WTF is w/feminized genetics,

[SupraSPL]

I have seen hermy-prone fems and herm resistant fems. Depends on the breeder and the strain

Seems to me that crossing two fems has potential to be a better way to breed than using males because all we can select for in the males is resin. From my experience most males are more resinous and odorous in veg than their female counterparts because we select for resinous males. We cannot select very well for potency or bud structure by judging a male. So whose to say how well that translates in the resultant females? Maybe we can breed better drug cultivars using female-female breeding.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

hippy, I just don't see any evidence of the legions you claim.
And my experiences, as well as lots of others, is that there is no problems with femmed seeds that came from properly selected parental stock.
I think you are spouting stuff you can't back up, and really...would a pic of each and every plant you ever grew be proof of anything concerning the genetics of the seeds?

jawnroot, I think you will find that what we do is cause the plant to express stamen. The ability to do this is already in the genetic map of the plant, all we are doing is triggering it's response. We are not modifying any genes in any way, they are what they are.
Do you really feel what you said should be the end of the discussion?

stagger, why don't you post up some specific quotes from these books. Maybe some of us do not have them or have access to them? Show us what you are talking about instead of just providing references.
Maybe cannabible3 pg 72 and the specific paragraphs dealing with this issue, and then maybe another book that agrees.

 

[JackTheGrower]

I have seen hermy-prone fems and herm resistant fems. Depends on the breeder and the strain

Seems to me that crossing two fems has potential to be a better way to breed than using males because all we can select for in the males is resin. From my experience most males are more resinous and odorous in veg than their female counterparts because we select for resinous males. We cannot select very well for potency or bud structure by judging a male. So whose to say how well that translates in the resultant females? Maybe we can breed better drug cultivars using female-female breeding.

I'm guessing that the conservative thing is to look at this as a genetic stimulant.

Meaning that if I cross a female with another female I would consider that seed something to work into another line rather than continue that feminized line. Not that clones are off the list just that for breeding so far, I see great results with a feminized seed as the female in the corss with a male of another strain.

I may try several female to female generations in the future but I have no data now. Just the one off breeding that resulted in the longest fox-tails I have see so far..

 

[charlie garcia]

I would like to add my two cents form my point of view and location. Since fems started here tehre is not demand of regulars anymore at least here in Spain. Now new change comes with autoflowering and feminized. Hope people realise that wont be possible to keep moms nor even make seeds. But suposeddly is what people are demanding. So, hope you guys fridge all your male/female seeds. Times move so fast but looks like same attitude than Monsanto indeed, you have to buy and buy seeds every year. Its not what you like or not, here most already have not access to other type of seeds in the shops, so its what you can get, only fems and autos.

Sure there should be place for everything at the same time and everyone should be able to buy what they want but fact is that is not possible here unless you look in international shops. Guess demand created with marketing is been very sucessfull. Anytime you try to argue with friends in industry here you get same response, hei this is just a business. Never heard the word "cannabis" in industry, and most can sell cars, soaps or seeds and dont differentiate

enjoy in the meantime

 

[Travieso]

If any1 cares IMO Greg Greens Breeders Bible goes into great detail about this topic and feminized seeds.Really good read!

LOL. Greg Green is actually Strawdog from Overgrow who got all his info for his book from the Overgrow website before it went down. Copy and paste. lol

 

[Tom Hill]

I bet he would be quoting some of the same folks on this thread too, lol. Nothing wrong with all female selection programs.

 

[JackTheGrower]

I would like to add my two cents form my point of view and location. Since fems started here tehre is not demand of regulars anymore at least here in Spain. Now new change comes with autoflowering and feminized. Hope people realise that wont be possible to keep moms nor even make seeds. But suposeddly is what people are demanding. So, hope you guys fridge all your male/female seeds. Times move so fast but looks like same attitude than Monsanto indeed, you have to buy and buy seeds every year. Its not what you like or not, here most already have not access to other type of seeds in the shops, so its what you can get, only fems and autos.

Sure there should be place for everything at the same time and everyone should be able to buy what they want but fact is that is not possible here unless you look in international shops. Guess demand created with marketing is been very sucessfull. Anytime you try to argue with friends in industry here you get same response, hei this is just a business. Never heard the word "cannabis" in industry, and most can sell cars, soaps or seeds and dont differentiate

enjoy in the meantime

This falls under the category of heirloom seed savers. In gardening circles people who save genetics are called seed savers or heirloom growers.

