the potential in south america

[Madjag]

New Landrace Forum - Please

New Landrace Forum - Please

Man this thread keeps spawning interesting topics!

I would like to discuss this whole landrace/heirloom/ibl/hybrid topic, but it is deserving of its own thread. When I have time later, I'll make a new thread in the breeding subforum and put a link to it here.

Mofeta,

Please keep this thread direction going if you can spare the time. It would be best on its own thread and since you are currently the most knowledgable on the subject so far, you carry the torch.

Landrace understanding is critical for farmers of today. The Malberry family, well-known for their 30 yr+ dedication to native strains, cautions that growers "remember the sources" in their seed selection and protect landraces. Even Rob Clarke, in his seminal book Marijuana Botany, details how in the future (about now - since the book was written in 1981, ha) issues might arise that include patents for strains and other legal conundrums. In doing so he mentions the importance of landraces and their protection.

Peace,
MJ

 

[Rinse]

Edit wrong thread

 

[homebrew420]

So where are these famed strains of yesteryear? I figured like most things cannabis they would have been found by now and accessible in some form or another.
With the potential that I am sure is here in the Americas, I am suprised we have not heard more on these. I would love to try some real authentic SA landrace varieties.
This community is not the type to hold out on secrets, if there are these amazing strain still left someone needs to get them in the proper hands...quick. Haha

Peace

 

[guest121295]

They certainly like the climate.It is doubtfull they have changed much biologically in the time they strayed away from man...I did smoke some once, I was driving into Nebraska and saw the huge hemp plants near the road.I was 18 and had already grown and seen enough plants to know it was cannabis, I just didn't know it was "ditchweed".I'd heard of hemp but was barely out of high school, it looked like pot to me and I grabbed a bunch.It had a fantastic amount of seeds.It's a powerfull and prolific plant, I would like to see some plants that had high potency growing in the same fashion somewhere in my imagination at 9000ft in the Afghani/Pakistani region..Its an interesting subject and can be more fun to talk about than my latest cutting affair...

 

[Madjag]

Landrace Sativas South of the Border - Still There!

Landrace Sativas South of the Border - Still There!

A.C.E. Seeds and Cannabiogen both seem to be deep into Central American strains and some South American like Colombian.

I agree that there must be some untouched, old-strain, mountain-grown herb in Oaxaca, Mexico, or other remote areas south of the border that was never grown on a commercial level so it stayed as one grower's personal stash. Probably 1950-1960 weed destined for Mexican smokers and not for export. Jerry Kamstra's book, Weed, journeys into the southern Mexico mountains and visits herb farms that take 2 days to reach by mule. The black&white photos his book contains of this world invoke the weed we're talking about.

In the late 60's I smoked weed from Panama, Colombia, and Mexico that got better and better over the next 5-10 years. Importers started tapping into these remote landraces and perhaps some seed moved across the Mexican landscape and into other farming areas, some more commercially-oriented with their output destined for the USA. For awhile pure sativas with astounding "up" qualities ruled the scene.

Then Colombian sativa hit the market with a vengeance. Good, strong weed with a knock-down high (low?) that put people on their butts and made 'em sleepy. It was a totally different experience that appealed to a lot of folks at the time.

Santa Marta Golds and Reds kept the racy, speedy sativa highs well-represented from Colombia, however they faded into the background as more and more Colombo went the way of weed that would waste you, herb that was the forerunner of the "Couch-Lock" low.

They're still down there waiting for an explorer to come and visit. The remote mountain growers that had little contact with gringos have it, I'm sure. Let's go.

 

[ickybuds2012]

landrace : heirloom

Ibl : has nothing to do with landraces/heirlooms , since any species that only breeds with itself is in theory an IBL

hybrids : come on guys do i really have to explain this one

---

as far as where do landraces originate ...

i will not get into the debate of where does marijuana comes from ... however it is as simple as

Evolution by natural selection

it gets to a point where it no longer matters if at some point thousands of years ago all marijuana has a common ancestor ,, so do we and gorillas ..

because by now in many valleys , mountains and rivers worldwide , regardless if humans got them there or not ,, there are many different strains of marijuana that have been harvested , selected , and kept by the many farmers around the world

and that is what makes them a landrace ...

-- keep in mind not all farmers use gen hydro .. the majority of the farmer population worldwide are Indians -- and indians does not mean india by the way ,, i am refering to the indians in south america , africa and asia --

preserving heirlooms is another story ... it has been done for generations by the indians so it is possible , and i am sure an army of potheads like icmag can find a way to bring out the jewels that still remain hidden .. more people should be trying to do this .... just not in jamaica where there is more dutch pollen in the air than in the netherlands ...

