the potential in south america

[Madjag]

Speed weed....what a concept.

 

[mofeta]

Hi Madjag

Your posts inspired me to make a new thread:

Old School Arizona

Maybe you can drop by and make a few posts. I am going to relate some stories later today when I have time.

 

[motaco]

I'm glad you like the quote. "Mudbone" is a character Richard Pryor used to do. I forget what album it was on.

Your name though. "Mad Jag". I vaguely have a memory of that being Colombian homegrown weed right?

I don't know where I got that information. Seems like I might have read it on a vintage High Times price index or something.

Could you say more about what mad jag is?

I'm also very interested to see your old photo collection. I'll have to keep up with your posts. Those are great pics.

 

[Madjag]

Madjag and Mofeta's New Thread: Old School Arizona

Madjag and Mofeta's New Thread: Old School Arizona

I'm glad you like the quote. "Mudbone" is a character Richard Pryor used to do. I forget what album it was on.

Your name though. "Mad Jag". I vaguely have a memory of that being Colombian homegrown weed right?

I don't know where I got that information. Seems like I might have read it on a vintage High Times price index or something.

Could you say more about what mad jag is?

I'm also very interested to see your old photo collection. I'll have to keep up with your posts. Those are great pics.

Ola Motaco,

Well, our friend Mofeta has created a new thread called "Old School Arizona" and invited me in. Stop by there in the future for Tales and Tricks:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=4911919#post4911919

To first answer your questions:
- Yes, we were listed in High Times magazine, April 1979, Trans-High Quotations for our lightly-seeded Hawaiian (damn rogue males) and our killer purple Colombian.
- Mad Jag refers to the elusive jaguar that screamed at me one night when I was just falling asleep in our canyon. Actually, it was most likely a mountain lion, but that got our imagination going and out came our brand, "Madjag".
- I will post more photos on the Old School Arizona thread.

Peace,
MJ

 

[motaco]

That is very interesting. I look forward to your posts in that thread. I'll book mark it.

Its funny how the internet is. What are the odds I'd be flipping through a thirty year old magazine I had laying around in a milk crate and then I would randomly be talking to the person who grew the weed that I was reading about from thirty years ago a few weeks later?

You were lucky that was an iconic issue to have been mentioned in. Must have really been something to be an American guerilla grower back then. My hat is off to you. You are a pioneer.

 

[Madjag]

Ola Motaco,

Nice to receive a compliment from another weedster, thanks. Based upon your number of posts on ICMag and how long you've been a member, cannabis is definitely one of your passions, eh?

I have almost a complete set of High Times from issue #1 to, say, 1985 or so plus a few special anniversary and other milestone issues since then. I also collect weed-related books and odd magazines.

I looked up "Mofeta" and discovered that it means "Skunk" in Spanish....very cool.

How about "Motaco"? What's the story behind that? And why do you have that HT issue? Collecting them?

Peace,
MJ

 

[Madjag]

re: "Weed is completely anti-nausea..."

re: "Weed is completely anti-nausea..."

Madjag your story is about opium/tar not weed and the ridiculous story looks even more ridiculous to the people who want this shit illegal.

No amount of kief much less the various hashes are going to do the type of things you state repeatedly to people, or look like tar (unless it was someones first experience, and I've only seen laughter fits). This wasn't just new people as you yourself were gettin hammered time and again, as you state, off just one pin needle worth, one toke or two,of what was supposed to be THC? Sorry, don't buy it and when people say things like this about THC it makes all the people who have no clue about weed think the scary government stories they've heard seem true.

I am quite sure the effects were really as strong as you state...opium is and always will be still traded in the states by Arabs to Americans and black tar will always be imported from Mexico by the truckload cuz it makes more money than raw. In 1979 100$ was a lot and heroin was cheap as shit...so was opium and much more widely available. Pounds of weed can still be had for 150$-200$ near the border...100$ an ounce in 79 for what was clearly not indoor hydro is A LOT of money and clearly this was at wholesale number given the identity of who you were buying from...

