Why are you still growing organic?

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Outdoor organic is better under almost all circumstances. I don't think anybody could argue about that. If this seems as if I am baiting someone, I am.

I could argue that. And have before effectively. What's funny is that you all have decided simplicity and laziness lead you to grow organic, when nothing is simpler than mixing a liquid with another liquid in the correct ratio... And this being the reasoning after some of the same people argued in another thread that organics was superior because it was alot harder to get the same results...

When everything a plant uses to grow is available in a purified ionic form, going through the elaborate process to naturally give the plants the exact same elements in the exact same form (plants can ONLY uptake nutrient as ionic elements suspended in solution) is redundant.

Organics is the Rube Goldberg machine of indoor growing.

The end result (available and usable nutrients) is available without requiring the delicate balance and drawn out processes involved in organics...

Hydro is easier... Mix three liquids and water you plants... the last couple of weeks use one liquid...


However... After allowing myself to be baited, I'm going to be done... This thread is not supposed to be another argument thread, and not supposed to be another thread where organic growers brag about their percieved superiority... It's why do you still use organics... Why do I? because I like to outdoors... Why do I not? Indoors there is a better way to achieve the same results.

 

[JackTheGrower]

I could argue that. And have before effectively. What's funny is that you all have decided simplicity and laziness lead you to grow organic, when nothing is simpler than mixing a liquid with another liquid in the correct ratio... And this being the reasoning after some of the same people argued in another thread that organics was superior because it was alot harder to get the same results...

When everything a plant uses to grow is available in a purified ionic form, going through the elaborate process to naturally give the plants the exact same elements in the exact same form (plants can ONLY uptake nutrient as ionic elements suspended in solution) is redundant.

Organics is the Rube Goldberg machine of indoor growing.

The end result (available and usable nutrients) is available without requiring the delicate balance and drawn out processes involved in organics...

Hydro is easier... Mix three liquids and water you plants... the last couple of weeks use one liquid...


However... After allowing myself to be baited, I'm going to be done... This thread is not supposed to be another argument thread, and not supposed to be another thread where organic growers brag about their percieved superiority... It's why do you still use organics... Why do I? because I like to outdoors... Why do I not? Indoors there is a better way to achieve the same results.

I was wondering if any of those hydro nutrients come from oil?

If so there is a good reason not to use them.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I was wondering if any of those hydro nutrients come from oil?

If so there is a good reason not to use them.

NOPE... the General Hydroponics Flora series, of which I only use the grow and micro, is derived from purified minerals... It is NOT synthesized from chemicals, especially not petrochemicals...

 

[Suby]

Outdoor organic is better under almost all circumstances. I don't think anybody could argue about that. If this seems as if I am baiting someone, I am.

As with anything there are pros and cons but the best weed I smoke is outdoor organic, even better than the same strain indoors IMHO.
The real benefit is that an active soil biology will allow the plant to extend past the soil you provided and out into the rich soil around benefiting from the rich soil of the forest or field your growing in.
The only drawback is you have to chose your ingredient carefully if predators and animals are a factor but avoiding blood and bone meals and using well balanced composts makes for a healthy plant.
I use neem oil and cakes religously when growing outdoors, both organic, safe and really effective against most nasties.
Some growers here use bumper type crops like nitrogen fixing plants that are tilled into the soil for next years grow, you can plant other more attractive plants to the pests to lure them away from yours, so there are strategies that really maximize health and success of the grow.
Being as organic fertilizers are not easily washed away by rain and that they are slow release over time makes for less visits to a grow spot which is good for those deep forest setups, not needing to flush is also a great plus.

I was wading in purple and red plants this weeken visiting a friends setup and DAMN i wish I had a med license.

Suby

PS Relik Amen Brother

 

[Suby]

I dunno what type of organic setup some of you are running but last week I transplanted some heavily rootbound cloned from a 32oz cut to a 5+gallon of soil, I mixed it about 6 months ago and it's been sitting idle in my garage and the results in less than a week have been amazing.
All I did was take 15 minutes to mix up my batch of soil and wet it, this time, with molasses and plain hose water.
I've been watering with plain un-adjusted hose water and nothing more.
I'm sure they will coast on what's in the soil for at least half of flowering then I'll hit them with an activated flowering tea with guano and kelp and feed with that for a week or two and then nothing but water brom my Brita filter until the end.
I cannot see any grow methods being easier than that, I used cheap widely available ingredients I pick up at Walmarts (soil,perlite,blood and bone, molasses) and picked a bottle of Maxicrop, Canna coco and ground kelp meal for the rest at a local nursery.
I had to res to dump, no ph meters to use, I used a rough water source, I won't have to flush, and I'll be able to recycle my soil in the end.
Cost is around 50$ plus gas and I'll have enough until next summer, when I used the PBPro lineup all 3 types of nutes cost me well above that.

