1 i call it an F1 and if i inbreed that line i call it a F2.


If i make a hybrid from 2 unrelated lines i call it an F1 also.


But if we are to go by the Definition of what an F1 is then we go by this


An F1 Hybrid (also known as filial 1 hybrid) is the first filial generation of offspring of distinctly different parental types.[1] F1 hybrids are used in genetics, and in selective breeding, where it may appear as F1 crossbreed. The term is sometimes written with a subscript, as F1 hybrid. Subsequent generations are called F2, F3, etc.
The offspring of distinctly different parental types produce a new, uniform phenotype with a combination of characteristics from the parents. In fish breeding, those parents frequently are two closely related fish species, while in plant and animal breeding the parents often are two inbred lines.
Gregor Mendel focused on patterns of inheritance and the genetic basis for variation. In his cross-pollination experiments involving two true-breeding, or homozygous, parents, Mendel found that the resulting F1 generation were heterozygous and consistent. The offspring showed a combination of the phenotypes from each parent that were genetically dominant. Mendel's discoveries involving the F1 and F2 generations laid the foundation for modern genetics.

Thank you hempy....if your not sure of your selected p1s a perfect way of testing this would be to actually see what comes out....if your coming out with a plant that clearly grows faster and bigger and heavier,thicker, increased resins ect an looks like a giant compared to the two parents used, then would it not be considered a f1 ..in my opinion it would.

 

[Elmer Bud]

P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } [FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]I have been thinking about replying more to this thread but usually the kind of reply I have in mind will be met by someone thinking that it is an attack on his person and not the statements made from narrow real world experience and anecdotal evidence like reading other anonymous posts or relaying private conversations with famous breeders in open forums. Please don't take this as an attack on you Mr thread-starter, it's the things you say not your person that I am disagreeing with. It just doesn't line up with my own first hand experience in most cases. [/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]Mango Haze, Super Silver Haze, Nevil's Haze et-al are not true F1 hybrids so the simplified models that are often used to describe or predict what seeds made from those types would end up expressing falls short. How can those above mentioned hybrids be true F1 hybrids? The Haze is allegedly made from multiple NLD varieties which means that they are not made from two stable parental lines hence they cannot produce true F1 hybrids. If those two haze males talked about in this thread are not true P1s, they are not pure F1s either in the strictest sense and meaning of that terminology. If the two haze males are neither P1 nor F1 how can they produce true F1s? It is more complicated that that and therefore the simplified “logic” of F1, F2, F3 etc. cannot be applied with any certainty. [/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]This is not a knock on anyone this is just trying to see it for what it is. I have grown and smoked NL5 x Haze, Super Silver Haze and Nevil's Haze from the 90s and onwards. I like the hybrids, I like the smoke. But if you think they are true F1 hybrids then I can't agree. If we discard weather or not some of those old legendary varieties were made with the HzA or HzC or both males incorporated, I think we can all agree that they were made with NL5 and Skunk#1 added. This cannot make a true F1 hybrid, it is already further down the filial generations and the results will not be so black and white. [/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]Clearly you have not been to Thailand or any of the neighboring regions to see the type of NLD plants that grows here. Yes. I live here, I have seen a lot of them and your statements on these type of plants and their hermaphroditic expressions are just not true. [/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]Also can I ask why it is not ok to have another opinion on Nevil and Shantibaba but it is ok for you to have opinions on Serious Seeds offerings and quality? Why are you speaking on behalf of some famous people in the cannabis world? Why are you constantly referring to private conversations with some of them? Why are you making statements on Greenhouse and what they have and not? Yet no one can have their opinion on Nevils seeds? Wouldn't it be more fun if we could all just add our own experience and have a discussion about this plant we all love rather than resorting to some kind of identity politics? We don't have to hate each other. I think listening to another opinion that one doesn't agree with, without instantly attacking it, is a higher form of intelligence than to just oppose it as it is not agreeing with oneself.[/FONT]

 

[@hempy]

yes of course using the best genetics increases your chances of finding keepers doh ,
it still takes numbers to find exceptional plants ,

did nevil find the best there was to find in those 10 seeds ??

how do you know there wasnt better , im sure if he grew more he would find something else , he worked with what he had but i doubt he would have passed up growing more to find better ,

and im 100 % sure he would agree ,
he knew growing more plants increased his chances of finding keepers , he said it himself and did it in practice ,

how is it you dont realize this hempy ??


you never answered my question ,
if numbers dont make any difference , how is it you didnt find another queeny yet ??

should only have to grow 10 seeds and poof , there she will be ... right??
why are folks only finding keepers in the odd pack of seeds if numbers dont matter??

if numbers dont matter wouldnt a 20 pack be full of keepers ??