I am not accusing you of lying whatsoever as I am sure it is all true, but I can't help but question given the description. Especially since weed is completely anti-nausea unless eating too much...Never have been able to get any negative effects aside from dry mouth smokin...That's my dissent other people can decide I am not here to beat a dead horse and said my

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0765429/

________________________________________________________

Not that I'm accusing you of being in-experienced whatsoever, however other "local" authorities also disagree with your position:

Excerpted from another thread started
by Sam_Skunkman in 2006 called
"5,000 Kilos of legal Indian Ganja"
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=36500

__________________________________________________
I have had Original Haze that was almost like acid, unexperienced smokers would white-out or pass-out, or throw up after a toke or two...
Oh, and it was Euphoric to say the least. I would feel like I was floating in a cloud, or held in the hands of a comfortable giant, I had no need for anything, I was totally blissed.
- Sam the Skunkman
__________________________________________________

 

[motaco]

Well no real story behind the name. Mota is just slang for weed and the first time I heard it someone said "got mota 'cos (cousin)". Like saying "we got weed bro". But I had no idea what he was talking about. I misheard him and was thinking "what are motacos?"

Ever since then its been like a private inside joke. A motaco just meaning pothead. Someone who has weed.

Weed has definitely been one of my passions. Honestly less so in recent years, but that is just part of getting older I think. When everything is new to you its very exciting. But once you are a bit older and seen and done more of it its harder to get worked up over stuff like I used to.

But I do enjoy talking to other more knowledgeable folks, which is why I took the time to build that massive Sativa thread. It gives folks a place to congregate and meet each other and share information as best we can. Most weed related stuff on the internet is aimed at teenagers and I wanted some sort of large thread that could be found on google where old timers could meet and talk.

I do buy certain vintage High Times, or try to find them scanned on the internet, if they look like they might have an article that I'm interested in. Like the apr '79 had the big "grow grass for fun and profit" article. Mexi sativa taken at about day sixty instead of 120. Lol. Never the less they were trying and sharing the idea of American homegrown.

These days I read more about the cartels, and piece together the old history of dope smugglers and growers. Which rarely comes to light until decades after its been done. I'm not involved with them in any way. I just think its interesting. That hidden underground network of growers and smugglers that move tons across international lines.

Like I love that show "Border Wars". I would love to have that job. Only problem is I'd be arrested within weeks for only busting the ditch weed and hard drug loads, and for letting poor immigrants walk by me without reporting them.

 

[guest121295]

Hey can you guys answer a question for me? I've been led to believe, via various history texts that there was no cannabis indigenous to the Americas when the Europeans showed up and that whatever is growing wild down south of the border now was brought by immigrants from the Mediterranian and Africa.Is that old seventies info or are there actual landrace cannabis plants indiginous to central and south america?

 

[Madjag]

Hey can you guys answer a question for me? I've been led to believe, via various history texts that there was no cannabis indigenous to the Americas when the Europeans showed up and that whatever is growing wild down south of the border now was brought by immigrants from the Mediterranian and Africa.Is that old seventies info or are there actual landrace cannabis plants indiginous to central and south america?

Seems like a question for Sam_Skunkman or one of the other geneticists on other forum threads that have to do with breeding and strains. You can easily find them and post your message and inquiry. Here's one:

The Mexican Landraces thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=218636&page=11

 

[señorsloth]

are there really any true south american landrace strains? i mean i have always assumed that they were introduced by Europeans, who had access to indian and chineese landrace strains via the silk road and whatnot for thousands of years...

i mean from what ive read pot originates from china and spread through to russia and india/parts of africa, and all thats in between but most of it's movement beyond asia was done by man?

 

[Bluenote]

Hey can you guys answer a question for me? I've been led to believe, via various history texts that there was no cannabis indigenous to the Americas when the Europeans showed up and that whatever is growing wild down south of the border now was brought by immigrants from the Mediterranian and Africa.Is that old seventies info or are there actual landrace cannabis plants indiginous to central and south america?

You opened a can of worms. Frankly I wonder if while not indigenous it's not very old in the New World and mayhap a clue to migratory patterns of mankind and the associated cultural development.

Also brings forth the quest for the original " mother strain" , and how it spread , along with the question of where exactly along the way the individual mutations became sativa , indica and ruderalis.

For all that's *actually* known this plant could have come across the Bering land bridge with the Asiatic tribes , could have arrived via polynesian wanderings that themselves are still open to debate , the possibility of early Chinese , Arab or African or Indain subcontinent traders wandering way off the beaten path is there too.

