the potential in south america

[zamalito]

I did take your statement personally though not in a bad way. I'm actually really glad you pointed that out. Its something I should keep on my mind. Since I've started coming to the online community there's been a few times I've felt uneasy because someone has said something that challenged me to slightly change my direction. What you just said may have been one of the most important posts I've ever read. Hhf I welcome you to be frank with me. I have more than enough respect for you to not let it make me angry but let it improve my mission as this is a very serious responisbility I have taken on and it would be wrong for me to let my ego get in the way of this responsibility. Are you familiar with the strainguide guys? I'd love to see you join that crew as I think you have a very similar goal and I'm sure they'd welcome you.

 

[pipeline]

Congratulations on the new business venture, zamalito! I wish you the best of luck. Hope you can find the money soon to get down there and start your work.

You'll be doing the community a great service providing these strains and hybrids. I'll definately patronize.

 

[muddy waters]

a bunch of free thinking dope heads getting organized isn't all that bad now... that's probably the origin of many a good dope breeding project at the very least...

i am very new to growing cannabis, and even newer at breeding it. please forgive my presumptions.

the great intentions of zamalito and the community here notwithstanding, i think the goal to preserve landrace is truly noble but ultimately at odds with capitalism. i think people like skunkman and reeferman are probably just as romantic about the landrace strains from exotic locales but they are not economical, neither in size, yield, or flowering time, and they are in favor with only a minority of first world growers. still, they could be marketed better, and could be adapted to better perform in indoor and northern conditions. but considering the recent dr. greenthumb thread, landrace sativas are extremely demanding of resources like space and time. if the largest seedbanks like sensi can only offer about 20 varieties of compact quick flowering hybrids, think of the space and time necessary to preserve 10, 20, 30+ mostly huge sativas. i think it demands more resources and capital than the current market for landrace can supply. i'd be happy to be wrong about that. but i don't think i am.

i think there needs to be a cannabis preservation nonprofit NGO, which conducts a legitimate seed business but also concentrates on education and activism and solicits donations from wealthy first worlders. i wonder if something like this is a possibility in our lifetimes... i don't know where, i'd imagine colombia or spain or jamaica or morocco to be contenders, but there'd still be massive legal issues in any of those.

anyhow that's probably an impossibility but wtf i'm dreaming of a day when prohibition is history...

 

[zamalito]

30 landrace strains wouldn't be too difficult as long as good seed storage techniques are practiced. With a top quality dessicant and refrigeration you may be able to go 6 years in between stock renewals 5 years selling the seeds and one off year before renewal. 250 plants per year which isn't much in the tropics with two seasons per year with a few exceptions like some of the 1 year colombians would allow 50 plants per generation which could be better but not bad.

 

[Guest]

I did take your statement personally though not in a bad way. I'm actually really glad you pointed that out. Its something I should keep on my mind. Since I've started coming to the online community there's been a few times I've felt uneasy because someone has said something that challenged me to slightly change my direction. What you just said may have been one of the most important posts I've ever read. Hhf I welcome you to be frank with me. I have more than enough respect for you to not let it make me angry but let it improve my mission as this is a very serious responisbility I have taken on and it would be wrong for me to let my ego get in the way of this responsibility. Are you familiar with the strainguide guys? I'd love to see you join that crew as I think you have a very similar goal and I'm sure they'd welcome you.

Hello Zamiloto,

Firstly Z, I have been reading your threads and posts since way back at CW, ive never noticed any ego whatsover. Im really pleased you have stepped up to the mark my friend as I feel you could actually make some progress within your group for the deep good of the plant. Thats the only reason for bringing this up. It is not personal.

Yes I do know the Strainguide guys, a fine group of Cannabis connisuers and Landrace afficionados. I have great respect for their community and all in it. However I mean no disrespect when I say that it is great to be collectors, researchers but this puts responsibillity to preserve correctly these genetics. I have spoken many times in PM etc with Rahan, Kanza and co about population numbers and environments for Preservation breeding. I feel we all know deep down in our hearts that neither the numbers of plants used or environments, really deliver the goal of preservation of important genetics. All we are doing to a large extent is preserving names, 'yeh i got Colombian black' I may have, but the world hasnt and she is not safe at all. Verging on extinct and the special genetics that are in her makeup could easilly be lost from the DCP for good. Her natural point of origin and home environment is no longer there, if she was a Animal it would be on the world wide endagered species critical list.