 

[mofeta]

landrace : heirloom

A landrace is not the same as an heirloom.

Ibl : has nothing to do with landraces/heirlooms , since any species that only breeds with itself is in theory an IBL

IBL and hybrid are other terms that are often misused in everyday conversation. They are linked to the terms landrace and heirloom in that they are on a continuum of states of genetic diversity that can describe a given population of plants. These terms also usually define a level of manipulation by man that corresponds to these states. There are a bunch of other terms that describe certain points along this continuum, but I just listed those to give the idea of what I wanted to do. I think that learning and discussing these terms is a good springboard into learning important concepts, Hardy-Weinberg springs to mind.

hybrids : come on guys do i really have to explain this one

No, you don't have to, but I invite you to do so if you would like.

Hybrid is a great term to study these concepts, because to really understand the various meanings of this term necessitates the learning of many other useful terms like the ones above. It also leads to learning other interesting terms/concepts. A couple of them I find most interesting are heterosis, transgressive segregation, and introgression/gene flow.

 

[Dr.Dank]

I have seen some landrace genetics In bolivia first hand, its been a while since I've gone back but they do have some special genetics hiddin in the jungles...

 

[ickybuds2012]

A landrace is not the same as an heirloom.

IBL and hybrid are other terms that are often misused in everyday conversation. They are linked to the terms landrace and heirloom in that they are on a continuum of states of genetic diversity that can describe a given population of plants.

one thing i will like to discuss , since i totally agree with you when speaking IBL and hybrids

you say , hairloom and landraces are not the same ... thats true under the rule that all fingers are not toes.... however, all toes are fingers

accorting to you , what is the diference between heirloom and landrace .. ?


if you look up heirloom in the dictionary http://www.merriam-webster.com/ it states the following ..

Definition of HEIRLOOM

1
: a piece of property that descends to the heir as an inseparable part of an inheritance of real property

2
: something of special value handed on from one generation to another

3
: a horticultural variety that has survived for several generations usually due to the efforts of private individuals

many companies sell heirloom vegetables and most people define heirloom as

Heirloom vegetables, seeds, and even animals have not been genetically altered. They are the same as when nature made them. They are naturally resistant to many pests and diseases. They are genetically pure. This purity imparts immunities that is not seen in modern, genetically altered things. The reason for ensuring that heirloom varieties survive is because of the genetic diversity.

so ...
all landraces are heirlooms , but not all heirlooms are landraces

are there actual landrace cannabis plants indiginous to central and south america?

yes .. there are ..in mexico , bolivia , honduras , costa rica , panama , colombia , brazil , peru , and a couple more places .. from what i have noticed there are 3 main variation in every country ...

there is the red or roja .. theres also the yellow/gold .. amarilla ,,, and the purple/morada ...

and a looot of mango variaitons from brazil

i've had the chance to grow a couple heirlooms .. colombian red and purple ,, and costarican mango and purple ... they are really not that hard to find if you are local and go on a ganja seed hunting expedition, with the correct attitude ... and some money mainly for buying food for the indians

peace~

 

[mofeta]

a couple of questions for ya ...

accorting to you , what is the diference between heirloom and landrace .. ?

landrace = large, genetically diverse population that is in equilibrium with the environment (adapted to the particular location) that while cultivated, is shaped more by natural environmental forces than by the hand of man. The opposite of "purebred"

heirloom = much smaller populations formed through selective breeding by man. They are much less genetically diverse, as they have been subjected to more intensive selection to cause the frequency of certain alleles to increase, and some to decrease. Although they can be (and maybe usually are) derived from landraces, they are totally different.

if you look up heirloom in the dictionary http://www.merriam-webster.com/ it states the following ..

Definition of HEIRLOOM

1
: a piece of property that descends to the heir as an inseparable part of an inheritance of real property

2
: something of special value handed on from one generation to another

3
: a horticultural variety that has survived for several generations usually due to the efforts of private individuals

When you want to use a technical term correctly, I suggest you use something other than a standard dictionary to look it up. The definition you quote from Merriam Webster is flatly wrong.

many companies sell heirloom vegetables and most people define heirloom as

Heirloom vegetables, seeds, and even animals have not been genetically altered. They are the same as when nature made them. They are naturally resistant to many pests and diseases. They are genetically pure. This purity imparts immunities that is not seen in modern, genetically altered things. The reason for ensuring that heirloom varieties survive is because of the genetic diversity.