Or it could have spread via natural methods , bird eats seed , bird craps seed , seed grows , bird eats seed etc.et.c

 

[Bluenote]

are there really any true south american landrace strains? i mean i have always assumed that they were introduced by Europeans, who had access to indian and chineese landrace strains via the silk road and whatnot for thousands of years...

i mean from what ive read pot originates from china and spread through to russia and india/parts of africa, and all thats in between but most of it's movement beyond asia was done by man?

The lst above is to as degree contingent of which culture is thought to have developed "first" , along with migratory patterns of humanity , it may well have gone from India/the Himalayas/the Kush regions to China and elsewhere , the question arises when considering the s.e.asian cultivars of which way that one went too , did they go TO China or did the COME from China.

And the range of adaptation to climate conditions , altitude and terroir of this plant is amazing when you think about it.Eventually we may find the hand of Man in this , cannabis may well be one of the first widely culitvated crops along with maize , amaranth and flax.......

 

[sweet-emotion]

I live in Argentina and am pretty sure there are no landraces in this country.

And near here in Paraguay, the big cannabis fields are not filled with landraces. Those grows started in the '80 by ducht and english growers that escaped from their countries and came down here to start a cannabis industry. The strains they first brought were Skunk and Northern Lights, which soon enough started to mix, because the uneducated (in terms of cannabis knowledge) local growers that were used to control the fields knew nothing about it and would let males, females and hermaphrodite plants all together.

And this plants are the ones that are used to produce the ugly paraguaian brick, which almost aways comes fully seeded and in a very low quality.

Landraces here in South America: I would say Peru, Colombia, Ecuador ans Brazil.

 

[Madjag]

Well no real story behind the name. Mota is just slang for weed and the first time I heard it someone said "got mota 'cos (cousin)". Like saying "we got weed bro". But I had no idea what he was talking about. I misheard him and was thinking "what are motacos?"

Ever since then its been like a private inside joke. A motaco just meaning pothead. Someone who has weed.

Weed has definitely been one of my passions. Honestly less so in recent years, but that is just part of getting older I think. When everything is new to you its very exciting. But once you are a bit older and seen and done more of it its harder to get worked up over stuff like I used to.

But I do enjoy talking to other more knowledgeable folks, which is why I took the time to build that massive Sativa thread. It gives folks a place to congregate and meet each other and share information as best we can. Most weed related stuff on the internet is aimed at teenagers and I wanted some sort of large thread that could be found on google where old timers could meet and talk.

I do buy certain vintage High Times, or try to find them scanned on the internet, if they look like they might have an article that I'm interested in. Like the apr '79 had the big "grow grass for fun and profit" article. Mexi sativa taken at about day sixty instead of 120. Lol. Never the less they were trying and sharing the idea of American homegrown.

These days I read more about the cartels, and piece together the old history of dope smugglers and growers. Which rarely comes to light until decades after its been done. I'm not involved with them in any way. I just think its interesting. That hidden underground network of growers and smugglers that move tons across international lines.

Like I love that show "Border Wars". I would love to have that job. Only problem is I'd be arrested within weeks for only busting the ditch weed and hard drug loads, and for letting poor immigrants walk by me without reporting them.

CARTELS, you say?
Have you read The Underground Empire by James Mills (1987)? It's a fascinating 5-year journey by a top DEA special OPs man that the author accompanies and covers three different cartel groups: heroin, coca, and weed. It must be 1,100 pages in hardback! It can't be beat for detail and technical insight, not to mention the cartel lineages revealed.

I had friends who worked with family members of Miguel Angel Rodriguez Orejuela of Cali (he had deep ties in Guadalajara) and "Quachi Loco" of Culiacan and their stories seem to match the energy this book portrays. In the end they all end up extradited to serve life sentences (basically) or dead, but their rise to power and smuggling stories are interesting if you like that area of the Shadow Economy.

Miguel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Rodríguez_Orejuela

Top drug Lords:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_lord#Notable_drug_lords

 

[Madjag]

Well no real story behind the name. Mota is just slang for weed and the first time I heard it someone said "got mota 'cos (cousin)". Like saying "we got weed bro". But I had no idea what he was talking about. I misheard him and was thinking "what are motacos?"

Ever since then its been like a private inside joke. A motaco just meaning pothead. Someone who has weed.

Weed has definitely been one of my passions. Honestly less so in recent years, but that is just part of getting older I think. When everything is new to you its very exciting. But once you are a bit older and seen and done more of it its harder to get worked up over stuff like I used to.

