War

[Chi13]

So there are 30,000 Hamas members? The women and babies that have been killed were future hamas? All the support and humanitarian aid that has been blocked has been exclusively for hamas? C'mon man, you're supposed to be a taoist, how could you justify this in any sense.... The maths don't add up here man...

Israel has one of the strongest intelligence services and military in the world, propped up by the most effective intelligence service in the world, you don't think they could take out some fanatical tunnell digging arabs without the systematic destruction of those same arabs? There is no context, aside from the western one, that doesn't see this as a genocide.

They aren't deliberately targeting and killing civilians. That would be genocide. A Hamas tactic is to launch attack from civilian areas.

I have an interest in Taoism but I am not a Taoist, or any religion for that matter. Just because I take issue with a word I think is grossly misused in this context does not mean I support Israel, or any side in this conflict. What I would support is some objectivity in this which is sadly lacking in this thread.

Sorry I keep editing, but I would ask, do you think if Hamas was defeated completely, that Israel would then wipe out the Palestinian population?
Speaking of genocide, have you read the Hamas charter?

 

[Brother Nature]

They aren't deliberately targeting and killing civilians. That would be genocide. A Hamas tactic is to launch attack from civilian areas.

I have an interest in Taoism but I am not a Taoist, or any religion for that matter. Just because I take issue with a word I think is grossly misused in this context does not mean I support Israel, or any side in this conflict. What I would support is some objectivity in this which is sadly lacking in this thread.

Sorry I keep editing, but I would ask, do you think if Hamas was defeated completely, that Israel would then wipe out the Palestinian population?
Speaking of genocide, have you read the Hamas charter?

I very much disagree that they are not targeting and killing civilians, I have seen very much the opposite, but I do get what you are saying. I have been drinking tonight too, so my views come with a side of ego that is usually not displayed sober. The taosim dig was too far, I over stepped there, but I do believe the will of Hamas and the will of the Palestinian people differ greatly, one should not suffer for the sins o another.

I cannot ever agree with Hamas, and yes I have read their charter, along with that of the Taliban and Isis, it's important to understand the other sides viewpoint. But I cannot be ok with how Israel has conducted themselves in this conflict and thus I support the Palestinian side. I think it is very hard to view this conflict objectively and I do not believe that if Hamas were defeated that Israel could abide by any kind of two state fantasy, they have not shown this to be true in the last 60 years and I don't believe that would change anytime soon.

 

[Chi13]

I very much disagree that they are not targeting and killing civilians, I have seen very much the opposite, but I do get what you are saying. I have been drinking tonight too, so my views come with a side of ego that is usually not displayed sober. The taosim dig was too far, I over stepped there, but I do believe the will of Hamas and the will of the Palestinian people differ greatly, one should not suffer for the sins o another.

I cannot ever agree with Hamas, and yes I have read their charter, along with that of the Taliban and Isis, it's important to understand the other sides viewpoint. But I cannot be ok with how Israel has conducted themselves in this conflict and thus I support the Palestinian side. I think it is very hard to view this conflict objectively and I do not believe that if Hamas were defeated that Israel could abide by any kind of two state fantasy, they have not shown this to be true in the last 60 years and I don't believe that would change anytime soon.

It's all good, I've always very much respected your posts, even when I disagree. I go too far often and regret it. The Art of War is a Taoist text btw.

I think that the Isreali response has been completely out of proportion. I can't support either side. It is religious fanaticism on both sides, and completely unfair land grabs and oppression from Israel, no doubt. I can support civilians on both sides. I was appalled at the Hamas attack last year, beyond belief, and I lump them in with ISIS. I could not support Palestine as such with Hamas in charge. I can neither support the hardline Jewish nutters on the other side, or Netanyahu and his cronies. I'd love to see them tried for war crimes, along with Hamas.

 

[Brother Nature]

I appreciate the response as well, I enjoy conversation with those whose ideas I respect, even if i disagree, I appreciate the conversation and I think that's something that can be lost when egos become involved. I'm glad that didn't happen here...

I agree that the leaders of each side are not admirable in any sense, so thanks for putting it that way. I too sit with the civilians, I can't imagine any normal inhabitant of his section of earth are ok with the current situation. I would like to see both extremist parties eradicated, neither are desirable for a progressive functioning society, but power doesn't care about that. Hope you are enjoying some longer flowering sativas, I'm going to smoke some and go hang out on the beach where I have some control over how my life is going at least.

