The Haze discussion thread
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Old Trollin Tom had a sharp mind .
He insulted me more than once too
. One time he told me I was hugging Nevil`s choad .I didn`t know that word . I had to ask my teenage son what a choad was .
Then I was pissed off !
But the everyone a breeder thread was gold if you had the patience to read it .
It was Tom laying out Sam`s selfing and then outcrossing method .
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
I always thought you were much younger than me Raco turns out you mite be older than me.
You have one year on me i started in 1979.
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
Hi HB i hope you do post about them be interesting to see how these turn out .
Have you heard guys?? please be cool and delete your bs
THHz
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=82574&pictureid=2022514&thumb=1]View Image[/url]
for the sake of clarity i was cool when i got here an ill be cool wen i leave ,,gypsy deleted a joke by myself nothing more nothing less youll find no bs here cant stand the stuff
1986 I 1st planted seeds . 1988 I obtained a copy of RC Clarke`s Marijuana Botany . Then things got interesting .
SUPER_HAZE
Active member
Hi Raco.
I'm growing moño rojo x destroyer. Did you try this hybrid? How long did you do it?
On the germination side, not many have come out, but I will be able to test and preserve them. Now they are a little deformed, I hope they turn out well later.
Thank you very much.
I'm growing moño rojo x destroyer. Did you try this hybrid? How long did you do it?
On the germination side, not many have come out, but I will be able to test and preserve them. Now they are a little deformed, I hope they turn out well later.
Thank you very much.
yes exactly. does not even need to be a natural male if speaking about cannabis where the gender can be reversed and a female can be a 'father'.
indeed exactly my point, no magic, just genetics. but the specific organism you're working with dictates how you can use that genetic knowledge. plants and animals both have dna, yet the breeding methods are pretty different since there are other practical considerations.
and in plants you've also got the split between outbreeders and selfers('allogamous' crop vs 'autogamous' crop). for example a method like single seed descent(SSD) is a nice efficient method in a selfing crop, but with an outbreeding crop you can only use it if selfing is possible, and then you have to prevent crossbreeding.
actually, in this part I was thinking more about a natural selection situation, although it could also apply to human selection.
my point was that if some random mutation(assuming it's both recessive and with a negative effect) pops up in a specific selfing plant through mutation, that will immediatly lead to reduction in fitness of part of it's offspring the next generation.
so any kind of mutation that happens, is under the influence of a selection pressure within a generation. so this prevents negative recessives from establishing themselves in the population.
while if you have an outbreeder, like weed or humans, if such a mutation happens it often stays hidden. let's say a mutation occurs in your father's balls. you receive 1 mutated allele from him, and 1 working from your mother. you don't notice you have it, and you have no reduced fotness, since it is recessive. you get kids with an unrelated female, and again you pass on the broken allele to some of your kids, but none of them express it.
so this broken allele keeps wandering around the population without any selection against it, since it stays hidden and invisible in the background. only when it reaches a high enough prevalence within the population, so there's a decent change that the woman you get kids with carries it too, will you see it in your kids.
so that's why natural outbreeders are sensitive to inbreeding, during normal reproduction they accumulate these negative recessives in the population since there is no selection pressure acting against them. and as you start inbreeding, these negative recessives show themselves. they were there all along, they are not new mutations(mutation rate is constant), you just never saw them since they were hiding in the background.
just a quick note on the last sentence, generally in plant breeding of legal crops breeders prefer to work with dominant genes.
that is because introgression breeding is very common, and with a dominant gene you need only half the time backcrossing it into a line than with a recessive(with a recessive, you need a round of selfing or fillial crossing in between each backcross to reveal the recessive gene, so if you want to go to a BC6 population, you need 6 generations for a dominant allele, 12 generations for a recessive). however nowadays marker asisted selection is possible so it doesn't really matter that much anymore, since you can 'see' the recessive gene even in it's hidden state.
We have seen some commercial cannabis seed breeders use similar techniques, including Tom Hill with his Haze line.
I don't think he ever reached the point where the main line had problems like what you described, but his going back and breeding in stock from previous milestones was clearly an effort to avoid something like that.
Thank you for jumping into the fray on this djonkoman
yeah I think in that way the weeed industry still has some catching up to do, but I think as soon as legalisation spreads further and more people from the legal traditional ag industry are joining, we will see more of that kind of stuff.
I think maize is especially an interesting example in this case, since eventually they did transition to 'real' f1 hybrids with just 2 parentlines. this is just something I remember from an off-hand comment in a lecture I got, but there it was said that over time maize breeders were able to breed out the worst of the inbreeding depression from their parent-lines, so they eventually beca,e fertile enough to use as direct parents for commercial seed.
btw, specifically about my own experiences with selfing, I have some seeds up to S3 now. I also have S2 where the original parents were very related( cross of sister A x (unrelated plant x sister B) ).