But I do enjoy talking to other more knowledgeable folks, which is why I took the time to build that massive Sativa thread. It gives folks a place to congregate and meet each other and share information as best we can. Most weed related stuff on the internet is aimed at teenagers and I wanted some sort of large thread that could be found on google where old timers could meet and talk.

I do buy certain vintage High Times, or try to find them scanned on the internet, if they look like they might have an article that I'm interested in. Like the apr '79 had the big "grow grass for fun and profit" article. Mexi sativa taken at about day sixty instead of 120. Lol. Never the less they were trying and sharing the idea of American homegrown.

These days I read more about the cartels, and piece together the old history of dope smugglers and growers. Which rarely comes to light until decades after its been done. I'm not involved with them in any way. I just think its interesting. That hidden underground network of growers and smugglers that move tons across international lines.

Like I love that show "Border Wars". I would love to have that job. Only problem is I'd be arrested within weeks for only busting the ditch weed and hard drug loads, and for letting poor immigrants walk by me without reporting them.

CARTELS, you say?
Have you read The Underground Empire by James Mills (1987)? It's a fascinating 5-year journey by a top DEA special OPs man that the author accompanies and covers three different cartel groups: heroin, coca, and weed. It must be 1,100 pages in hardback! It can't be beat for detail and technical insight, not to mention the cartel lineages revealed.

I had friends who worked with family members of Miguel Angel Rodriguez Orejuela of Cali (he had deep ties in Guadalajara) and "Quachi Loco" of Culiacan and their stories seem to match the energy this book portrays. In the end they all end up extradited to serve life sentences (basically) or dead, but their rise to power and smuggling stories are interesting if you like that area of the Shadow Economy.

Miguel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Rodríguez_Orejuela

Top drug Lords:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_lord#Notable_drug_lords

I understand the seductive side of that world. Being a guerilla grower brought me into contact with buyers, sellers, smugglers, and eventually narcs. My partners and I were hippies, never carried weapons, and never had violence touch upon us. Others we knew were not so peaceful and definitely not so lucky.

 

[Madjag]

Madjag your story is about opium/tar not weed and the ridiculous story looks even more ridiculous to the people who want this shit illegal.

No amount of kief much less the various hashes are going to do the type of things you state repeatedly to people, or look like tar (unless it was someones first experience, and I've only seen laughter fits). This wasn't just new people as you yourself were gettin hammered time and again, as you state, off just one pin needle worth, one toke or two,of what was supposed to be THC? Sorry, don't buy it and when people say things like this about THC it makes all the people who have no clue about weed think the scary government stories they've heard seem true.

I am quite sure the effects were really as strong as you state...opium is and always will be still traded in the states by Arabs to Americans and black tar will always be imported from Mexico by the truckload cuz it makes more money than raw. In 1979 100$ was a lot and heroin was cheap as shit...so was opium and much more widely available. Pounds of weed can still be had for 150$-200$ near the border...100$ an ounce in 79 for what was clearly not indoor hydro is A LOT of money and clearly this was at wholesale number given the identity of who you were buying from...

I am not accusing you of lying whatsoever as I am sure it is all true, but I can't help but question given the description. Especially since weed is completely anti-nausea unless eating too much...Never have been able to get any negative effects aside from dry mouth smokin...That's my dissent other people can decide I am not here to beat a dead horse and said my

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0765429/

Frank:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_lord#Notable_drug_lords

 

[motaco]

Hey can you guys answer a question for me? I've been led to believe, via various history texts that there was no cannabis indigenous to the Americas when the Europeans showed up and that whatever is growing wild down south of the border now was brought by immigrants from the Mediterranian and Africa.Is that old seventies info or are there actual landrace cannabis plants indiginous to central and south america?

When I was younger, when I found out there was no such thing as American weed my heart sank. Like when I was a kid and found out professional wrestling wasn't real.

Marijuana is part of what is called the "Columbian Exchange". Many things you think of as being intrinsic to culture didn't exist prior to the 1600-1800s. For instance no tomatoes in Italy. No potatoes in Ireland. Both of those things are from the New World.

Likewise there were no native marijuana plants in the New World. They were all brought here by immigrants. Just like any other seed bearing crop.

