WTF is w/feminized genetics,

[10k]

FYI, fem seeds are in demand! thats why these seed companies are selling them. They are giving the people what they want. You dont like fem seeds then dont buy them. Its that simple!. Most of my keepers from seed come from fem seeds.

Guys dont even pay attention to this Dalaihempy character!. Dude has no common sense and I've seen him get laughed out of threads and almost get banned quite a few times for his ignorance. just pretend he isnt here! Dude is a joke.

Bite your tongue dude !!!
I'd just as soon ban your ass for flaming fellow members in threads.
There is nothing wrong with the side of this civil debate as represented by dalaihempy.
His points are just as valid as Hoosierdaddys and are certainly NOT ignorant.

 

[farmer city]

well said 10K, Always excuses,excuses,excuses, with feminised seeds. just for a couple extra females. I learned my lesson. Several males and hidden hermies even after a few successful generations.Hermies destroy all strains going at the time!All just for a few extra females. Not even true females, go w/standard.Forget the false paranoia. Not breeders fault! its the fault of inexperienced growers tryn to cut corners.

 

[stagger lee]

whats so hard w/pulling a few males? Is it so hard that you pay double for feminized and hope the breeder created them properly?

 

[Baba Ku]

I see no problem with one breeding the plant the way one wishes to breed the plant.
Is not our ultimate goal to find happiness? And can we truly be happy breeding to others wishes? Does the plant really have a preference or does she go with the flow? Does she change his mind?
My preferred method is to search for all forms of magic in the plant. The more magic, the better.

 

[Cinderella99]

Hempy: "...REPEAT Provide the proof but you cant can you the fact that males have shown up in fem seeds and hermies is proof inuf that female seeds are as stable as well some posting in this thread lol..."

The only way this would serve as proof to me would be if you could demonstrate that there were a greater number of these hermie instances in the fem progeny than in a similar size sample progeny group from the non-femmed seeds-- both test groups coming from the same P1 mother and the straight seed group coming from a father that was a sibling to the P1 mother. Even then these wouldn't really represent perfect control groups since we don't really know the herm tendency of the P1 father of the non-femmed, but several studies like this under our belt, and we'd probably be able to begin making safe generalizations...

Until I see an empirical study, I don't believe any genetic alchemy takes place simply by virtue of the fact that a fem has been S1'd....

But then again, I've been wrong before lol

Edit: I think the reason the fems say 99.9% is to warn folks who count on them trouble/nanner free...I think 99.9% hermie free could be applied to a lot of the straight strains as well...

 

[Dalaihempy]

Hempy: "...REPEAT Provide the proof but you cant can you the fact that males have shown up in fem seeds and hermies is proof inuf that female seeds are as stable as well some posting in this thread lol..."

The only way this would serve as proof to me would be if you could demonstrate that there were a greater number of these hermie instances in the fem progeny than in a similar size sample progeny group from the non-femmed seeds-- both test groups coming from the same P1 mother and the straight seed group coming from a father that was a sibling to the P1 mother. Even then these wouldn't really represent perfect control groups since we don't really know the herm tendency of the P1 father of the non-femmed, but several studies like this under our belt, and we'd probably be able to begin making safe generalizations...

Until I see an empirical study, I don't believe any genetic alchemy takes place simply by virtue of the fact that a fem has been S1'd....

But then again, I've been wrong before lol

hi all look i would have no problem with fem seeds if they were sterile in that they could not be used in breeding full stop only then would i be happy to see people offering them.

Look at the market place now to say 5 years ago now most offer fem seeds every man and his dog are claiming to be breeders now days how hard is it to select a good female plant from a batch off seeds and then make seeds from its self not hard at all but how hard is it to start with 2 different lines and work them 5 or more generations achieving something of quality a lot more work and skill involved.

I am happy to sit here and be called a fool and a moron by these smart asses if it serves to make people think a little of the dangers these seeds could pose in years to come in reality its about sales if people that pay for seeds sed no to fem seeds then they would not be making them or offering them and would be forced to breed and offer quality reg seeds after all its about supple and demand.

The fact female seeds have shown to produce plants showing both female and male flowers and even male plants tells me a lot there is no argument here these are facts posted by independent growers from all over the boards so female seeds are not stable and the argument posted by some is week in there deffence.

