Why are you still growing organic?

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I'm going to stay out of that argument...
It's like arguing whether burger king or wendy's has the better french fry... I'm sure there are plenty of people who prefer either one... and either one is crappy if you over cook it or under cook it... And of course the ensuing discussion defining over-cooked and/or undercooked...

 

[Tom Hill]

All BS aside, ("no need to worry about pH in organics" & "no need to worry about salts with organics" are a couple of my all time favorites that belong right there with "hang your buds upside down when drying so the resin flows to the tips"). Growing with organics is much more difficult & challenging than with chems, I suppose that's why I still do it, it's the fly fishing of growing...

 

[Kailua Kid]

^^^^^ What he said ^^^^^

And because I like playing in the dirt.

 

[D.W.A.I.]

All BS aside, ("no need to worry about pH in organics"

Since I feel like this was directed at my comment, I'll bite...you do need to worry about it if your medium isn't well composted. However, with a medium rich in humus and microbial life (i.e., not right out of a bag), there is little to no need for pH monitoring. I, too, believed it was "BS"...it's not.

I appreciate your fly-fishing/organics analogy. :smile:

 

[Loudcall]

The reason i still stick with organics is that I have always enjoyed the taste and simplicity. The end product tastes better and smokes better. CHEMICALS will always have that sulfury after taste to it. IMHO i'll take soil over hydro anyday .

 

[JackTheGrower]

I have to make my pet soil do something..


Can't stand a lazy pet.

 

[green_grow]

to me, it just feels right . re-using soil, making my own compost, using urine as fertilizer. as kailua kid said " playing in the dirt" ; it's kinda cool .

 

[barnyard]

still growing organic for its sustainability...

still growing organic for its sustainability...

plus i hate the smell of synthetic ferts

fungus gnats are caused by over-watering, spider mites are caused from poor ventilation - not organic horticulture

all the microbes you need are in a tablespoon of garden soil ~ keep normal O2 levels and all the microbes are good

"What a orchestra of nonsense horse shit", that describes the whole Universe octo

for potting mixes skip the greensand its way too slow Skip the lime also. Store bought potting mixes are already pH balanced. Most plants grow best in slightly acidic soil so no need to adjust the pH to 7 with lime

last batch of seedlings did great and were grown in a mix of:
1 gallon pro mix
2 TBL bone meal
1 TBL alfalfa meal
1 TBL kelp meal

supplement with aquarium water for additional N and a light feeding of epsom salts

SIMPLE WORKS

ART IS SUBTRACTION

 

[Tom Hill]

Hi D.W.A.I.

I was actually directing my comments to the forum in general as I've seen this theory spread around quite a bit. I think its even been stated somewhere around here that plants grown in soils rich in humates will tolerate liquids with pH values of anywhere between 4-9. Not for long I assure you. I agree that humus is an excellent neutralizer but no matter what medium one uses, those figures are far beyond critical. For one example, try to sprout seeds with a dousing of anywhere near 9 & watch them just turn to mush. Same at the other end, feed a soil with something anywhere near 4 & big problems are on the way. Dig, we'll not have microbial life before long at these extremes let alone maximize processes & the chemical forms of necessary elements will be all screwed up as well. I think a lot of folks are limping through a short budding cycle with this type of negligence, organics can be forgiving to be sure. But a longer say 8 month season or building a healthy medium year after year will require more active monitoring & sounder practices in my experience. Even with a very short 3 month cycle, if one is interested in the healthiest medium & getting the most from plants it will require the same. I'm not saying that one can't get by without it, but just not doing anywhere near as good as he/she probably could. You know, nothing feels better than walking away after a session of tending knowing that we're not guessing & feeling that we've done our absolute best.

 

[wickedpete66]

Hi D.W.A.I.