While there are tons of things you can learn about organics and it can get very academic at times keep in mind that a simple soil recipe is the easiest method of all and that knowing about organics for fun and what you actual need to know to use them effectively is a huge difference.

Have any of you tested coco in their soil mixes yet?
This current one is a coco/peat mix and they are getting VERY green VERY quick, I forgot how well coco works to feed N.

Suby

 

[Dignan]

NOPE... the General Hydroponics Flora series, of which I only use the grow and micro, is derived from purified minerals... It is NOT synthesized from chemicals, especially not petrochemicals...

Sounds like great stuff, but I wonder how many people read your (excellent) views on this issue and assume they can just go buy any old synthetic fertilizer off the shelves and enjoy the same peace of mind that you do, when your choice of brand of nutes plays into your methods' low environmental impact in a significant way.

Perhaps every post of yours should include a disclaimer at the bottom. LOL Just kidding.

But you know what I'm saying?

------------

I hate seeing words like "stupid" and "better" in these threads... that's why people end up taking things personally. Nobody here can be absolutely sure that their way is best or that another person's way is "stupid"... after all, there obviously exists enough gray area that we are able to debate all this stuff over and over and over.

Debate is a wonderful thing... it's our best opportunity for learning, in fact. Offending someone else undermines learning. And on the other end, someone taking another's comments PERSONALLY undermines learning, too.

If what we truly want is to learn and grow (pun intended), we'd all be served well by

being respectful and courteous *not being a dick
and
thickening our skin *not being so easily offended
------------

I still grow organic because I enjoy growing that way.

 

[Loudcall]

That was the smartest thing anyone of us have said since this thread started Dignan, you dont only make soap, you make sense....And so do you H3ad....We all have our way to do things we all just have to find our own niche' in life thats all....Loudcall!!

 

[Guest]

Think of the children dammit

Think of the children dammit

I would not create a thread for the sake of an argument. I can find an argument closer to home than this subject. Its one thing to grow organic and another to keep on growing organic. Some organic growers spend lots of money on pre mixed solutions. I do not. Most everything is in the soil and the soil will last until the end of flowering. Rarely do I have to use a tea or brew to help the plants. The water must be purified here but if I were using chemicals the water would have to be purified also. I am not oversimplifying saying I am cheap or lazy. Switching over the entire grow, purchasing supplies would be expensive and time consuming. I am cheap and lazy. I have had some excellent hydro (all chemical) results and I seriously doubt the difference between the two would even be noticeable. My main waste product is organic dirt. That's pretty easy to dispose of. I am not surprised some people get hostile. Obviously this is a subject people feel strongly about. I would like it if we could all remain civil to one another, but would prefer to hear all differing opinions whether or not they can remain civil. This ability to give and take in ideas we don't agree on is useful. The statement that “organics for me is cheaper and easier” is true in my case. You may be different. You may believe that one method is superior to another one form more potent, tastier, safer or help you sleep better. Makes no difference. Opinions is all there is unless someone has unmitigated proof of the superiority of one method being superior to another. Does anyone have proof? I still believe that most growers lie somewhere between organic and chemical.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

You're right, Dignan... I might need a disclaimer... GH are the only nutes I recomend, and all I care to use indoors... There are probably alot of other good nute lines out there, but GH is clean simple and readily available to the plant... Outdoors I'm quite fond of rabbit manure as a simple all around nutrient source...

 

[Suby]

Debate is a wonderful thing... it's our best opportunity for learning, in fact. Offending someone else undermines learning. And on the other end, someone taking another's comments PERSONALLY undermines learning, too.

That my friend is an excellent point, I've always said your incredibly objective and I always respect that in a grower.

I have respect for growers who understand the value of material ressources and try to do the very most with the very least, both Grat3fulh3ad and 1Toke set a good example by running systems that keep this mantra in mind.
Just as there are hydro growers that have a great respect for the environment I'm sure there are organic growers who aspire to own a Hummer....
It is one thing to preach something and it's another to walk the walk.
Organics have taught me life lessons and I try as much of possible to apply my love for mother nature in all aspects of my day to day.

Sub's

 

[Mr Celsius]

Indoor growing is different in many ways, surely you recognize that...
The inside of a closet is quite a different environment from a back yard...

I'd love to see the 2KW apartment grow in the city which has a big compost pile in the middle of the apartment floor year 'round building up the soil better and better until the garden becomes an indoor high rise apartment oasis...

I've grown with Dirt indoors, and Hydro is better suited to the environment there...

