So if I said to you coke zero or diet coke was good for you would you drink it? CS probably sounds ok to drink but wouldn't catch me drinking it.
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WTF is w/feminized genetics,
- Thread starter stagger lee
- Start date
So if I said to you coke zero or diet coke was good for you would you drink it? CS probably sounds ok to drink but wouldn't catch me drinking it.
Hempy, good grief man...you alwqays seem to bring up the demise of cannabis when this topic comes up. IMO, you couldn't explain to us how that would happen. All you can do is throw out wild assertions. Assertions that sure won't materialize, nor can they. I think you are basically throwing out unfounded platitudes, rather than speaking about factual science.
Yes there is a large difference, and to breed with the late nanner plants pollen would insure that you carry the intersex trait further down the line. Which is OK, but the thing is...if I chose other females that do not show late nanners in the same environment, then the stock that I choose is chemically altered to produce pollen...my progeny is far more likely to be hermie free than yours, which you used late hermie pollen to produce.
Chemically forcing an otherwise true female to produce male pollen is a bit out of the box of a normal, natural event...but so is growing a plant in a box under artificial light, and feeding it chemical nutrients. Manipulating the light as it never does in nature....
I could go on and on about the unnatural events cannabis sees.
And these things are no more unnatural than anything else we do, including the forcing of male pollen.
Now, when you have something that is backed up by science, rather than the chicken entrails and juju stone predictions you make, then I may listen...otherwise you are doing nothing more than throwing around baseless charges and unfounded gripes.
BTW...Monsanto is genetically modifying things. Are we doing that by forcing pollen?
Also, until there are conclusive findings, the GM fears are likened to global warming alarmist bullshit. Go read the comments after that report you posted...it shows that folks need no more than that paragraph article to be convinced that gm modified crops will kill you and should be banned. Exactly the same sort of hysteria oozing from the AGW crowd.
Are you sure it isn't voodoo or magic, instead of madness?
Yes there is a large difference, and to breed with the late nanner plants pollen would insure that you carry the intersex trait further down the line. Which is OK, but the thing is...if I chose other females that do not show late nanners in the same environment, then the stock that I choose is chemically altered to produce pollen...my progeny is far more likely to be hermie free than yours, which you used late hermie pollen to produce.
Chemically forcing an otherwise true female to produce male pollen is a bit out of the box of a normal, natural event...but so is growing a plant in a box under artificial light, and feeding it chemical nutrients. Manipulating the light as it never does in nature....
I could go on and on about the unnatural events cannabis sees.
And these things are no more unnatural than anything else we do, including the forcing of male pollen.
Now, when you have something that is backed up by science, rather than the chicken entrails and juju stone predictions you make, then I may listen...otherwise you are doing nothing more than throwing around baseless charges and unfounded gripes.
BTW...Monsanto is genetically modifying things. Are we doing that by forcing pollen?
Also, until there are conclusive findings, the GM fears are likened to global warming alarmist bullshit. Go read the comments after that report you posted...it shows that folks need no more than that paragraph article to be convinced that gm modified crops will kill you and should be banned. Exactly the same sort of hysteria oozing from the AGW crowd.
Broccoli Head
Member
I agree, anyone who buys seeds of any kind is irresponsible and doesn't care about the preservation of the plant....the deck can only be shuffled so many times...This stage of globalization (internet) along with censorship (mods & admins) has done more damage to the plant in the past 10 years then in the previous 500 years.
D
Dalaihempy
Hi mate when no voodoo here unless one of us is siting in a hut in the deep of Africa on a dirt floor and has the local witch doctor doing a chant so ow net connection don't drop out as we type a replie .
First off fem seeds has been around for how long ? Basically not that long on the market correct and how many of you have in fact grown out and breed with them a few generations to even know what will happen few and i know for a fact that real breeders will not touch them because they know what will come as they have grown them out and saw what will happen generations later yes hermie city.
I don't understand how you or any one can think turning a female plant into a male using chemicals is in any way normal or part of nature or will it not some time down the road pose a serous threat to the cannabis genetics still left and with the net and sites like this people all over the world can and do order and resive and grow out such genetics and breed with them.