I think I have seen some inbreeding effects over the last years, some odd growing traits like a few self-topping plants(each unit of node+internode ended in a leaf instead of an apical meristem), and one I killed a few days ago where it went into alternate branching as it started flowering, strongly grew out the lowest branches, than 1 node later went back to paralel branches, then a node higher back to alternate branching.
those were always a minority so far though, I just kill them(or don't use the seeds if they expresss their messed up-ness later on. the self-topping one I kept for a while to see how it behaved, to see if it might be a trait worth breeding for, it was not).
also from that S2 mentioned above the germ ratio is very low(but the seeds are also slightly immature, so hard to say wat exactly the cause is, but compared to other seeds that look similarly mature, they germ badly, so it's possible some inbreeding depression is going on there).
so imo yes inbreeding does occur, and yes it does have negative effects. however, my goal is not just to harvest some weed, I want to create a good breeding line that I can use for breeding in the future, and for that it's ok if it has some inbreeding depression, it's worth it to get a more stable line that can pass on certain genetic traits in a predictable way.
ofcourse as a grower and buyer of seeds you don't want to get an inbred, low vigour plant. but a heavily inbred plant could still have great value for breeding eventhough by itself it's too inbred to yield well.
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Planted my first seeds in 1972. In 1974 or 75 I was growing Columbian Red. I wish I had preserved some seeds, I had a bunch. The seeds were black as night.
In 1978 I was running Red Leb/Afghani, from seed that came from Lebanon, and Afghanistan. Some of the best weed I have ever grown
In 1978 I was running Red Leb/Afghani, from seed that came from Lebanon, and Afghanistan. Some of the best weed I have ever grown
The biggest problem is not knowing what your starting with.. We cant know what inbreeding was done before we got it. Starting with genetics that haven't had others hands on them is difficult. Allot of inbreeding goes on with landrace genetics from self pollination issues. Where can you get seeds that any could say have never had any inbreeding happen?.
SUPER_HAZE
Active member
I have many seeds of landraces and of all the seeds I have seen in my life, the blackest are mango thai from the real seed. They are dark brown almost black with stripes.
OGMango Haze
OGMango Haze
OGMango Haze
nothernblue
Member
tom m's ohaze
tom m's ohaze
from agseedco.com
Original Haze was first bred in 1969 in the Santa Cruz Mountains by a gentleman named G. G exchanged seeds with Skunkman Sam who in turn turn saved the variety and turned on the world to Haze.
I begot these seeds directly from Skunkman Sam and they are the original 3 way Columbian Haze that was first bred in 1969 in the Santa Cruz mountains by Sam's neighbor "G". Sam kept them through IBL breeding since the 70's to preserve the variety and I am also reproducing them using open pollination for the most variation in the prodigy.
Please note: Original Haze is an amazing variety that is best used for breeding. You will no doubt find some wonderful examples of Haze, but please note that there is a lot of variation in the variety, and that is what makes it such a great plant to breed with.
is "G" the haze bros?
tom m's ohaze
from agseedco.com
Original Haze was first bred in 1969 in the Santa Cruz Mountains by a gentleman named G. G exchanged seeds with Skunkman Sam who in turn turn saved the variety and turned on the world to Haze.
I begot these seeds directly from Skunkman Sam and they are the original 3 way Columbian Haze that was first bred in 1969 in the Santa Cruz mountains by Sam's neighbor "G". Sam kept them through IBL breeding since the 70's to preserve the variety and I am also reproducing them using open pollination for the most variation in the prodigy.
Please note: Original Haze is an amazing variety that is best used for breeding. You will no doubt find some wonderful examples of Haze, but please note that there is a lot of variation in the variety, and that is what makes it such a great plant to breed with.
is "G" the haze bros?
Happy Times
Well-known member
Heck of a big plant for just mid April!
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
I have a Red Colombian and only grew it once long flowering non dutched line i got from family.I plan on growing the seeds i have selecting the best and preserving it but also crossing it to the Thai to make a line like Haze i will keep you posted.
How can you make a Haze like line if the parents you are breeding are different to the Haze parents ?
Haze is Punto Rojo inbred . How will your Red Colombian x Thia be like a Haze ?
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman / Overgrow
Burning Bush was a pure Original Haze, on the Thai side with very thin buds that looked like shit, except they were covered in resin, an Oz would make a ziplock all sticky as hell inside. It was very very strong. Also hard to roll a jay because it was so sticky and did not burn so great, even though dryed and cured perfect. Just to much resin.
Sometimes, those are better in a bowl
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