If you're growing one or two plant's I don't guess it makes much difference, but One could not grow an entire garden worth of veggies indoors using soil nearly as effectively as one could using hydroponics...

You don't have to agree, but anyone who has ever transitioned from indoor to outdoor, or vice versa, knows that indoor and outdoor growing is a different experience with different conditions and challenges...

Indoor gardening is all about supplying everything a plant needs outside, using methods modified to work inside... You don't water an indoor grow by trying to replicate a rainstorm, for example...

Thank you for the response. I must respect you for your reasonable argument.

However, I must disagree. I don't believe there is a right and a wrong way of growing any type of plant. So it is applicable to say that hydro would work just as well/worse or better then organics in an outdoor environment. There many be challenges to be meet, by using a hydro system in an outdoor environment, but, we must admit that there is no "right" way to do something.

My argument by analogy: People 200 years ago didn't even believe that we would be flying. At the time the components that made flying possible were not accessible to humans. With time, with knowledge and resources, we achieved the goal of flying.

So to finish, I believe there is no "wrong" or "right" way to do grow a plant. So it's perfect appropriate to grow plants indoors using organics or growing plants outdoors with hydroponic methods. There are challenges to be meet in both situations, but it is perfectly possible through persistence.

Thank you for taking your time to read and ponder this.

 

[FRANKENBLUNT420]

i think there is a right and wrong way to do every and anything. if there really is no right or wrong way, then there wouldnt be so many people making mistakes and looking for a better way to achieve a goal.

i am saying this using myself as an example and the grows that i have undertaken, even with research i made plenty of mistakes, forgot to add this, added too much of that, not enough of this and on and on. especially when your a visual/hands on learner and all you have is a pic and someones words to follow, and no one to ACTUALLY show me what to do.

its all a learning experience, if i kept going with the what i thought was the "right way" i would never bring a single plant to fruition!! lmao there are things on here, that i read and my better judgment told me not to do it (wrong thing) and i just took a leap of faith and really looked at someone else's results and did what they did (right thing) without having to "try it again."

i think that its through our mistakes(doing the wrong way) that we eventually find a better way of doing things(the right way).

 

[Dignan]

Yea but if Suby grows some Deep Chunk in soil using strictly organics and he ends up with 3 jars full of tasty, smooth, potent, top-shelf Deep Chunks buds...

... and then H3ad does the same with Deep Chunk in soil but using a synthetic nutrient and he ends up with 3 jars full of tasty, smooth, potent, top-shelf Deep Chunk buds...

Which way was the right way?

And furthermore, if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it... does it allow more sunlight to hit my cannabis plot?

 

[Mr Celsius]

i am saying this using myself as an example and the grows that i have undertaken, even with research i made plenty of mistakes, forgot to add this, added too much of that, not enough of this and on and on

I mean no offense by this, but your not doing things as they could be done. There is no right and wrong way, its all about how you work it.

Sure you could go about things in a more difficult manner and maybe not be able to cope with those trials yourself; but, that doesn't mean that just because you can't do something a certain way, that someone else can't.

Human consciousness, the evolution and involution of the human race is based off of finding efficient ways of doing.... I don't like the broad term of "things".... but things.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Thank you for the response. I must respect you for your reasonable argument.

However, I must disagree. I don't believe there is a right and a wrong way of growing any type of plant. So it is applicable to say that hydro would work just as well/worse or better then organics in an outdoor environment. There many be challenges to be meet, by using a hydro system in an outdoor environment, but, we must admit that there is no "right" way to do something.

My argument by analogy: People 200 years ago didn't even believe that we would be flying. At the time the components that made flying possible were not accessible to humans. With time, with knowledge and resources, we achieved the goal of flying.

So to finish, I believe there is no "wrong" or "right" way to do grow a plant. So it's perfect appropriate to grow plants indoors using organics or growing plants outdoors with hydroponic methods. There are challenges to be meet in both situations, but it is perfectly possible through persistence.

Thank you for taking your time to read and ponder this.

Sure, there is no perfectly right or perfectly wrong... That's pretty much a given and I would never argue anything of the sort... More suited to and less suited to would be much more accurate to my stance. I NEVER said that either one was innapropriate, I said that one method is better suited to indoor and one method is better suited to outdoor. You can't really argue with that.

Also... there definitely ARE right and wrong ways to grow a plant... The people that have to post up "help, there is something wrong with my plant" threads are not growing the right way... The right way to do something gives the best results... The wrong way to do it has lots of consequences all the way from "diminished yield" or "crappy burn" up to "dead Plant"...

Your analogy does point to why I use purified mineral nutrients, If you make Hydroponics the airplane...

 

[Guest]

Your shade of grey may be my thin line.

Your shade of grey may be my thin line.