A plant grown and pushed late into flower that produces 1 seed or even 2 that yields a pound or more because of a self preservation trigger is very different to a plant from a female clone pollinated by the same genetic female chemically turned into a male my friend.
Remember the GM food crops its safe then the controlled field grows it can not pollinate with other crops will it did and it is now being shown to be far from safe now also to humans.
Growing indoors is in fact a lot different to chemically changing a female plant to a male and then pollinating its self were indoor growing trys to mimic nature but in a more controlled Environment no storms now pests and no weeds large difference.
TrueGangsta148
Member
no one has thrown out the possibility that the seed companies are greedy dicks for selling only fem seeds? yeah if you only grow in a cab then its great to get all female(mostly) instead of some males, but this is a sure way to limit the genetics. IF you release new strains as only females, this eliminates the possibility of people making F2's and keeping their own seeds to grow again, it also prevents people from being able to breed different strains together and make stable crosses unless they use CS or some other chemical.
I see that some companies, like greenhouse sell more varieties in femmed seeds than regular varieties. this is a sure way to get people to buy your genes all the time and not let new crosses be made of your work. Its like some vegetable seeds you buy for your garden, will make fruits with seeds, but they're not viable. tampered genes. it protects the intellectual property of the creator. whether or not living genes should be patentable and ownable, is another debate.
I see that some companies, like greenhouse sell more varieties in femmed seeds than regular varieties. this is a sure way to get people to buy your genes all the time and not let new crosses be made of your work. Its like some vegetable seeds you buy for your garden, will make fruits with seeds, but they're not viable. tampered genes. it protects the intellectual property of the creator. whether or not living genes should be patentable and ownable, is another debate.
Greenmopho
Member
Femenized seeds are pretty much of the newbie grower, or the commercial grower, who doesn't want to bother with males, and will never consider breeding. You should NEVER include a plant from feminized seed in a breeding project, IMHO, this includes S1s!
All these people selfing Chemdawgs/Diesels and crossing them with each other are just perpetuating the intersex gene....
Actually, in the Hemp farming days, a hermie gene was a desirable trait, and something farmers bred into their hemp plants in order to double their hemp seed harvest. I think that is why the gene is so prevalent, where otherwise it would just be a rarity of nature.
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You simply can't make the assertions you are making. They are not so. Real breeders will not touch them, huh? Hempy, please try to stay grounded here...you are talking nonsense that has facts to show that its shit. Just what breeders think like you do about fem seeds? Only the ones who are not grounded by science, and are in the clouds somewhere.
I would like for you to explain to us how using a plant that was grown from a feminized seed is a higher hermie risk than using a plant from regular bred seed. When you fail to show us how this can happen, and you face facts, you will find that it is the selection of the parent that bring about the propensity for the hermie gene to come into play, and has nothing to do with wether it's parent was forced to provide pollen, or it gave it up because it was a male to begin with. The sexual expression of the progeny will be the only difference between breeding with well selected female plants, and well selected standard plants, is the sexual expression of the progeny...which have no male genes as a result of the pollination being from a forced flower. Nothing more, nothing less. Unless of course you care to show us something besides the speculative, alarmist voodoo you seem to always want to bring to the table.
You confuse people...and I think it is time for you to put it on the table...the facts, and not just your claims. Let's see more than just your keystrokes...put your facts on the table...or....
Explain why, if you can please.
D
Dalaihempy
I am very grounded my friend show me and every one else here any scientific study or proof or research that this is in fact safe it will not cause massive problems with the genetics left down the road and it is in fact safe as you few seam to believe and try to push your belief on to us that don't feel its safe or a positive move for the plant we call cannabis.
The fact people selling these sed point black sed they will not produce hermies or even a single male plants from this method and did tells me that any thing sed is a complet croc of shit sorry i feel strongly about this i find it hard to understand how some feel nature had it rong for so long now they can do better well science has done much in the past and not all positive.
I too feel strongly about this, and I think you are simply all fucked up.