For some it's a passion to maintain a variety of genetics and yes we need that for Cannabis. We need to get the profit monkey off our backs as the United Nations Cannabis seeds bank is close to if not finished now.

the UN used to keep genetics.

Yes the Human is the Virus on the Planet.

 

[JackTheGrower]

I believe so, yes. By my understanding, chemically altering a plant to throw male flowers is a form of gene doping. :

It proves every plant is a Hermi!

 

[Cinderella99]

Sure there should be place for everything at the same time and everyone should be able to buy what they want but fact is that is not possible here unless you look in international shops. Guess demand created with marketing is been very sucessfull.

enjoy in the meantime

Word...Here's the future. Save you're breeding males from quality straight stock, folks.

 

[charlie garcia]

well most plants stressed to max tend to show at least some nanas. As far as I know theres just male markers not females markers, correct me if I am wrong *, but some fine jobs are done and can be done in fem for sure. Only key as always is proper selection.

Agree C99, save them or wont germ in few years anymore but thats a personal choice, not industry.
best
*edited, seems not correct

 

[JackTheGrower]

well most plants stressed to max tend to show at least some nanas. As far as I know theres just male markers not females markers, correct me if I am wrong, but some fine jobs are done and can be done in fem for sure. Only key as always is proper selection.

Agree C99, save them or wont germ in few years anymore but thats a personal choice, not industry.
best

And Males put on Female flowers too! I need to add and makes seeds. I was told these seeds would be sterile but I didn't tend that male in anyway but to kill it. It had been left out in the blistering dry and was soaked with manure tea when it put on female flowers and seed.

So I don't know if seeds made this way would be sterile or not.

So we have

o Controlled selection of male and female genetics.
o Hermaphrodite Males ( chemical and stress are the only two I know )
o Hermaphrodite Females ( seen in more genetics than we like to see for smoking )

So I believe all Cannabis has the ability to form seed under the right conditions.
Then it's all about selective breeding to make a Smoke plant or a Seed plant or a fibre plant.

 

[Cinderella99]

Agree C99, save them or wont germ in few years anymore but thats a personal choice, not industry.
best

Hi Charlie,

Hate to weigh in on the heavy side for the market, but I personally germed 8/10 C99's after 10 years in deep freeze... From experience, if you don't thaw and keep moisture at bay, no reason not to be able to store em for a couple decades?

 

[charlie garcia]

once put in the market my experience says they stay viable 2-3 years in the shops mostly, believe me. In the fridge, canisters or so sure they can be kept much longer
JTG, there is not reason to keep intersexuals but only as an experiment, but not good at all to pass those genes
World is crowded now of seed sellers and seed "banks" just disssapear. I know of some big sellers here who dont and have never even smoked to test. Breed and sell are different worlds. Some lines are just used in new hybrids only for its firm sex when feminise, dont think many others criterias are used sincerelly.
best

 

[Dalaihempy]

Evidence is also presented indicating that increased selfing resulting from changes to floral design, or geitonogamy in large clones, can act as a stimulus for the evolution of dioecy. The scope of future research on mating strategies needs to be broadened to include investigations of functional links among flowers, inflorescences and plant architecture within the framework of life–history evolution.



Evolution of dioecy. Most plants are hermaphroditic, with both male function (with pollen and stamens) and female function (with ovules, pistils, seeds, and fruit) in each flower. About 6% of flowering plant species are dioecious (unisexual plants with male flowers or female flowers in the population).

 

[JackTheGrower]

once put in the market my experience says they stay viable 2-3 years in the shops mostly, believe me. In the fridge, canisters or so sure they can be kept much longer
JTG, there is not reason to keep intersexuals but only as an experiment, but not good at all to pass those genes
World is crowded now of seed sellers and seed "banks" just disssapear. I know of some big sellers here who dont and have never even smoked to test. Breed and sell are different worlds. Some lines are just used in new hybrids only for its firm sex when feminise, dont think many others criterias are used sincerelly.
best

Uh.. I want to roast seeds some day again. I'll need to grow them so we grow what we need eh?!

It's been fun to contribute to a thread like this.