I do not believe that there is any right and wrong, these things are entirely dependant on perspective. Point of view being all so important to determine what's best for each individual. Finances, time, and availability of materials must all be considered when undertaking any grow no matter of size. This is why there are so many opinions. There are so many perspectives. I myself could be tainted by my own perspectives. The most important being a medical user, crop failure causing me to be without medicine. Medical users must have mass quantities of high quality mj. The street cost would be thousands of dollars annually. Some peoples perspective may including sales they may have a entirely different perspective. I do know that MJ fascinates me. Whether I smoked or not, I would still be growing that particular plant. Your shade of grey may be my thin line.

 

[Johnny Rotten]

Like that old saying goes, "there's more than one way to skin a cat" well there's more than one way to grow great cannabis. There isn't really right and wrong, but varying degrees of right. I could take my time and carefully cut off his skin or i could shove a hand grenade down its throat.....they would both technically be skinned but with varying degrees of correctness. As long as your specific goal is achieved, one cannot say you grew something wrong. Open mindedness is a hugely valuable quality for any cannabis grower no matter the length of growing time he has under his belt.

Well, i think Relik's post hit the proverbial home run. It's all about mother nature and building a healthy soil. Environmental damage is also a big concern of mine. I live near a strip phosphorous mine and the damage to the land is heartbreaking. Chemical runoffs creating algae blooms and making my whole area stink is another reason. I'm all about recycling and anything i use gets recycled.

 

[frequency23]

Nothing beats good old organic outdoor. The sun and earth are all you need.

 

[Dignan]

H3ad- When you say organic is better suited for out and synthetics are better suited for indoors, is your main concern with organics a matter of available space indoors for a proper compost bin or to brew compost teas, etc?

Because I would agree with that, but only for someone with very limited indoor space. When I grow indoors, I do it using organic methods.

* Brewing teas takes up about 1 square foot of floor space, which isn't much. Not to mention a perfectly wonderful organic grow can be pulled off without applying any compost teas or nute teas whatsoever. All you really need is some good quality water if you have your soil mix dialed in after a few runs.

* And you certainly don't need to have a compost/vermicompost bin to grow organic... even so, if you want one, a great one can be maintained using about 2 square feet of floor space.

But beyond space issues or other concerns that would be particular to a particular person's grow situation but not applicable across a broader cross section of cultivators, I don't really see why synthetic nutrients would be better suited for indoors than organic methods would.

Am I missin' sumpthin'?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

H3ad- When you say organic is better suited for out and synthetics are better suited for indoors, is your main concern with organics a matter of available space indoors for a proper compost bin or to brew compost teas, etc?

Because I would agree with that, but only for someone with very limited indoor space. When I grow indoors, I do it using organic methods.

* Brewing teas takes up about 1 square foot of floor space, which isn't much. Not to mention a perfectly wonderful organic grow can be pulled off without applying any compost teas or nute teas whatsoever. All you really need is some good quality water if you have your soil mix dialed in after a few runs.

* And you certainly don't need to have a compost/vermicompost bin to grow organic... even so, if you want one, a great one can be maintained using about 2 square feet of floor space.

But beyond space issues or other concerns that would be particular to a particular person's grow situation but not applicable across a broader cross section of cultivators, I don't really see why synthetic nutrients would be better suited for indoors than organic methods would.

Am I missin' sumpthin'?

Yeah... organics works fine indoors... hydroponics indoors is more efficient. The way I do it anyhow... I grew in organic soil indoors for years, now I've grown indoors using mineral nutes and various media for several years.

Hydro is simpler mix three or four liquids in the proper ratio. Feed the plants. No bubbling, brewing, steeping, or guesswork involved... No kiddie pools full of various mulches, manures, mosses, and more to have to stir with a shovel... And I have no Idea how to brew up tea to feed 100 plants in two square feet of floor space, or keep enough soil to do 30 or 40 transplants...

Indoors with more than a few plants organics is alot more work...
Outdoors hydroponics is alot more work..

Perhaps I'll revise my statement...

Organics is Ideal for outdoor grows large and small... and is not bad for smaller indoor grows, but would be alot more work than hydro in a grow of any size...

Hydroponics is ideal for large indoor grows and works well for smaller grows as well... Mineral nutrients would be workable in outdoor grows both large and small, but alot more work than organics...

But overall... according to all of the experiences I've had or been privy to... I will always prefer to grow hydro indoors and organic outdoors, and will always think that that suits each one's strengths and weakness better.

Of course there are all sorts of ways to use organics, and there are all sorts of hydroponic methods too... Everyone here is entitled to their preferences, and that is really 100% of the difference in organic and mineral hydroponic... Personal preference...