Fem seeds are being grown every were in all corners of the world now you think there not being breed with other lines think agine in years to come who will undo the damage no one because you cant.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Thing is, hempy.,...you cannot tell us what damage you are referring to.
You need to be able to point to the problem, not just claim there is one and pretend that anyone else understands what you are talking about. What are you talking about?
You don't waste ascii warning us, add a few more and go into detail with us. Show us that you really do know something, or at least you have a valid theory. So far, you haven't let us in on one reason why fem seeds are bad for the gene pool.

Now, you can continue to ride on the fact that there are hermies and males that show up in fem forced progeny, but tell us how that is different from regular seed progeny? The hermie gene probably exists at a certain level in most every plant, so it's occurrence is not only possible but probable at some point. Especially in light of the fact that many genetic responses are totally random and spontaneous, without apparent due cause.
And yes, a male could possible show up...at a rate of about 1:1000 (or more).
The facts that these things happen is no proof at all of the worth of femmed seeds, as they same thing happens with regular seed progeny.
How often do you see a male hermie? Ever seen a real male hermie? I have seen quite a few plants in my day, and to my knowledge I have seen one.

Anyway...you need to do this here and now, or stop your passing of bad information to new growers. It is not fair for them to be inundated with such crazy talk of voodoo...which unless you can show me different, is all you really have and nothing more.
Almost like someone who was a novice wanting to sound learned (like some I know who want to tout things in books that aren't there..or, they simply can't comprehend what they read very well).

Fess up, you really can't explain your stance past the bad juju can you?
And if you really can't, or won't, explain yourself, one has to imagine that you are full of bullshit and not much more.

your less-than-learned take on things?Mate lift your game stop with the insults do you really want to be Sean as a bully boy that's had his ass handed to him by the quiet kid in the play ground you keep this up.

lol...OK, well then....that is exactly what I am asking you to do...hand me my ass. Try your best. That is what I am after. Then once and for all we can stop this crazy dance.
I am afraid that the teacher is going to insist you tell her what happened to your bloody nose, and just how it happened....and that part worries me, because you can't seem to explain anything else.

 

[pinecone]

The only way this would serve as proof to me would be if you could demonstrate that there were a greater number of these hermie instances in the fem progeny than in a similar size sample progeny group from the non-femmed seeds-- both test groups coming from the same P1 mother and the straight seed group coming from a father that was a sibling to the P1 mother. Even then these wouldn't really represent perfect control groups since we don't really know the herm tendency of the P1 father of the non-femmed, but several studies like this under our belt, and we'd probably be able to begin making safe generalizations...

Until I see an empirical study, I don't believe any genetic alchemy takes place simply by virtue of the fact that a fem has been S1'd.

Given that hermi rates rates are so low in the fem and non-fem seeds the sample sizes would need to be pretty large to generate conclusive results. The need for fairly large sample sizes probably renders this sort of experiment outside of the scope of the canna community, but I suspect the chemical techniques that are used to generate fem cannabis seeds were borrowed from some other seed industry, and that there might be some research on the tendency for seeds produced this way to reverse sex.

Pine

 

[DocLeaf]

Much confusion here lies over OLD FEM SEEDS and NEW FEM SEEDS.

OLD FEM SEEDS - were sourced from pollen from unstable female plants/clones,, usually butt-****ed (pls excuse my french) onto the same line or clone! Thus resulting in sexually unstable plants. (see Grapefruit [female seeds])

NEW FEM SEEDS - are sourced from pollen from stable female plants/clones,, that have been chemically inhibited to express the male flowers. Thus resulting in a plant that is sexually stable (XX x XX) and can display nothing other than XX plants in lineage. (see Critical [Royal Queen Seeds].

The OLD and the NEW are very different... regardless of how weak or slow they grow in comparison to regular seed stock!

OLD FEM SEEDS weren't worth widdling on,, where's NEW FEM SEEDS appear to be getting cleaner with selection each year.

Technically making fem seeds is NOT breeding anyhow!

Hope this helps

 

[hahhh]

HEMPY:Look at the market place now to say 5 years ago now most offer fem seeds every man and his dog are claiming to be breeders now days how hard is it to select a good female plant from a batch off seeds and then make seeds from its self not hard at all but how hard is it to start with 2 different lines and work them 5 or more generations achieving something of quality a lot more work and skill involved.

>>i dont know what world youre living in but there are no long term programs that conclude with truly improved strains of commercially available drug cannabis. you are lying to yourself if you think anyone in this seed market is going to work a line for years on a large scale and just throw it into the seed boutique shredder for all to dismantle and sell their own version of in 6 months. get frickin REAL. The seedmarket is so bastardized by ignorance and amateurism that truly improved cannabis is not going to be available. p.s. the feminized Era began full-tilt 10-11 years ago.

hempy:I am happy to sit here and be called a fool and a moron by these smart asses if it serves to make people think a little of the dangers these seeds could pose in years to come in reality its about sales if people that pay for seeds sed no to fem seeds then they would not be making them or offering them and would be forced to breed and offer quality reg seeds after all its about supple and demand.