You should know how hybrids work by now Donald especial a poly hybrid like mangohaze that has NL5 x Hz on one side and SkxHz on the other parental side.


You select the female F1 being Queeny mom and Hazy her brother being the Male F1.You cross them and you get F2s your odd of finding her is greatly reduced to that of say the F1 seed as you go into the F2s.


I have found plants very close to her but not quiet her i found closer to her a few times but still not her but i have found special plants most would settle for but not me i want Queeny.

 

[Elmer Bud]

P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } [FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]Yes it was directed towards you sir.[/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]Yes I know “we” call them F1, F2 etc. I am well aware of the terminology I was just pointing out that making assumptions based on a simplified perspective of genetics will not always land in a 100% accurate view of the matter.[/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]How can haze crossed to NL5 and then another line with haze crossed to Skunk#1 be two unrelated parental lines? Even if both the A and C males were used clearly the two lines are not totally unrelated right? True F1 hybrids needs two unrelated, not just two differently named varieties as parents. [/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]I understand that you have an understanding of Thai cannabis but you made some pretty generalized assumptions based on that limited experience. I have not seen all cannabis in this region, far from it, but I have seen a lot, grown some of that and smoked much more. All Thai varieties, grown in Thailand or Laos or any of the other countries, they are not all the same. There's quite some variation in quality and in the type of effects though we would call all of them NLD or south east asians. Growing a few of the types, even over decades, won't give you the total picture of all Thais but I am nitpicking. My point is that there might be a lot of expressions you have not seen even if you have grown some of them. [/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]I don't think people are attacking your friends when they are not agreeing with your opinion on what they said or did. It's quite common in the cannabis online world for people to speak in absolute terms and to make broad assumptions on what other people said. Like I said before I think it would be much more interesting to hear the first hand experiences people had rather than second hand information on what others may or may not have done/said. But that is just my opinion on the matter which I stated. [/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]What regions did the Thais you grew or still grow come from? There's a lot of differences between the regions even within this country. Did they come in seeded flowers or did they come directly from a seed maker/grower here in Thailand? A lot of people got their seeds via imports not from going to the actual maker of the seeds. I know for a fact that it can be very hard in this area to get any real information regarding where things came from and how they were made. Not only due to the language barrier but a lot of it has to do with that. Names like Highland, Lowland, Chocolate or Lemon added in front of the Thai in the different varieties are often if not always put there by non thai people.[/FONT]

In my limited exp in Thailand it seemed to me it was generally Hmong who grow kancha in Thailand .
Either on a mountain top or far off the beaten path .

Is that a fair report ?

 

[TheDarkStorm]

You`re right TDS .
At the time I was a noob and asked Hempy for Thai seeds .
He eventually sent me a shit ton of Mr Nice f2 . Black Widow , Nev Haze and G13 Sk . Not the Thai I asked for but still was very happy to receive .

Then spent the next 3 months / all summer trying to germ them .
With Hempy telling me repeatedly keep trying they are good seeds . lol .

Not sure if he was fcking with me or honestly fcked up with the seed storage .

But to see him blowing his horn about his germ % was just too much ! lol

Thats unfortunate EB...I understand if you was quite new to growing then how fustrating an disappointing something like that can be.....I dont think hempy would have intentionally given you bad seed....well atleast not then.....not sure about now tho..especially with the way you two get on now..

 

[@hempy]

You`re right TDS .
At the time I was a noob and asked Hempy for Thai seeds .
He eventually sent me a shit ton of Mr Nice f2 . Black Widow , Nev Haze and G13 Sk . Not the Thai I asked for but still was very happy to receive .

Then spent the next 3 months / all summer trying to germ them .
With Hempy telling me repeatedly keep trying they are good seeds . lol .

Not sure if he was fcking with me or honestly fcked up with the seed storage .

But to see him blowing his horn about his germ % was just too much ! lol

No Elmer pm me gave me this story of how you had all your seed orders intercepted by customs and if i had any spare seed.

I reluctantly said okay as i felt sorry for you and did it risking being banned from mrnice for doing it.

At the time my Dad was unwell and i had not sent them because of what was going on not long after i lost my dad and had you pm and insult me.

I should of told you top fk off then n there but no i went sorted it n sent white widow and NH F2s lots.After you told me you got them i herd nothing and then i started to get PMs from people you had sent them so you could trade seeds with them from all over the place complaining of poor germ % like it was my fault you traded with them FFS.

I tested the germ rate of both seed batches the seeds i sent had been taken out of storage for some time but they had a good germ %.

 

[@hempy]

My Acct was never closed at Mrnice most of what i say i can back up screen shots so on the smart thing to do is move on and grow the fk up and stop trying to rubbish me or seek to attack my credibility over n fkn over it kinda gets stupid.