Funny fact though marijuana was used for centuries it wasn't smoked until it was brought to the new world. Smoking as we know it is a New World concept. Prior to the 1500s marijuana was only eaten or prepared in beverages like bhang lassi. Nobody in Europe or elsewhere smoked marijuana prior to the Columbian exchange. One of the men who first brought the practice of smoking tobacco back to Europe frightened people so much by exhaling smoke that he was tried for witch craft and put in jail. He spent years in jail and by the time he got out smoking had become a common practice in Europe.

Even the hookah is only from the 1500s.

Don't feel bad for not knowing. I didn't either until well into my adult years. US public education isn't too good apparently.

For all that's *actually* known this plant could have come across the Bering land bridge with the Asiatic tribes , could have arrived via polynesian wanderings that themselves are still open to debate ,

The people who migrated during the ice age by using the Bering land bridge were not farmers. They were primitive hunter gathers. Farming came much, much later for the American continents. Its not really still open to debate honestly. There are lots of books on the subject.

Have you read The Underground Empire by James Mills (1987)?

No I haven't, but I need a new book to read. I may try to pick it up online. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[guest121295]

I have also read in another text, too long ago to remember that cannabis resin was found in a pipe near the Natchez settlement on the Missippi.The trade routes for things like obsidian and wampum lead me to believe that somehow in the post Spanish "discovery" some weed may have made its way up the turquoise trail but I have my doubts about the resins in the pipe. I find arrowheads with some frequency, the best of which are made of matierial not found anywhere near New England.I'm pretty sure that the NA tribes had no weed until very recently unless of course it came from alien sources.......Cervantes must have been exposed to hashish while imprisoned in Algiers, no??

 

[Bluenote]

The people who migrated during the ice age by using the Bering land bridge were not farmers. They were primitive hunter gathers. Farming came much, much later for the American continents. Its not really still open to debate honestly. There are lots of books on the subject.



.

Yeah actually it IS open to debate still , prior to talking down to another individual you might wish to ascertain exactly where they're at in terms of knowledge , it might be rather obvious to you that I'm quite well aware of the literature on the subject , perhaps *you* may wish to take a look at how the term " hunter-gatherer" is applied and exactly how farming came about.

Rather than pompously tell another individual " it's not open to debate" and " go read a book" , you might wish to examine the migratory paths being explored and researched by some of the folks who write/wrote those " books on the subject".....

And *quite* obviously given the plants presence in China , the presence of ruderalis naturally occuring in Siberia etc and the *obvious* ( now this ISN"T open for debate) Asiatic heritage of the native Alaskan tribes it *could* possibly be one of the routes by which cannabis arrived in North America , and quite possibly far early than the period which you postulate.

And that's merely a couple of the available theories , roughly speaking the eldest of the most recent , in between those two there are many more. Lest you forget . mankind has been traveling since we ...bacame mankind.

In closing , while you *can* sit there and claim you're correct and that others should " go read a book" , the actual FACT is that *you* are shooting in the dark just as much as anyone else is , there's little to go on that provides *solid* evidence on migratory paths.

By the way , keep in mind that Albert Goodyear's discoveries along the Savanah River have set this whole thing on it's ear again anyhow , since of course they prove mans existence on this continent far prior to the last Ice Age and the " Clovis Period" , intrusion dates ( carbon dated) run as far back as almost 52k years at the Topper site , one in Okla is even older.

There are several available migratory paths/scenarios available and the reality is that probably more than one is a viable route and it quite likely covers a wide chronological period.

Or it could be a relatively quick and historically recent spread such as the example you cite as regards the potato and it's spread from the Andes , by the way nobody has ever managed to get an actual count on how many cultivars really exist as regards the potato , very interesting plant, equally interesting path of expansion..

So obviously there are several possibilities , the Euro-Expansionist one that you endorse being of course one of those viable possibilities , my problem with that is that for it to work ones needs to assume that there was little or no prior contact with the " New World" prior to that period and there's too much evidence that there *was* some sort of contact.

Personally? Yes I do lean towards your hypothesis on the actual route of the arrival of cannabis in the New World , just not the time frame , the Bering land bridge is another possibility , so are the Polynesian tribes that are now known to have traveled vast distances , early Oriental and/or African/Arab/Indian Subcontinent traders etc.etc.etc.

Myriad possibilities , very interesting subject. By the way certain other items may well have been carried from the New World to the old that we're way short of info on , the Coca leaf being one possibility. Interesting too that Tobacco , the Poppy and Cannabis spread 'round the world as regards agriculture but Coca didn't......