We all do 'what we can' with the limited resources that we have under prohibitions, but it is no where near enough and in all my time on line discussing this with various groups i have seen not one project that contains sufficent plant numbers to actually preserve and protect a single variety. A couple of nice females and males is not preservation breeding at all.

Muddy brings up a great point in that maybe it is time for a new concept for a Landrace seedbank. Where instead of selling these seeds per packet and marketing them perhaps our friends in South America could become the first member supported seedbank where deposits could be made of preserved seed stocks for the future, and members pay a sponsorship of what they can. This seedbank should be supported financially by the major seed companies, Greenhouse, RMS, Sensi etc all should pay a small ongoing sponsorship for a vital tool for the future of Cannabis. These breeders would have access to the seed stocks held for development of hybrids from new genetics. So would the world and Open Source breeding would be possible where all have access to Landrace genetics to create new Hybrids to fit unique tastes and environments for in the future and of course to devlop Important medicenes.

Perhaps this Landrace seedbank could organise with growers a distributed programme for preservation breeding with small numbers of pockets of plants in pretty simialar conditions being grown out, pollen shared and seed stocks mixed. This way the plant numbers could be high enough to ensure we are actually passing on all the genes within a variety for the future of mankind. If the seedbank had good refrigeration and proper seed storage then it would be possible to conduct these programmes over a couple of years, storing and mixing males pollen untill sufficent numbers had been gone through. By doing these things there would be a true source of authentic genetics for the World, and no doubts for potential seed customers on where to buy there Colombian Black, Red, Golds, Silvers from. There would be a source and defacto starting point.

Its not a huge step, hand out a decent clone and it soon gets into hundreds of gardens, but it could be the best thing thats happened for the Species since the 70's as at this point in time there is no group or individual on earth who is actually doing preservation breeding in sufficent numbers and saving seed to really preserve anything of the potential of Drug Cannabis. All we are doing is losing potentialy very usefull genes everyday, the more hype and interest we create around rare Landrace strains by talking and showing effectively the worse this situation becomes. For me its a no win scenario untill this first problem is solved.

I feel before we just open the doors for all to seed stocks of all the Landrace cultivars we must be able to responsibly, and without doubt be able to say they have been preserved and are safe to the best of our abillites. Personally I dont actually feel we will make progress untill this point is addressed head on and delt with once and for all.

It has happened all before, in the 70s Sacred Seeds gave access to all for multiple lines of Heirloom Hazes, Skunks, kushs, Creepers, Africans, Nepalese and many other important breeding tools for the future. They collected and shared true breeding Creeper Cultivars and many other gems. Not one of these strains is available today in pure form and this is not a very long time ago at all.

The market potential for Landrace seeds is not great, however the costs in South America to do this work are low. So it could work, and with the support of some of the seedy banks who make fortunes from these names and genetics it could easilly be maintained and work. Thats why your group in South America excites. It could just be possible to something of value as at the moment there is nothing.

Having had these conversations over some years now with individuals like the Gentleman collector and researcher Mriko my mind has been opened to the possiblilities. But after thousands of words i feel that, any Landrace taken from source and sold is at the end of the day, Bio Piracy, unless we have done the work to protect the Cultivar first. I feel I can say this, use these words as ive been there, I have as you know actually sold Landraces to the public, every time i did it, in the back of my mind there was this voice warning me. Its not right and neither is keeping them in small groups inaccessible to any other. It really does play on your conscious my friends. It is time to find another way.