 

[Elmer Bud]

I should of told you top fk off then n there but no i went sorted it n sent white widow and NH F2s lots.After you told me you got them i herd nothing and then i started to get PMs from people you had sent them so you could trade seeds with them from all over the place complaining of poor germ % like it was my fault you traded with them FFS.

I tested the germ rate of both seed batches the seeds i sent had been taken out of storage for some time but they had a good germ %.

Actually I recollect it like this ;
I asked you re Thai seeds you said no probs . Then I waited a cpl of months while you trolled Big Herb hard and ignored me .

Eventually I PM`d you and said WTF ? Are you gonna send those seeds or not ? I dont mind if you dont but just tell me instead of keeping me hanging on . You talked some BS about your Dad and bumping your head . Kept right on trolling hard every day and ignoring my PMs saying how is it going ?

Then you sent the F2s . I tried for 3 months to germ them . Thought maybe its me > So I sent about 10 to a friend and asked him to try germing as a 2nd opinion . Same , same 0 % germ .

Anyone PMing you telling stories about me trading your seeds is a troll and a liar because it never happened .
I think you are being liberal with the truth there Hempy .

Show me the lies about me sharing your seeds from your Mr Nice Acc and I will shut !! Fckin certainly not true !!!!

 

[Gypsy Nirvana]

Ehhh - can you fella's keep your personal dealings private? - If you have some argument about it - then keep it to P.M.

- All this 'he-said-she-said' stuff - just detracts from the main theme of the thread - HAZE.

 

[@hempy]

I can prove all i posted and lots in the community know the facts.

What i cant work out is why have so many of you just like in this thread attacks me trolled me and tried to assassinate my credibility ?,You do realize most see the personal attacks as stupid and childish.


The energy you people waste is mind boggling not to mention the hate and anger some of you carry for years.


You attack me you attack Nevil and shanti do you honestly think any of this makes any of you look good.

 

[Stocktont]

Fair enough HEMPY I understand that some seed companies will call things F1s when they are not. I also see that you replied to Donald saying that MH was a poly-hybrid so I know we are on the same page about that now. I am not saying anything about the quality of the MH, SSH, NH or any other hybrid only pointing out that they were made with two hybrids (NL5 x Haze and Skunk#1 x Haze) and that won't make a true F1 but a poly-hybrid as you state yourself. And my point was exactly that it's hard to make predictions about further filial breeding starting out with something that is not a pure P1 or F1. Some are good some not so good. In my mind NL5 x Haze and Super Silver Haze were some of the best hybrids I have grown indoors. Even if they were not F1s.


I have seen slightly wider leafed Thais as well as the dried green and brown types. If one have to categorize thai weed then I would have two main types, green and brown and I agree that more often the green ones are the racy types where the brown often are a bit more mellow. I have had really good examples of both as well as pretty poor examples of both. It depends a lot on how the post harvest process went down. This climate is not good for keeping weed or seeds. Both deteriorate quite rapidly if not put in a cold storage.


@Elmer Bud depends on what you mean by grew/grow, if in large quantities (fields) or just for private smoke. I know a lot of people grow for private smoke and I prefer that to most of the commercial stuff anyways. There's a difference (to me) between the Myanmar (formerly Burma) border and the Laos border. I had some really nice weed from the Myanmar side and some really nice from the Laotian but my experience with the northern regions would probably be less than yours other than what comes down south where roam. The climates are a bit different too I suspect where I am and up there with different dry and wet periods. You are definitely right about the “far off the beaten path” part, some of the best weed I have smoked here came from visiting far off places, islands or mountain areas.

 

[Gypsy Nirvana]

hempy - you should drop all the 'I'm a victim of trolls' spheel - and just ignore any detractors that you have already engaged and countered - otherwise you will just turn this thread into even more of a troll/flame magnet than it is - in your own mind -

I'd hazard a guess to say that most members and guests browsing this thread are more interested in HAZE than in your petty differences with other growers -

- It's a popular thread - and I wouldn't like to think that it's popularity is due to all the personality politics within it -

I can prove all i posted and lots in the community know the facts.

What i cant work out is why have so many of you just like in this thread attacks me trolled me and tried to assassinate my credibility ?,You do realize most see the personal attacks as stupid and childish.


The energy you people waste is mind boggling not to mention the hate and anger some of you carry for years.


You attack me you attack Nevil and shanti do you honestly think any of this makes any of you look good.