I was actually directing my comments to the forum in general as I've seen this theory spread around quite a bit. I think its even been stated somewhere around here that plants grown in soils rich in humates will tolerate liquids with pH values of anywhere between 4-9. Not for long I assure you. I agree that humus is an excellent neutralizer but no matter what medium one uses, those figures are far beyond critical. For one example, try to sprout seeds with a dousing of anywhere near 9 & watch them just turn to mush. Same at the other end, feed a soil with something anywhere near 4 & big problems are on the way. Dig, we'll not have microbial life before long at these extremes let alone maximize processes & the chemical forms of necessary elements will be all screwed up as well. I think a lot of folks are limping through a short budding cycle with this type of negligence, organics can be forgiving to be sure. But a longer say 8 month season or building a healthy medium year after year will require more active monitoring & sounder practices in my experience. Even with a very short 3 month cycle, if one is interested in the healthiest medium & getting the most from plants it will require the same. I'm not saying that one can't get by without it, but just not doing anywhere near as good as he/she probably could. You know, nothing feels better than walking away after a session of tending knowing that we're not guessing & feeling that we've done our absolute best.

Tom this sounds like good info, but what I dont understand is should I take a ph reading of the soil or a ph reading of the water going in. If I water with reg tap water thats been bubbled for 24 hours my ph is 6.4 consistantly, but if I add my earth juice formula in same water bubbled for 36 hours usually my ph is about 4.5 should I be bringing the ph up to 6.3-6.5 before feeding plants? I should also not that my veg formula ec for ferts around 0.65

 

[Kailua Kid]

Since I feel like this was directed at my comment, I'll bite...you do need to worry about it if your medium isn't well composted. However, with a medium rich in humus and microbial life (i.e., not right out of a bag), there is little to no need for pH monitoring. I, too, believed it was "BS"...it's not.

I appreciate your fly-fishing/organics analogy. :smile:

Proper pH in the root zone is important no matter what the medium. In organic container gardening pH control can be problematic. As the humus decomposes and the microherd increases the pH decreases. Humus releases humic acid as it decomposes (high enzyme levels accelerate decomposition) and the microherd egest acids. In small containers or during long flower cycles soil acidification can be a problem. IMHO this is the leading cause of cal/mag deficiencies in late bloom as calcium and magnesium up-take is limited when pH drops below 6.5 in the root zone.

 

[Tom Hill]

Heya Pete,


I want to know both the pH of the soil as well as what I'm putting into it. I want the soil solution to hover around 6.5 at all times. I would prefer to adjust the pH of the tea up before using rather than leave it at 4.5. That being said, I'm a little leery about using the pH adjustment products & would probably seek another way in the long run. I get around this with Earth Juice by using very small amounts during every watering/fertigation. The EJ pH UP is potassium bicarbonate & I'd worry about what this does to the nutrient balance over time. It's also a salt & will likely raise EC levels. It's usable, but if I used it I'd want to increase the catalyst & back off from applying other forms of potassium. Your starting pH is a dream at 6.4, with that I might want to look into some of the less acidifying liquid fertilizers in the end.

 

[Suby]

Cheap and Lazy

Cheap and Lazy

I love organics because I'm cheap and lazy!: smoke:

There has been some good discussions about ph so far and honestly some good points made by both the "for" and "against" parties.
There are alot of factors other than nutes that will have an effect of soil ph and the buffering effects of a good organic soil recipe.
Container sizes matter here, if your growing 5ft bushy sativas in a 3gal pot then expect some problems.
Everything we feed is in the soil so IMO we should be using more soil, the more soil the more room for rootmass and thus we have less problems with ph because there is alot more soil elements to help buffer and soften any drastic ph swings.
Types of soil ammendments and at what time we apply them matters.
Acidity of ingredients and composting times for these mixes also matters.
Some ingredients are too acidic (fish emusions, some guanos...) or basic in certain ratios (wood ashes, the WRONG types of lime...), you have to know the dangerous ones and test them out a bit before using alot.
Those battling high or low ph should know these and counter with the right ingredients.
Your starting water ph and EC/ppm does matter, some growers are using tap water at 8 that 500ppms+ and expecting to throw their meters away and use a recipe from the forum and hope ph doesn't matter, .