The definition above is what I am talking about when I say that most people use these terms incorrectly, and why I want to discuss them. It is not just wrong, most of it is the exact opposite of the correct definition. This line in particular- not genetically altered They are the same as when nature made them.- totally incorrect. That would be the definition of a wild landrace. (EDIT: this should read "wild population" By convention, the term landrace is used once cultivated, it is the first step away from wild. I was typing faster than I was thinking, sorrry.) Heirlooms are selectively bred by man.

so ... i hope this settles it ..

Not me, I like to discuss this stuff.

all landraces are heirlooms , but not all heirlooms are landraces

I am sorry this is totally incorrect, for the reasons I stated above.

 

[funkervogt]

Ditto the support for ACE and CannaBiogen. Would also like to throw Sam's efforts in here (his haze x skunk crosses) along with Tom Hill's haze as excellent spiritual successors to the old school landracey hazes.

Anyway, Colombia. My old lady is Colombian. We get down there quite a bit. When we're there, we often get hooked up. And I have to say, the sativa's there are different than anything I've ever tasted out of a growroom here. Soaring in a different way than, say, Jack Herer - absolutely NO, and I mean zero fogginess, total concentration, LSD-like effects almost. All of the best parts of weed without the sleepiness or decreased alertness. Unfortunately, none of the stuff we've received has been seeded. It usually comes pre-rolled but is fucking incredible.

Anyway, we rolled through the country on a trip a few years back and I spotted this plant in plain sight directly beside a cafe. apparently this is very common as the plant literally grows like... weed... lol

 

[ickybuds2012]

landrace = large, genetically diverse population that is in equilibrium with the environment (adapted to the particular location) that while cultivated, is shaped more by natural environmental forces than by the hand of man. The opposite of "purebred"

heirloom = much smaller populations formed through selective breeding by man. They are much less genetically diverse, as they have been subjected to more intensive selection to cause the frequency of certain alleles to increase, and some to decrease. Although they can be (and maybe usually are) derived from landraces, they are totally different.

again ... not all farmers use gen hydro .. or know mendelian genetics .. and there are no huge fields of landraces growing without the hard work of pot smoking indians

i understand your point of view however i dont share it ..

i am not saying you are wrong your definitions are almost spot on ..

peace

 

[Madjag]

.. and there are no huge fields of landraces growing without the hard work of pot smoking indians

Let's not go there.

 

[guest121295]

So am I correct in stating that no cannabis is believed to have existed in CA or SA before the arrival of the Spanish? That's my main question...

 

[ixnay007]

I'd say so, seeing as it falls into the "cultivated" plant genre, just like corn, tobacco, tomatoes etc came from south america.

It would be odd that two cultures separated for so long asia/south america would have both developed something like that. MJ has a long history in india, the same thing can't be said for most south american cultures (though I'm sure a lot went lost due to the conquistadors).

 

[skullznroses]

The discussion continues

The discussion continues

" This line in particular- "not genetically altered They are the same as when nature made them."- totally incorrect. That would be the definition of a wild landrace. Heirlooms are selectively bred by man.

I am sorry this is totally incorrect, for the reasons I stated above."



You my friend, ARE WRONG too!

An heirloom tomato could be a special specimen old Mr Jones found in 1912 in a pack of regular tomatoes, and then has handed the seeds down to his children(from that one plant,,this is the key idea)), who preserve the same heirloom seeds. Now they HAVE continued to grow this plants seeds, but not selectively bred, they are just keeping the kids of a winner. The reason they are kept in the first place is because that original tomato pheno was different then the rest, a rare rare desirable mutation. A natural mutation which has desirable qualities, and is passed down from family generation to family generation. Thats what Heirloom seeds are my friend, as opposed to bred varieties, and as opposed to naturally occurring populations left to grow wild (landrace).

Genetically altered would mean purposeful breeding or genetic alteration. Otherwise you are suggesting all normal NONGMO seeds are genetically altered because they have bred for specific characteristics.

 

[mofeta]

Hi skullznroses

Hey that was a thoughtful comment. Thanks! This is the kind of discussion I hoped would develop here.

You my friend, ARE WRONG too!

An heirloom tomato could be a special specimen old Mr Jones found in 1912 in a pack of regular tomatoes,....

By "regular" I assume you mean a packet of commercially available variety that was developed by selective breeding. We could replace the word "found" with the word "selected" and be a little more accurate, couldn't we? The guy didn't find it and discard it, he found it, and selected it to be the parent of this new line.

and then has handed the seeds down to his children(from that one plant,,this is the key idea)),

Yes this is an example of a very severe form of selection, in which seeds are chosen from one parent that was pollinated by a very small group of pollen donors (the rest of the plants in the person's garden, including self pollination). This works well with self-pollinators like tomatoes.

who preserve the same heirloom seeds. Now they HAVE continued to grow this plants seeds, but not selectively bred, they are just keeping the kids of a winner.