>>There is no hidden danger. dont be such a sensationalist. The reason femmed seed sells more than conventional seeds is because feminized seeds have no problems that are directly associated with feminizing. dont you think we would have clear evidence a full decade and tens of thousands of matings after the craze began? jesus.how fukin long do you need?

hempy:The fact female seeds have shown to produce plants showing both female and male flowers and even male plants tells me a lot there is no argument here these are facts posted by independent growers from all over the boards so female seeds are not stable and the argument posted by some is week in there deffence.

>>This is so ignorant and bizarre that this kind of idea still floats around these forums. Male/Female matings OFTEN produce intersexed offspring. Feminized seeds do not produce any true male(XY) plants. Female-only matings -just like male/female matings- can produce female plants with very strong male tendencies. Amatuers with little to no knowledge or insight on cannabis sexuality can easily mistake a herm plant for an XY plant.

hempy:Fem seeds are being grown every were in all corners of the world now you think there not being breed with other lines think agine in years to come who will undo the damage no one because you cant.

>>>In most parts of the world, drug cannabis 'feminizes' without the help of humans, buddy. I dont know how you personally view and separate all of the "damage" Nature is doing to itself...? just stop with this stupid shit. youre plain ass wrong.
hahh

 

[JackTheGrower]

I read a while back that most plants are not Male or Female like Cannabis can be

Hermaphrodite may be an evolutionary stage plants went through.


Let me toss this out.. Can we safely say that there are any genetic lines that haven't had a hermi in their past?

If not then growers could breed the homomorphic trait out or breed to suppress it while keeping the qualities of that plant.

I don't think we are looking at the bigger cannabis picture and I feel our "Seed Industry" is actually causing a decrease in genetic diversity.


I have been thinking of seeing what hermaphroditic genetics have survived in that batch of seeds. Maybe I will do a hermi grow and shoot pictures.. It is time to grow them to refresh and save seeds.

I am trying to be a seed saver.

Any interest?

 

[stagger lee]

I have to admit Im starting to regret posting this thread cause, so many see feminized as either good or bad and the debates never accomplish anything. goes nowhere fast.

C99 whats up bro? cant remeber which site I saw you last? Hope all is well w/you!

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

well said 10K, Always excuses,excuses,excuses, with feminised seeds. just for a couple extra females. I learned my lesson. Several males and hidden hermies even after a few successful generations.Hermies destroy all strains going at the time!All just for a few extra females. Not even true females, go w/standard.Forget the false paranoia. Not breeders fault! its the fault of inexperienced growers tryn to cut corners.

im not sure about that cutting corners thing...

but fem seeds are BS. hermis come out and ruin crops, resin isnt as prolific as tru females. poor yield. ..
fem seeds are junk imho.

*edit
not only costing more, but "fem seeds" are more oftin then not a poor portrail of the genetic being gotten.... i.e. fem master kush is going to look way different then a non fem master...

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

Yes, you are missing something. And you get a ball breaking each time because the facts have not changed, and what you have in your head is contrary to fact.

A feminized seed happens from an other wise female plant being forced to produce male stamen, which produce viable pollen. When the pollen used from a forced female, it does not contain the chromosome that is needed to produce a male, so all of the progeny from that mating will be female...due to their genetic makeup.

A seed can also lack the male chromosome because it was the result of a female plant expressing the intersex trait. The otherwise female plant produces male stamen and pollinates another female plant (or itself). These seeds will also lack the male chromosome, but will more than likely produce progeny with a high propensity of carrying the intersex (hermie) trait.

MJ isn't as simple as XX vs XY like in humans...it is more of a XXyX vs XXYY thing....

And environment can only cause a seed to express what it already has in it's genetic map. And yes, if the genes hold the intersex trait, then environment can cause it to show itself, but environment does not change feminized seeds into males. It just doesn't happen like that. If a male happens along, it is a result of the intersex gene taking some prevalence and expressing itself as such.
Exactly as it happens in regular breeding. No difference.