Sorry if I waffle on or appear negative, im not and I know there is a chance of a better future. But bottom line is, I am sat here packing up a large quantity of seeds to be sent to A'dam, seeds by weight not numbers, from all the lines I have been able to make assecions from to date along with the rare small lots I have in my personal collection. Im sending them to the IHA for preservation and deposit in their seedbank. I have come to the conclusion that at this time in the development of our Canna communities this is the only way to protect these important genetics for the future. I will give back to the sources seed stocks from assecions made to replenish their stocks and keep enough stocks for future hybrid developments for myself and to share some to the Strainguide guys and your team, but that is it. Untill sometime in the future when it is possible to do this correctly, I have come to the conclusion its best for the plant not to do it at all.

Apologies maybe I should just try and leave this subject alone, but its very dear to heart and I do love this plant greatly. Good luck to all trying their best to do good for mother Natures most wonderous of plants!

My best wishes, Flowers.

 

[Mad Scientist]

But after thousands of words i feel that, any Landrace taken from source and sold is at the end of the day, Bio Piracy, unless we have done the work to protect the Cultivar first. I feel I can say this, use these words as ive been there, I have as you know actually sold Landraces to the public, every time i did it, in the back of my mind there was this voice warning me. Its not right and neither is keeping them in small groups inaccessible to any other. It really does play on your conscious my friend. It is time to find another way.

I feel you HHF... Although I'm very happy the BSC is willing to share some unique genetics with the rest of the world, I also felt a little uncomfortable that it may cause a similar result to what you said about Sacred Seed Co. Landraces may become impure and it may become very hard to tell where to get a certain plant in it's pure form. Not to mention the disappearance of original landraces because they get swallowed up by the market.

Just selling seeds until they run out is not the solution. The gene-pool will only become smaller and smaller in time when small amounts of seeds circulate amongst a small group of small-time indoor growers. I totally agree this scenario should be avoided at all time, but it's hard to accomplish with a plant that is regarded a drug by the rest of the world. I suppose the World Seedbank in Greenland won't be very accessible to us, but maybe through the IHA we can achieve a similar result. I'm only watching from the side-line since I don't have the means to preserve a large amount of sativas, but I'd be glad to help where I can. I'll buy all the brickweed I can if this will help in preserving unique landraces, just tell me what to do with the seeds.

Thanx for your open and objective point of view towards this subject HHF. Much appreciated. Possible disctinction of landraces is something we should definately pay attention to, not just focus on how we can obtain as many species for our own personal collection. There's some more things at stake here.

 

[Guest]

I suppose the World Seedbank in Greenland won't be very accessible to us, but maybe through the IHA we can achieve a similar result

Unfortunately the IHA is a last resort really, and only for fully authenticated and researched seed stocks. They have no interest in storing anything that has been hybridised, or anything not able to be indetified as collected at source, and then only pure seed stocks in larger quantities. So for us this isnt a solution. The WorldSeedbank displays no interest at this point.

The IHA seedbank is effectively a extension of a private collectors work, so this is not really a solution for the plant. Just a protection factor by placing seed stock with the most responsible entity we have accessible to the communbity at this point.

We need to create our own solution to this issue as there is no where else to turn.

All the best, Flowers

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

hello hothouseflowers, zamalito, muddy man, mad scientist, everyone

if it weren't for this initiative that zamalito and luis are animating, all these good points being made wouldn't have came forth most likely. it really helps put things into perspective, really. the work needed to carry out this task in the only way it can be done, the right way, is pretty tricky, because as mentioned before, we are wishing to work with a plant that has been unjustly demonized by some real weird people, to put it mildly

the idea of a non-profit seed preservation organization is very good; specially if it is hosted in south america because of much lower costs.

i think this can be done, but organization must be real tight, real hush too, and with low numbers of people doing the serious jobs, because human resources is the hardest to find; you cannot have your regular joe dope tending plants in south america... u know?

for example, when the plants in the temple had to be moved because of security reasons, and taken out into the mountain where i took them; no one of the people who always talked so well about cannabis and all gave a hand. heck, they would not even receive a sexed plant for free for the sake of saving that plant.
so after carrying 20+ plants up a mountain in the andes, i am a bit jaded and cynical about 'human resources'.
and so, i can only take my hat off to those of you who have worked so many years with this mission and also for all those still inspired and energized to keep on going.
respect.
fuerza!