You can't come in every fem thread tossing around so many baseless charges, and then expect someone who disagrees to come up with proof that you are wrong. That shit don't fly, comrade. No, it is YOU that bears the responsibility of providing something that backs up your assertions. And you have jack shit.
If I have a plant that was the progeny of a femmed seed, just where would I look in the genetic map to find the evidence of the plant being of such heritage?
If I breed that female to another healthy, well selected male, just where would the genetic map of that progeny show the heritage of it's parents? What impact could it possible hold?
You don't fucking know, do you? Of course you don't...you are simply continuing to hang on the voodoo and bad juju that you must live your life on.
You can't come in every fem thread tossing around so many baseless charges, and then expect someone who disagrees to come up with proof that you are wrong. That shit don't fly, comrade. No, it is YOU that bears the responsibility of providing something that backs up your assertions. And you have jack shit.
If I have a plant that was the progeny of a femmed seed, just where would I look in the genetic map to find the evidence of the plant being of such heritage?
If I breed that female to another healthy, well selected male, just where would the genetic map of that progeny show the heritage of it's parents? What impact could it possible hold?
You don't fucking know, do you? Of course you don't...you are simply continuing to hang on the voodoo and bad juju that you must live your life on.
D
Dalaihempy
I too feel strongly about this, and I think you are simply all fucked up.
You can't come in every fem thread tossing around so many baseless charges, and then expect someone who disagrees to come up with proof that you are wrong. That shit don't fly, comrade. No, it is YOU that bears the responsibility of providing something that backs up your assertions. And you have jack shit.
If I have a plant that was the progeny of a femmed seed, just where would I look in the genetic map to find the evidence of the plant being of such heritage?
If I breed that female to another healthy, well selected male, just where would the genetic map of that progeny show the heritage of it's parents? What impact could it possible hold?
You don't fucking know, do you? Of course you don't...you are simply continuing to hang on the voodoo and bad juju that you must live your life on.
All fucked up ha that's just lovely i am so hurt by that mate im so hurt in fact i am removing you from my Christmas card list lol very mature and scientific of you an argument that will go down in history.
Baseless ? What that female seeds have produced males and many hermies your kidding your self's and your in denial.
Provide the proof but you cant can you the fact that males have shown up in fem seeds and hermies is proof inuf that female seeds are as stable as well some posting in this thread lol.
You lot need to go sit your self at the front of the class room and stop acting like you have all the answers you don't but i am first to admit i don't ether but i sure as shit can see the righting on the wall female seeds are as reliable as a junky.
Hempy, the occurrence of a male in progeny from a forcing would be an astronomical number, and would be the result of a mutation. Mutations, genetic drift, and epegenetic responses are well known to be spontaneous and without apparent cause.
But to cover the rare occurrence of such a thing...most fem breeders will qualify their stock as being 99.9% female.
As far as hermies go, they are the result of the selection of parents/ Period.
From what you are saying, I could select two females, both of which are proven to be true breeders for not showing hermie. and if I force one to pollinate the other, I have set myself up for hermies to show. I say you are spouting bullshit...bullshit that I think you only hang onto like a bad cold because you have made the assertions so long, and shouted so much, that it is almost impossible for you to actually concede the point without looking like a total fucking buffoon.
But, I suggest that continuing with your unfounded campaign of baseless charges makes you look even more like a buffoon.
But, I am always open to being schooled. Perhaps you can teach me how true breeding females will become producers of hermies if they are selfed? If it is so, then it can be explained. Do explain it, or STFU. It is really that simple. How many of these threads have to be started before you actually come though with more than just your less-than-learned take on things?
It's one way or the other. I want to know the truth, don't you? And if you think you have the real truth, show me. Show us all. What scientific evidence is there that feminized progeny have a higher propensity to show the hermie gene than regular bred seeds.
And nobody as said that fems don't give up hermies. Take DP for a prime example. When they jumped on the fem bandwagon, their breeders had their heads up their asses. This is for certain. They chose poorly for parental stock, and it is just that simple. No more no less. And they suffered because of their stupidity as well. That black mark will never leave their history.