 

[armedoldhippy]

it is not physically possible to prevent innocent civilian deaths in fighting such as this. Hamas has no uniform that i can detect, other than the time they put on IDF uniforms after an initial attack. they know that being easily IDed by looks alone is a death warrant. the civilian deaths are the direct result of their tactic of launching attacks from densely populated areas. they spill their own blood trying to up political pressure on Israel to stop their assault. Israel will never allow a "safe zone" that militants are allowed to attack from with impunity. NO ONE should expect that to ever happen.

 

[So Hai]

you are speaking of the synagogue of satan . they do not follow the torah. khazarians are not jews. you are free to think what you like . as i am

'what you have is a form of no true scotsman fallacy'

no . i'm surrounded by multi faiths, in the most un racist part of europe where we discuss these matters

you are falling into the trap of blaming judaism for the corporations and banking cartels deeds

no real jew would steal, kill , or use deception.

No true scotsman would put sugar on his porridge. It is a fallacy of argument regardless of your surroundings. Many people, not only khazars, have converted to judaism making them jews. As for ”the synagogue of satan” it is a biblical reference to the jewish religion.

 

[moose eater]

it is not physically possible to prevent innocent civilian deaths in fighting such as this. Hamas has no uniform that i can detect, other than the time they put on IDF uniforms after an initial attack. they know that being easily IDed by looks alone is a death warrant. the civilian deaths are the direct result of their tactic of launching attacks from densely populated areas. they spill their own blood trying to up political pressure on Israel to stop their assault. Israel will never allow a "safe zone" that militants are allowed to attack from with impunity. NO ONE should expect that to ever happen.

So IDF's and Bibi's declarations that "there are no innocents/civilians in Gaza" doesn't strike you as a 'shoot anything that moves' order like it did for the Marines in Fallujah?

 

[moose eater]

In my fairly well-read and observant opinion, saying that IDF has not been intentionally targeting civilians in Gaza is tantamount to an admission of either not paying attention at all, or a testament to willful blindness in concert with the effectiveness of Israel's otherwise-transparent propaganda being far more effective than it ought to be. Israel isn't even often trying to hide their targeting of civilians. And their excuses when called on it are often laughable.

Pick a day and I'll post an incident where Israel targeted civilians, refugee camps, Doctors Without Borders shelters (where IDF possessed the coordinates), doctors' homes, journalists, hospitals, and more.

All I can think to comment re. that kind of willful denial is, "Holy fuck!"

 

[So Hai]

Well it has more meaning than that and I'd disagree that that is what is happening.

Certainly when compared to the holocaust where they rounded up and gassed every Jew they could find, that is not what is occurring in Palestine.

Not to mention the human soap and lampshade factories, or excuse ongoing genocide by reference to historical fiction. As for the so called surprise attack on 7 october, no one said it better.



Hamas was created and funded by the jewish state to prevent palestinian statehood and enable ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

 

[Microbeman]

No true scotsman would put sugar on his porridge. It is a fallacy of argument regardless of your surroundings. Many people, not only khazars, have converted to judaism making them jews. As for ”the synagogue of satan” it is a biblical reference to the jewish religion.

Aye laddie - right you are

 

[moose eater]

 

[armedoldhippy]

So IDF's and Bibi's declarations that "there are no innocents/civilians in Gaza" doesn't strike you as a 'shoot anything that moves' order like it did for the Marines in Fallujah?

that seems to be how many IDF forces took it. how does one tell an innocent from a combatant before they begin firing or toss a grenade, anyway ? no visible weapon ? how do you know they aren't GOING for their weapon of choice ?

 

[moose eater]

that seems to be how many IDF forces took it. how does one tell an innocent from a combatant before they begin firing or toss a grenade, anyway ? no visible weapon ? how do you know they aren't GOING for their weapon of choice ?

Let me count the ways, in just a few of literally hundreds of incidents.

If a shelter has been identified as a residence/home for Doctors Without Borders family shelter(s) (plural, as more than one was hit in a brief period) and it has the related LARGE banner on it, as well as IDF having GPS coordinates on the places, that might be a good indicator.