 

[muddy waters]

fuerza mismo paz! sorry i'm too far south otherwise i would've given you a hand with those plants! i know what you mean about human resources though, and you're right to bring that up as one of the major obstacles.

zamalito first let me say i'm obviously very glad you've decided to undertake this cooperation with luis, so don't take what i said the wrong way. i was just playing a little devil's advocate you could say. so you've crunched some of the numbers then? 250 plants at one time seems like a lot, at least for one locale. here in brasil it would be an impossibility, at least within a certain distance of urban centers. i say this because i have friends with rural property and there are constant intrusions made by locals taking shortcuts or just plain marauding. there's always fences and hedgerows but security would be a major issue with that sort of plant count, i fear. then again i wonder what size greenhouse would be needed to fit that many specimens. if it weren't too large and ostentatious, a greenhouse might be the solution. then that's more overhead though, materials and energy to cool it. i don't want to discourage you or any of us, that's definitely not my intention, just trying to wrap my head around the reality of this.

flowers i appreciate your concerns and i wish i weren't so powerless at the moment to do something about this. nonetheless i think it's still productive to be having these conversations. the best case scenario would be that people with the necessary resources can unite and develop a project. it may seem like a pipedream at this point but that's how projects typically start. it would be useful, for the sake of newbies like myself, to have some idea of the plant numbers necessary for preservation. you said a few good females and males doesn't cut it. how many then? and does this sort of preservation involve keeping parent stock as cuttings, or simply producing successive generations of seed?

let me just add that multiple locations seems crucial for allowing the plant numbers and also safeguarding against possible confiscation by the authorities. it really is a shame that prohibition threatens this type of endeavor, otherwise we'd probably still have those original 70's heirloom varieties alluded to earlier. the one silver lining i can see is that generally speaking latin american countries don't devote even 1% of the resources toward drug eradication that the DEA has available to it in the US. thus keeping a low profile and taking necessary precautions is more likely to pay off, as investigations are much fewer down here.

anyway it's an honor to be contemplating this with all of you... there's a lot of sincerity and passion amongst the landrace crowd here and it's inspiring to have found like-minded folk... god bless the internet... hahah

positivity
M

 

[zamalito]

Since the beginning I've known the growers in south america is one of the best crops of human beings I've met. This is amazing this topic can be discussed with humility, honesty and immense respect for the plant. I believe males may be the key to keeping the gene pool large. Although this effects expression they require much less resources to grow and can be grown in a forest with much less light. Their fertility can be combined from multiple seasons and applied to produce seeds at a moments notice.

 

[Guest]

Hello All,

you said a few good females and males doesn't cut it. how many then? and does this sort of preservation involve keeping parent stock as cuttings, or simply producing successive generations of seed?

In order to make a assecion and really keep all genes intact in the line requires 2000 plants in a open pollination. Theres no need to keep or maintain parental plants. This will pass on 99% of the genetics to the next generation. This is obvioulsy not possible in one go under prevailant laws. But Zamiloto brings up a great point about the Males, I think he may be right. Lets say approx 60% of the population of 2000 required plants would be female. That leaves us needing to use 800 Males.

This sounds a lot and indeed is. But take a group of 10 growers and they all need to grow 80 males over a year, and collect the pollen. Males can be flowered under low watts, flourescents will do the job fine, and of course outdoors in any discreet location. We are not trying to select males, just gather pollen from enough individuals. Once the pollen is produced they can be killed off and another 'batch' done. This pollen is collected, sent and stored.

Then we need to to grow out the largest group of females we can, 1200 will just not fit. So germination of mass seed and indentifications of all phenotypical expressions and selections within these groups for a breeding group of females for flowering, lets say 200 females miniumum. If there was ten growers it could be easilly possible to flower 20 plants, pollenate them and store the seed. Again this would be repeated the next year, and again the seeds mixed. From this seeds stocks 30% would be for long term storage and the rest available for planning the next assecions and for retail.This is far from perfect numbers, but it would be a massive step forward for the species.

This would be a possible starting point. Personally Im using as many females as i can but growing intiailly for and storing pollen from males where i have sufficent seed stocks, although most I have done so far where open polinations just to increase base stocks for future assecions.