But it wasn't voodoo or chicken entrails that caused their stock to show hermie, it was their lame ass selections.
But to cover the rare occurrence of such a thing...most fem breeders will qualify their stock as being 99.9% female.
As far as hermies go, they are the result of the selection of parents/ Period.
From what you are saying, I could select two females, both of which are proven to be true breeders for not showing hermie. and if I force one to pollinate the other, I have set myself up for hermies to show. I say you are spouting bullshit...bullshit that I think you only hang onto like a bad cold because you have made the assertions so long, and shouted so much, that it is almost impossible for you to actually concede the point without looking like a total fucking buffoon.
But, I suggest that continuing with your unfounded campaign of baseless charges makes you look even more like a buffoon.
But, I am always open to being schooled. Perhaps you can teach me how true breeding females will become producers of hermies if they are selfed? If it is so, then it can be explained. Do explain it, or STFU. It is really that simple. How many of these threads have to be started before you actually come though with more than just your less-than-learned take on things?
It's one way or the other. I want to know the truth, don't you? And if you think you have the real truth, show me. Show us all. What scientific evidence is there that feminized progeny have a higher propensity to show the hermie gene than regular bred seeds.
And nobody as said that fems don't give up hermies. Take DP for a prime example. When they jumped on the fem bandwagon, their breeders had their heads up their asses. This is for certain. They chose poorly for parental stock, and it is just that simple. No more no less. And they suffered because of their stupidity as well. That black mark will never leave their history.
But it wasn't voodoo or chicken entrails that caused their stock to show hermie, it was their lame ass selections.
D
Dalaihempy
REPEAT Provide the proof but you cant can you the fact that males have shown up in fem seeds and hermies is proof inuf that female seeds are as stable as well some posting in this thread lol.
We agree with whoever said dont breed with S1! 
We started crushing ALL bagseeds,, regardless of how good the dope was. There's no point in keeping S1 as a base of genetic stock,, end of.
Dude,, we dont have any photos,, dont grow many fem. seeds really ,, but trust hermaphodites and males (1:1000+) are reported with feminized seeds ocassionally.
Personally we never seen one nana, let alone herm,, but there's time yet... lol
This is a feminized Black jack [Sweet Seeds],, a feminized hybrid between Black Domina and Jack Herer,,,
We don't plant to beed with fem. seeds every again,, (we'll just watch the Painted Lady closely) ,, but still this Black Jack should be fun,, it's ment to grow tall.. lol
Hope this helps
We started crushing ALL bagseeds,, regardless of how good the dope was. There's no point in keeping S1 as a base of genetic stock,, end of.
Dude,, we dont have any photos,, dont grow many fem. seeds really ,, but trust hermaphodites and males (1:1000+) are reported with feminized seeds ocassionally.
Personally we never seen one nana, let alone herm,, but there's time yet... lol
This is a feminized Black jack [Sweet Seeds],, a feminized hybrid between Black Domina and Jack Herer,,,
We don't plant to beed with fem. seeds every again,, (we'll just watch the Painted Lady closely) ,, but still this Black Jack should be fun,, it's ment to grow tall.. lol
Hope this helps
P
Paco
Feminized seeds,like condoms, are for sailors.
mexicangreen420
Member
agreed, if i buy seeds, they are regular beans. but i only intend on breeding if i get something special. it just seems more natural to me, i think fem's are like tranny's, they are only good if you like to take it up the ass with a nanner. you'll end up pulling nuts out of your bud for a month, that sounded damn dirty. good.
plus, i don't mind the feminized freebies, give them to someone who doesn't know better, people love free stuff.
plus, i don't mind the feminized freebies, give them to someone who doesn't know better, people love free stuff.
Thing is, it is you guys that don't know any better.
You are doing nothing but continuing a campaign of the ignorant.
Unless of course you have something to offer that shows us how feminized progeny are any more prone to show the hermie gene than regular bred progeny. Show us you know something, or stop blowing off as if you did.
OK, folks...let's lay this all out on the table for a decent discussion.