 

[Cinderella99]

World is crowded now of seed sellers and seed "banks" just disssapear. I know of some big sellers here who dont and have never even smoked to test. Breed and sell are different worlds. Some lines are just used in new hybrids only for its firm sex when feminise, dont think many others criterias are used sincerelly.
best

That's exactly why, imo, that we need serious, excellent and honest breeders of "straight up", non fem strains like yourself (and Tom) that venture into land race genetics. Right on, bro-- much respect.

 

[charlie garcia]

I do work fems too Cinderella, its obvious have their place and use, but like to work regulars for breeding obviously. It doesnt mean some great jobs can be done with fems. Again is just selection and genetics.
My point is anyway, dont expect that others come and do something for you, If you think you like cannabis and not only for smoking and want to do something for it, just do it. Sounds like Nike commercial lol
Its just opinions, hope all are as diverse as marihuana used to be and we will be richer
best amigos

 

[jawnroot]

jawnroot, I think you will find that what we do is cause the plant to express stamen. The ability to do this is already in the genetic map of the plant, all we are doing is triggering it's response. We are not modifying any genes in any way, they are what they are.

I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything, but this is pretty much the textbook definition of gene doping. The genes are already there, sure, but you're causing them to express in a very unnatural way.

Note that I'm not one of those that thinks fems are the end of the world. Quite the contrary. So long as breeders refrain from using selfed parent stock exclusively, I see no moral, biological, or any other issue with fems...

...and we all know breeders aren't going to start using selfed parent stock exclusively/universally. So it's a non-issue for me.

The thing with fems that the naysayers don't realize? It's a niche market. Most folks would just as soon buy "regulars" and grow them out for mother stock and go from there. And as I mentioned in the last post, when cannabis becomes normalized, fems will disappear entirely, or will become even more of a niche, especially with the availability of clones.

So nothing I see worth wasting time worrying about. Cannabis prohibition is a much larger threat to the plant, when compared to selective breeding in any of its guises.

Do you really feel what you said should be the end of the discussion?

I feel it's the end of the discussion, for me. Check out the quote (emphasis added):

This is the end of the discussion, as far as I'm concerned.

You and I both know this is a polarizing topic. Everyone has their opinions/beliefs/dogmas. Case in point: This has been going on for eight or so pages now, and it's far from consensus. This isn't a debate, but a stalemate back and fourth that will continue unless someone starts handing out epiphanies.

Good luck

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

Well a lot of folks are trying to make money and not caring about Cannabis.

We will do better.

What do you think of the Genetic Snapshot concept?

IS there a place in a breeding program? Would you feel comfortable with a feminized seed to try from a breeder that is following a proper breeding program to breed cannabis and not just to sell seeds?

genetic snopshot concept..
ive found genetic compisition and genetic expression to be different things.
the seeds might be a good snapshot of that generation of that pheno.
but the offspring might not express the same genes the parent did.

as for more seeds, id probably buy more fem. sometimes regulars just arnt availabe. id prefer regulars over fem, probably because i do have the time/space/will.

i definately understand the idea so smaller growers can get seeds get a good strain with less effort. sounds great.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Only key as always is proper selection.

Exactly.

FWIW...I have had some males that showed stamen during the vegetation stage. Full on grape clusters just like in 12/12 flower. The pollen was viable and I have crosses from using it. I placed the males in flower out of curiosity mostly. In a few days one started producing pistols and it seemed the stamen producing was coming to a halt. I did not flower it out all the way due to other logistics and timing, but I sort of wished I had flowered it out all the way just to see the results, and see if it selfed well.
The crosses I have from it are for my use only, and I am very curious to run several of these hermie male crosses just to see what is there. I also have it's sibling males that also flowered in veg and the pollen was viable, although they stayed male in flower too.
The crosses I have made with the males that didn't hermie so far have produced nothing but fantastic smoke, and no hermies.

But suppose I find something amazing in the hermie male group? What I know about the seeds is that they carry the ability for the males to hermie during veg...how latent or dominant that trait is would be an interesting test.
There has been theory thrown around about how the male hermie could possibly help to alleviate the female hermie...but I still don't think I can grasp that yet.

And I am very curious to hear from an enlightened breeder about their thoughts on forcing a true female plant (one of the 6%...or should I say 3%). I don't think it can happen....