LOL...I wish folks who bring about bad vibes on fem seeds would offer up more than their personal theories of voodoo and bad juju. What a joke.

all of what you said is still Refuted by THE FACT that LEGIONS of growers get males/hermis and junk from "fem'd seeds"

ive wasted litterly 1000's buying from everyone that makes a fem'd seed..
and no i dont waste my time showing the community every plant i grow, or every turn i squirt out.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Much confusion here lies over OLD FEM SEEDS and NEW FEM SEEDS.

OLD FEM SEEDS - were sourced from pollen from unstable female plants/clones,, usually butt-****ed (pls excuse my french) onto the same line or clone! Thus resulting in sexually unstable plants. (see Grapefruit [female seeds])

NEW FEM SEEDS - are sourced from pollen from stable female plants/clones,, that have been chemically inhibited to express the male flowers. Thus resulting in a plant that is sexually stable (XX x XX) and can display nothing other than XX plants in lineage. (see Critical [Royal Queen Seeds].

The OLD and the NEW are very different... regardless of how weak or slow they grow in comparison to regular seed stock!

OLD FEM SEEDS weren't worth widdling on,, where's NEW FEM SEEDS appear to be getting cleaner with selection each year.

Technically making fem seeds is NOT breeding anyhow!

Hope this helps

I've taken the point of view that Feminized seeds are genetic snapshots of a single generation and a single genetic set.
I believe that they do add genetic diversity if we use some reasonable caution.
If Feminized are Genetic Snapshots then perhaps they are the best way to distribute a single genetic generation around the world.
Think of it as a genetic product rather than a proper genetic line.

I'm guessing the price for seeds will reflect the quality control more than the creative genetics.
Buy from trusted breeders.

Hey if the White Widow Feminized are just fine and the price of those seeds reasonable it's cheaper to buy a 5 pack than invest a season to breed or the space needed to keep clones to me.
If I am sharing something as Certified I had better have done the work.

It's like safe sex... You do take your chances with unsafe acts and getting it from a certified professional usually means the risk is reduced. Getting it from a hot entrepreneur more interested in profits than public safety may mean the risk is greater unless you are lucky.

Condoms anyone?

 

[JackTheGrower]

all of what you said is still Refuted by THE FACT that LEGIONS of growers get males/hermis and junk from "fem'd seeds"

ive wasted litterly 1000's buying from everyone that makes a fem'd seed..
and no i dont waste my time showing the community every plant i grow, or every turn i squirt out.

Well a lot of folks are trying to make money and not caring about Cannabis.

We will do better.

What do you think of the Genetic Snapshot concept?

IS there a place in a breeding program? Would you feel comfortable with a feminized seed to try from a breeder that is following a proper breeding program to breed cannabis and not just to sell seeds?

 

[stagger lee]

I too feel strongly about this, and I think you are simply all fucked up.
You can't come in every fem thread tossing around so many baseless charges, and then expect someone who disagrees to come up with proof that you are wrong. That shit don't fly, comrade. No, it is YOU that bears the responsibility of providing something that backs up your assertions. And you have jack shit.

I have given you several grow books and pg #s
to back up my joke of a personal theory. Youve repeatedly asked for any kind of proof to back up my claims.....there it is, can you do the same?

 

[jawnroot]

BTW...Monsanto is genetically modifying things. Are we doing that by forcing pollen?

I believe so, yes. By my understanding, chemically altering a plant to throw male flowers is a form of gene doping. And then, we must wonder if the pollen produced is itself mutated in one way or other...

That said, I think the only "danger" with femenized seed is if the progeny of S1s are used en masse to breed. This is clearly not the case, nor will it ever be.

Once cannabis is legitimized, feminized seed will become a non-issue. Clones will be widely available at nurseries and through mail order, solving the problem for folks that don't want to start more than a few.

End of discussion, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[stagger lee]

A stressful grow environment can cause males and herms w/feminized seeds.

Greg Greens Breeders bible
pg 133-137 in chapter 15

Greg Greens Growers bible(newest 2nd edition)
pg420 and also 518-519

Marijuana Botany by Robert Connell Clarke
pg85-87

Jorge Cerv growers bible and even cannabible 3
by jason king pg72

also the Rev(skunk mag)
dready Bob(weed world mag)
fuck even sonia skunk(WW) also goes into detail
about environment influencing sexual outcome,and feminized genetics are producing males and herms.

If any1 cares IMO Greg Greens Breeders Bible goes into great detail about this topic and feminized seeds.Really good read!

 

[JackTheGrower]

Here is another question is it better to use a female clone or a different female?

Selfing could lead to genetic errors and that could contribute to hermaphroditism.

So what to use? A clone of the intended or a sister of the intended?