I am a simple man, and only a layperson in the world of botany, so I do not possess scientific reference from the top of my head...all I can do it provide my take on things....
As far as I know, there isn't anything that one sexual expression of a plant carries, that it's sibling of the opposite sex doesn't carry...save for the actual Y chromosome that allows males to be males. Many learned breeders, SamS included has mentioned their speculation of what genes that male may carry that the female does not, and visa-versa, but as far as I know there has been nothing that is identified as male or female exclusive.
So, if we understand a bit about breeding and the punnet square, we realize that progeny will hold the genes of the parents. The progeny will display certain phenotypes due to the arrangement of the genetic map. It is kinda like throwing the parents genes in a bag, shaking it up, and then letting them fall out as they will...although there is more of a method to things than random chaos. Understanding the math behind the punnet square helps to get the concept of this.
Imagine we have a group of siblings, both male and female, and we choose a male and a female from a polar opposite IBL to breed with.
Assume both of these have been rigorously selected and shown to not be hermie prone.
Let's say we have a DC male and female, and we have a Haze male and female. This is a pretty much a generality, but if we breed the male haze to the female DC, and then the female haze to the male DC, we are going to have two groups with very similar qualities for the most part. The phenotypical expressions may be somewhat different between the groups depending on how dominant or latent each parents particular genetic map is laid out. But in all, we have a combination of the genes between the two parents.
A selection would be made from these to find suitable parents for another cross.
Now, if we have selected plants that are hard to hermie, the same way we selected the original parents, then we can feel confident that we have a good stock of parents that do not show hermie...maybe even use stress as your selection tool so we KNOW the hermie gene is buried way down latent.
Now comes the moment of truth...
I have made my second selection and have two parents chosen, one male and one female. Both have been worked from hermie free parents, and have themselves been selected using no hermie as criteria.
Tell me what is wrong with breeding either the female or the male? Would both of the selected progeny I have be worthy of breeding to another worthy individual? Say I had another proven true breeder female...would it not be a good move to breed to my selected male? Or perhaps I have a proven hermie free true breeder male of something...would it not be a good move to breed to my selected female?
Well, of course we can go to either side of our selection to breed with...the male or the female, and we can feel confident that either are good parents that do not show hermie in themselves or their progeny.
Now...let's assume that out of our first selection group we had another female that also showed promise, and we just don't want to cull her. Well, if we force her to produce male pollen, and then use it to pollinate out original selected female (it's sister), what form of magic or voodoo all of a sudden would place a dominant intersex gene in the middle of things out of nowhere?
See...this is what you naysayers must be able to answer. Otherwise you are spouting nothing but less-than-learned voodoo, IMO.
Like I have always stated, there is no more propensity for a forced fem to create hermie progeny than there is for a regular bred seed.
AND..I also contend that there is a far bigger problem in the world of pollen chucking with using males that there is females, if ridding of the intersex gene is what you are after..
Not because of a genetic issue, but because of a lazy ass pollen chucker issue. See, I can evaluate a female and it's prowess much easier and faster than Hempy can with his males. No doubt about that. And may people are not properly selecting males...no, what they do is get a male...it smells good, so they pat it on the ass...call it good, and breed with it. BOOM...there it is.
If I have to explain that further...it really doesn't matter. And most didn't read my rant this far anyhow....
But, I am always willing to learn...
I am a simple man, and only a layperson in the world of botany, so I do not possess scientific reference from the top of my head...all I can do it provide my take on things....
As far as I know, there isn't anything that one sexual expression of a plant carries, that it's sibling of the opposite sex doesn't carry...save for the actual Y chromosome that allows males to be males. Many learned breeders, SamS included has mentioned their speculation of what genes that male may carry that the female does not, and visa-versa, but as far as I know there has been nothing that is identified as male or female exclusive.
So, if we understand a bit about breeding and the punnet square, we realize that progeny will hold the genes of the parents. The progeny will display certain phenotypes due to the arrangement of the genetic map. It is kinda like throwing the parents genes in a bag, shaking it up, and then letting them fall out as they will...although there is more of a method to things than random chaos. Understanding the math behind the punnet square helps to get the concept of this.