This graph shows problems with overly high starting water ph and using lime (red bar), of course you will have a problem, to make ph less of a factor here you have to stop using lime and cut your tap water with deminiralized water to lower ph and cut hardness and again use ferts that are acidic.
Yes soil acidifies over time but referring to the chart the elements we want more of in flowering are made more readily available but this anyhow.
Yes there are rules and a little dialing in but organic soil is VERY forgiving, way more than ANY medium, with true organics you'll get a good heads up before all hell breaks loose in the garden and fixing anything is usually more about maintaining your gardening with teas and applying a less is more attitude.
There are no universals here so to say ph doesn't matter would be careless but given a few minor observations and a tweaked recipe you can definately shelf the test meters.

Sub's

 

[Loudcall]

Suby, Great insight and research . I've found soil to be very forgiving. I love organics so much, that I
have started composting. Hey it makes my life easier. Organics in soil that's all!!

 

[pizzadude]

All BS aside, ("no need to worry about pH in organics" & "no need to worry about salts with organics" are a couple of my all time favorites that belong right there with "hang your buds upside down when drying so the resin flows to the tips"). Growing with organics is much more difficult & challenging than with chems, I suppose that's why I still do it, it's the fly fishing of growing...

i'm with you TomHill! can't just change soils like reservoirs, but both methods if perfected can produce serious dank, i just prefer organic grown nugs.

 

[wickedpete66]

Hey organic dudes. I need a little help here. First off my plants arent showing any deficiencies, but for the heck of it I took some soil samples from a few pots and my soil ph is 5.8. My starting water ph is 6.4 but once I add my ej grow (1tbs per 2 ga)l , catylast ( 1 tbs per 2 gal)and liquid karma (5ml per 2 gal)my ph drops to 4.5 but my nutrient ec is only about .50. My question is since my ec is pretty low to begin with would it be ok to add som ph up to get the liquid back to 6.4



Soil is happy frog with added perlite and ewc at 25% each. I have to re pot in another week so I'm going to add some extra dolomite lime to bring ph up at that time so it should be ok going forward.

 

[floppyfundanglr]

For me i like the no/low maintnance approach. I feed every so often i dont measure my nutrients except by eye and intuition(sounds arrogant but works for me). Also the fact that i can find random stuff everywhere to use, and usually cheap. Im not morally bound from using animal biproducts like fish emulsion and bone meal or blood meal because atleast they arent going to waste. If your vegan and you think its cruel to eat meat well atleast the animals soil is in our plants...haha and in my tummy hhehe. Its just easy plain and simple and tastes good.

peace

 

[floppyfundanglr]

oh i dont check ph either unless im curious and experiment with new amendments that i dont know the effect of. The soil usually will fix things like that if you have a ph buffer like coffee grounds, dolomite lime, or oyster shell.

peace

 

[Dignan]

"Another hydro vs. chem debate"? I assume you mean this is looking like it may turn into another hydro vs. chem argument. Just remember, it's up to us (you, me, him, her) to keep things civil and respectful. Some people take this stuff far too personally, if you ask me.

Which just means that you have to be even more careful about how you word things.

I grow organic because it feels right to me. That's where my passion and interests lead me.

 

[Guest]

middle ground

middle ground

The Ph Ideas discussed here are interesting. That seems the question that begs an answer. Personal experience tells me that while not as important in organics, still this is important to a degree. Get a nice soil mix tweaked or dialled in whatever terminology you use you will know the PH if you have done your work. Black alkali soils are organic but you cant grow in it. So PH matters possibly....The truth never sits in the realm of the black and white but at the many shades of grey that the line fades into. We all have to do what feels rite for us. My self knowing that the plants I grow are not making me sick. I am actually afraid to smoke street weed because I have seen the adulterants added by unscrupulous growers and dealers. Organic products can be just as toxic to humans and plants as man made ones. One rule I grow by is "Do not love a plant to death". Organics or chemicals can be misused and both can grow good or bad plants. That's up to us. We do all share a common bond. None of us wants to grow lousy smoke. Most of us have gotten pests in amendments. The proof is have been infested with bugs or micro organisms that are not indigenous to our area. That's proof enough for me. Lots of people here are at least semi-organic. They are not 100% organic. The chemical growers are in the same position not being 100% synthetic man made chemicals. I am the devils advocate.There is always middle ground and it is always a shade of grey.