To preserve the line the gardeners must take steps. Unless there are no other varieties within bee-flight distance, there will be introgression of new genes. To preserve the line, they need to select plants that do not display any result of this gene flow, and discard those that do.

Also, in my experience collecting heirloom seed, and talking to the people that had been maintaining the line, they do tend to use (select) seed from the best plants, that most fit what they desire to preserve. They select the best tasting, most vigorous, most pest resistant etc. individuals from which to obtain seed for the next season.

The reason they are kept in the first place is because that original tomato pheno was different then the rest, a rare rare desirable mutation. A natural mutation which has desirable qualities, and is passed down from family generation to family generation.

What you are describing, the selection of a certain individual, starting a new line with it, and then taking the steps to maintain it against introgression, drift, mutation etc is called--- selective breeding!

Genetically altered would mean purposeful breeding or genetic alteration. Otherwise you are suggesting all normal NONGMO seeds are genetically altered because they have bred for specific characteristics.

That is correct. Unless you are talking about a truly wild population, all cultivated varieties are genetically altered. Once you cause the alteration of allele frequencies from the stable wild population, you are genetically altering the given population. I agree that to call the alteration "breeding" there must be intent on the part of the human involved. I personally believe that this intent was present even in the first farmers.

 

[mofeta]

Another way to look at how landrace and heirloom is different is this:

It was pointed out that heirlooms are usually grown and passed down among a small number of people, maybe just one family, or a small community, like the common term for other possessions like a ring or a piece of furniture. The diversity is low the homogeneity is high.

A landrace is maintained by a much larger group of people over a broad region. It is more diverse and heterogenous by virtue of it's larger population size, and less selective pressure by man.

 

[ickybuds2012]

it was pointed out that heirlooms are usually grown and passed down among a small number of people, maybe just one family, or a small community,

i got a cousin ..

No, you don't have to, but I invite you to do so if you would like.

so ,,

marijuana either breeds pure .. .. or ...

shows variations ... when it shows variations it usually is because it has been hybridized ...
either from pure breeding cannabis strains ..or ,, what most people are doing today .. hybridizing the hybrids ..

so ..

pure breeds when selfed .. are homogeneous

heterozygous plants (hybrids ) when selfed show variations ..

.. and there are no huge fields of landraces growing without the hard work of pot smoking indians

Let's not go there.

feel free to discuss intelligently ... i mean pot does not grows like cantaloupe or watermelon ,, do you think acres of weed suddenly appear out of no where ? i would love that ... but behind every bud .. there is a hard working smoker .. and thats the truth ..

I'd say so, seeing as it falls into the "cultivated" plant genre, just like corn, tobacco, tomatoes etc came from south america.

It would be odd that two cultures separated for so long asia/south america would have both developed something like that. MJ has a long history in india, the same thing can't be said for most south american cultures (though I'm sure a lot went lost due to the conquistadors).

... and that ,, is the potential in south america ..

landrace is : cultivated

you got that right

handed the seeds down to his children(from that one plant,,this is the key idea)), who preserve the same heirloom seeds. Now they HAVE continued to grow this plants seeds, but not selectively bred, they are just keeping the kids of a winner. The reason they are kept in the first place is because that original tomato pheno was different then the rest, a rare rare desirable mutation. A natural mutation which has desirable qualities, and is passed down from family generation to family generation. Thats what Heirloom seeds are my friend, as opposed to bred varieties, and as opposed to naturally occurring populations left to grow wild (landrace).

i could have not said it better ...

 

[señorsloth]

strain=an artificial variety of a species of domestic animal or cultivated plant.

race=a plant population partially isolated reproductively from other populations of the same species, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other plants of the same species.

man makes strains, nature evolves races, landraces are difficult to define as the entire population slowly changes over the distance of a region, one landrace afgani can look very different from one 100 miles away...they can't be lumped into "strains". to reference them you speak of the area that they evolve and live in today, the more specific you are to a certain spot on the earth, the more specific about what type of plant you are speaking of. it's sort of a generic way to say that these are wild plants, and they came from here, not a way to label strains, which do not exist in the wild...are there different strains of deer? or wolves? certainly there are different strains (called "breeds", same dif)of cows, sheep, or ducks but those are man-made creations, wild animals are not labeled the same way, you have no Black Angus moose, or Holstein racoons...because even though they may have subspecies like squirrels, each subspecies is not universally identical, the racoons in one part of the country can look slightly different than those in another part of the country, despite being in the same species...those are obviously not different "strains" of racoons, because they were not bred by us to be that way they are just racoons...

strains are made by man, landraces are made by mother earth, landraces are not strains and strains can't be landraces...