If there's 3 guys naked but for undies, holding a white flag, surrendering in Hebrew, it can probably safely be assumed they're not hiding C4/Semtex up their arses, so shooting them is probably not advised unless one is a coward or sociopath bent on annihilation of the entire populations (*You know what they say; a guilty conscience sometimes drives folks to do insane, questionable shit, though I believe there's very few in the IDF at this time, let alone Mossad, who have an actual functioning conscience).

If there's a group of nuns escorting children to or from a Christian church, in nun garb, they're likely not Hamas.

If a young girl and her sister are in front of said Christian church gathering what little barely drinkable water that's there, into a bucket, and they're all of maybe 10-years-old, that's a good indicator they're probably NOT Hamas.

If it's a hospital designed and built by Israel, then it's taboo as a military target, let alone erroneously and manipulatively identifying the water ducts that Israel BUILT themselves, still available to be viewed on original building plans, as Hamas tunnels; also a bit .... over the top.

The days of "we had to burn the village in order to save it" are long gone, and most of us saw through that western propaganda bullshit a long time ago.

Bibi has openly and proudly proclaimed the seizing of all of Gaza as his goal, and either wiping out or displacing Palestinians, something they've been working on since 1948. In plain view, I'd add.

The 'settlers' have been known (repeatedly) to appear with IDF support and telling typically-unarmed Palestinian homeowners that they have 24-hours to abandon their homes and living where they are, and that if the Palestinian families are still there when the 'settlers' return, they'll be killed... by US-armed vigilantes escorted by armed IDF.

Anyone questioning or telling themselves at this juncture that the targeting of civilians by IDF in Palestine isn't occurring, or that IDF, the Zionist Nationalists, and Bibi aren't engaged in genocide are more willing to bullshit themselves than most people I would ever associate with. Delusions, while comfy, are just that. And purchasing a mirage is rarely advisable.

 

[moose eater]

By the way, Israel possesses a registry of where nearly everyone in Gaza/Palestine lives (certainly before they demolished the place, anyway), as well as their occupations in many/most cases.

When IDF hits a doctor's or journalist's home from relatively close range with tank shells, rockets, or bombs, they typically know EXACTLY who the fuck they're hitting.

Very little room for a genuine, "Oops!! My bad!!" moment.

 

[moose eater]

 

[moose eater]

Kibbutz Be’eri Rejects Story in New York Times October 7 Exposé: “They Were Not Sexually Abused”

A Kibbutz Be’eri official said the New York Times's story of sexual violence against two girls is “not true”: “They were not sexually abused.”

theintercept.com

 

[armedoldhippy]

and everyone knows that Hamas would not endanger innocents by taking refuge in a hospital, DRs office, school etc...right ? no safe havens.

 

[moose eater]

and everyone knows that Hamas would not endanger innocents by taking refuge in a hospital, DRs office, school etc...right ? no safe havens.

Do you think that maybe Israel has overblown or exaggerated this issue as well? To make their strikes on civilians more acceptable, maybe? And parroted by sympathetic others?

When one lies as often as the Israeli Zionist Nationalist fascist murdering land thieves do in their public claims and press releases, maybe one should begin to question their claims and press releases more often?

The continued (actual) investigative reporting re. Israel's claims seems to indicate that might be a prudent course of thought in these events. Israel's narratives often have more holes in them than a sieve.

*See the article immediately above your post (as one of hundreds) indicating such dishonesty in Bibi's PR.

 

[moose eater]

and everyone knows that Hamas would not endanger innocents by taking refuge in a hospital, DRs office, school etc...right ? no safe havens.

By the way, Hamas wasn't formed until the later mid-1980's (1987), while Israel has been assaulting often-unarmed civilians in Palestine and taking what's not Israel's since 1948.

How much militancy do you think Hamas would be engaged in, were it not for Israel's land thefts, rapes, murders and apartheid?

As far as 'hiding in civilian areas', pray tell, what else does Gaza/Palestine have? They certainly have no military bases. Unlike those your tax dollars have helped to build in Israel.

At some point, it begins to sound reminiscent of the British complaining that the colonial revolutionaries hid behind trees to fire, and wouldn't march in neat columns and rows.

 

[Cannavore]

They aren't deliberately targeting and killing civilians.

Hahhaha