Imagine we have a group of siblings, both male and female, and we choose a male and a female from a polar opposite IBL to breed with.
Assume both of these have been rigorously selected and shown to not be hermie prone.
Let's say we have a DC male and female, and we have a Haze male and female. This is a pretty much a generality, but if we breed the male haze to the female DC, and then the female haze to the male DC, we are going to have two groups with very similar qualities for the most part. The phenotypical expressions may be somewhat different between the groups depending on how dominant or latent each parents particular genetic map is laid out. But in all, we have a combination of the genes between the two parents.
A selection would be made from these to find suitable parents for another cross.
Now, if we have selected plants that are hard to hermie, the same way we selected the original parents, then we can feel confident that we have a good stock of parents that do not show hermie...maybe even use stress as your selection tool so we KNOW the hermie gene is buried way down latent.
Now comes the moment of truth...
I have made my second selection and have two parents chosen, one male and one female. Both have been worked from hermie free parents, and have themselves been selected using no hermie as criteria.
Tell me what is wrong with breeding either the female or the male? Would both of the selected progeny I have be worthy of breeding to another worthy individual? Say I had another proven true breeder female...would it not be a good move to breed to my selected male? Or perhaps I have a proven hermie free true breeder male of something...would it not be a good move to breed to my selected female?
Well, of course we can go to either side of our selection to breed with...the male or the female, and we can feel confident that either are good parents that do not show hermie in themselves or their progeny.
Now...let's assume that out of our first selection group we had another female that also showed promise, and we just don't want to cull her. Well, if we force her to produce male pollen, and then use it to pollinate out original selected female (it's sister), what form of magic or voodoo all of a sudden would place a dominant intersex gene in the middle of things out of nowhere?
See...this is what you naysayers must be able to answer. Otherwise you are spouting nothing but less-than-learned voodoo, IMO.
Like I have always stated, there is no more propensity for a forced fem to create hermie progeny than there is for a regular bred seed.
AND..I also contend that there is a far bigger problem in the world of pollen chucking with using males that there is females, if ridding of the intersex gene is what you are after..
Not because of a genetic issue, but because of a lazy ass pollen chucker issue. See, I can evaluate a female and it's prowess much easier and faster than Hempy can with his males. No doubt about that. And may people are not properly selecting males...no, what they do is get a male...it smells good, so they pat it on the ass...call it good, and breed with it. BOOM...there it is.
If I have to explain that further...it really doesn't matter. And most didn't read my rant this far anyhow....
But, I am always willing to learn...
stagger lee
Member
Amen, hoosierdaddy, sayn my opinion is personal theory BS, when at least I can offer some proof,while you just disrespect any1 that disagrees w/you.
Feminized seeds are more likely to herm, and the grow environment can influence the final sexual outcome of mj plants grown from seed(standard or feminized)
A stressful grow environment can cause males and herms w/feminized seeds.
Greg Greens Breeders bible
pg 133-137 in chapter 15
Greg Greens Growers bible(newest 2nd edition)
pg420 and also 518-519
Marijuana Botany by Robert Connell Clarke
pg85-87
Jorge Cerv growers bible and even cannabible 3
by jason king pg72
also the Rev(skunk mag)
dready Bob(weed world mag)
fuck even sonia skunk(WW) also goes into detail
about environment influencing sexual outcome,and feminized genetics are producing males and herms.
Feminized seeds are more likely to herm, and the grow environment can influence the final sexual outcome of mj plants grown from seed(standard or feminized)
A stressful grow environment can cause males and herms w/feminized seeds.
Greg Greens Breeders bible
pg 133-137 in chapter 15
Greg Greens Growers bible(newest 2nd edition)
pg420 and also 518-519
Marijuana Botany by Robert Connell Clarke
pg85-87
Jorge Cerv growers bible and even cannabible 3
by jason king pg72
also the Rev(skunk mag)
dready Bob(weed world mag)
fuck even sonia skunk(WW) also goes into detail
about environment influencing sexual outcome,and feminized genetics are producing males and herms.