All the best, Flowers

 

[deadM]

Sorry of its a bit of a rant but theres potential, massive potential in every equatorial area

including money potential..now landraces are hype and everyone is talking about landraces..many in the business aren't true landraces.
all landraces must be shared for free.

This sounds a lot and indeed is. But take a group of 10 growers and they all need to grow 80 males over a year, and collect the pollen.

not so easy too.it's hard to find some people in order to grow in a reprodution purpose..some are trying that.We'll see

 

[alaeddin]

Hell I deleted my post for the second time...

I hope this thread is leading somewhere, I think it will.

The Hardy-Weinberg equation in population genetics is very interesting, I suggest checking it out.

Anybody could contribute to the collection of pollen easily. At the corner of a growroom or an outside plot, even if it were a single plant. If this easier part could be undertaken by others, breeders situated at better places could get on with the females. I mean up to 35 or even 40 degrees north and south, tropical sativa males will shed pollen, even if they are not the best places to grow sensimilla. I am at 40 north and for about one month, we won't get frost and I think I'd easily be done with the collection of pollen with most strains.

My question is, where do we get the first batch of seeds that the hypothetical 2000 plants will come from, and how will we know if they cover the whole diversity and if they are pure or not?

Ultimately, what we need is a gene map like Zamalito said at another thread.

Anybody who owns a genetic lab?

Flowers, you are not ranting and this is far the best discussion that I have witnessed. Thanks everybody.

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

one love.

 

[redrider]

You would never have a problem giving me some of your fine HG bud Paz. That looks real good, great pics!

 

[maxdrumm]

What are we talking about?.....preservation or bussiness potential??

 

[Guest]

My question is, where do we get the first batch of seeds that the hypothetical 2000 plants will come from, and how will we know if they cover the whole diversity and if they are pure or not?

Thats the relatively easy part. I have sufficent stocks of seed, assecions of naturally forming Cannabis varieties, created by open pollinations, that I would be happy to donate. Would be a starting point for such a project, if there ever was a attempt made.

Anybody could contribute to the collection of pollen easily. At the corner of a growroom or an outside plot, even if it were a single plant. If this easier part could be undertaken by others, breeders situated at better places could get on with the females. I mean up to 35 or even 40 degrees north and south, tropical sativa males will shed pollen, even if they are not the best places to grow sensimilla. I am at 40 north and for about one month, we won't get frost and I think I'd easily be done with the collection of pollen with most strains.

Believe you are entirely correct in all those points Alaeddin, with due dilligence by the growers theres no reason why not.

All the best, Flowers

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

You would never have a problem giving me some of your fine HG bud Paz. That looks real good, great pics!

thank you red! i never have trouble giving free bud away to the good people such as yourself
i think i am going to edit that post because it sounds a bit hash hehehe... anyway man, imagine if i were to start demanding landrace seeds from people who have busted their asses for preserving them; then i get the seeds and since i am a newbie, i wouldn't know what to do with 'em...

max! hola hermano, and that is the trouble; how do you extract the preservation potential without $capital$ ? can the preservation project self-sustain?

one love!

 

[Guest]

anyway man, imagine if i were to start demanding landrace seeds from people who have busted their asses for preserving them; then i get the seeds and since i am a newbie, i wouldn't know what to do with 'em...

max! hola hermano, and that is the trouble; how do you extract the preservation potential without $capital$ ? can the preservation project self-sustain?

I would doubt that it could Paz. There would need to be seed sold I would think, to other breeders in quantity and to end users in conventional packets. I think also sponsorship to some degree from seedco's who would get a usefull boost in marketing possibillities.

Im not against landraces being sold at all personally, just that they must be preserved first to my mind.

All the best, Flowers

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

hothouseflowers, what i said arose because of the following comment that was made a few posts up:

all landraces must be shared for free.

as you, i also think this cannot be done, sadly, first, because we live in a fucked up money hungry world; and secondly, because not everyone who would want free landraces would know what to do with them; if you have to pay for them, at least you know you are not giving your hard work to a clown.
just my 2 cents.
much peace