 

[@hempy]

P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } [FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]Fair enough @Hempy I understand that some seed companies will call things F1s when they are not. I also see that you replied to Donald saying that MH was a poly-hybrid so I know we are on the same page about that now. I am not saying anything about the quality of the MH, SSH, NH or any other hybrid only pointing out that they were made with two hybrids (NL5 x Haze and Skunk#1 x Haze) and that won't make a true F1 but a poly-hybrid as you state yourself. And my point was exactly that it's hard to make predictions about further filial breeding starting out with something that is not a pure P1 or F1. Some are good some not so good. In my mind NL5 x Haze and Super Silver Haze were some of the best hybrids I have grown indoors. Even if they were not F1s.[/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]I have seen slightly wider leafed Thais as well as the dried green and brown types. If one have to categorize thai weed then I would have two main types, green and brown and I agree that more often the green ones are the racy types where the brown often are a bit more mellow. I have had really good examples of both as well as pretty poor examples of both. It depends a lot on how the post harvest process went down. This climate is not good for keeping weed or seeds. Both deteriorate quite rapidly if not put in a cold storage. [/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]. [/FONT]

I was gifted a very special Thai line that was from 1978 imported Thai Stick i am also hoping to get one more that has been here for decades that is unrelated growing up in the tropics a friend from school has.

My plan in the future is to share them but more importantly get them back to Thailand.

I know a lot of the old school genetics are still around they may not be in the country's they originate from but people have preserved them with in small circles of friends.

I lost a lot of good Thai and other genetics to poor storage 2 decades ago i then fixed that by researching seed storage and found great info from the universality of Hawaii.

Here is one of the Thais.

 

[@hempy]

hempy - you should drop all the 'I'm a victim of trolls' spheel - and just ignore any detractors that you have already engaged and countered - otherwise you will just turn this thread into even more of a troll/flame magnet than it is - in your own mind -

I'd hazard a guess to say that most members and guests browsing this thread are more interested in HAZE than in your petty differences with other growers -

- It's a popular thread - and I wouldn't like to think that it's popularity is due to all the personality politics within it -

I keep trying to mate i even try and be nice to some but they continue to fill pages of this thread with personal attack as soon as the thread builds up a happy momentum.

You can see the pattern you or Sam post tell every one to grow up the thread starts to build up a happy momentum and it re starts.

Your 100% right people read this for the Haze info not for who has a larger ego soap operas are for old women.

I was pleasantly surprised to see Sam start to post to and hope he continues.

 

[Stocktont]

I was gifted a very special Thai line that was from 1978 imported Thai Stick i am also hoping to get one more that has been here for decades that is unrelated growing up in the tropics a friend from school has.

My plan in the future is to share them but more importantly get them back to Thailand.

I know a lot of the old school genetics are still around they may not be in the country's they originate from but people have preserved them with in small circles of friends.

I lost a lot of good Thai and other genetics to poor storage 2 decades ago i then fixed that by researching seed storage and found great info from the universality of Hawaii.

Here is one of the Thais.


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That looks nice, I would smoke it!


I think there's still a lot of good genes around in these areas but it's been dangerous to grow fields of it for a long time. They passed some sort of medical a while back but it's far from being available to foreigners or to be grown freely. I have seen one friend apply to grow and sell weed about 2 years back but to this day he hasn't received a license to do so. The government grows it and they only prescribe it in the form of oil. My hope is that they will realize that they could get some serious tourism for cannabis if they let it go free (with tax etc.). it's already a paradise to hang out on the beach and smoke weed here, if it was relaxed and legal I bet it could benefit a lot of people financially as well.


How is the smoke from that thai line? Is it the racy kind or the chill type? I tend to love the kind that will act like a day brightener. I had some a few weeks past from a local friend here where I am that really smelt like lime and lemons and when I smoked it sounds got softer, the light and colors got more intense and I couldn't help smiling. It had kind of the same flower shape as that one. Quite a lot of them have that look though some look bigger yet with quite airy flowers.

 

[Elmer Bud]

Ehhh - can you fella's keep your personal dealings private? - If you have some argument about it - then keep it to P.M.

- All this 'he-said-she-said' stuff - just detracts from the main theme of the thread - HAZE.

Yes Boss ...

 

[ojd]

First up of course I think the more numbers to look through the better

But how come Neville found and achieved what he did with the 10 seeds ?
How many seeds did Sam have and was anything better found ?
Also Sam legally worked with companies with 10,000 plant grows , where is the grail ?
Neville found the grail in 10 plants , how many seeds did Sam have to look through and has anyone ever seen or found better than the famous Haze clones found by Neville or the X's Neville made with them ?.

Not hating on Sam at all so slow down you fanboys with the hate attacks but seriously where is all the stuff Sam found( not from the 80's when he first turned up) but after Neville found the grail what did Sam find after that from his 10,000 plus plant grows ?
Again not hating in Sam as we wouldn't have half of what we have without him but what famous clones were found and kept like these old Neville cuts and even other elites from around the world like the Chem 91 , ECSD
Surely Sam's seed fridges must be like whole houses and what has been found from them .

Neville took the grail and made Millions of Grail seeds and spread them all over the world and advanced our movement like knowone else