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*The K.I.S.S. Method*

audiohi

Well-known member
Veteran
Obviously everyone has their own opinion for flushing or not... And even using or not using a bloom formula in bloom I guess. Just don't overfeed. That's most important to me. It's been touched on and said multiple times, but these things all become much less of an issue if you aren't allowing stored nutrients to build up.

I agree with you xxxstr8edgexxx, 7g is too much. Sure, it works just fine if you watch for overfeeding. Even pushing it in the end for some good stress might work well. And, of course flushing at the end. But, the GH recommended 3.75g works much better for me. Any signs of problems, I supplement with what's needed when or if it's needed. Maxibloom makes a great base which you can tailor any way you want, for any stage you want, with individual salts very easily. But I digress. 100 - 150 ppm max of nitrogen is all you need in most situations, in my opinion.

With low levels of fertilizer, a couple days flush with some cane molasses, or no flush at all is REALLY hard to pick out as not flushed. I'd even venture to say, no flush done properly... would be guessed wrong. My main problem with flushing for weeks is that potassium can be used up in a couple days. You're then running the remainder of the time without the element responsible for quality. What other crops are flushed for weeks before harvest? Anyone doing brix tests on your plants throughout flower and flush?

Again, this is all my opinion and did begin to stray away from K.I.S.S. with the supplement talk, but low ppm's is really what I prefer and like. Maxigro all the way should definitely use low ppms!
 

RetroGrow

Active member
Veteran
"Growth patterns and chemistry change during
flowering: stems elongate; leaves grow progressively
fewer blades; cannabinoid production
slows at first then accelerates; and flower
formation is rapid at first then slows. Nutrient
needs change as growth stages change. Plants
focus on flower production rather than vegetative
growth. Green chlorophyll production,
requiring much nitrogen, slows. Phosphorus
and potassium uptake increase to promote floral
formation. Shortly before the flowering
stage, growers change to a "super bloom" fertilizer
formula with less nitrogen and more
potassium and phosphorus. When a low-nitrogen super bloom fertilizer
with more phosphorus and potassium is used,
fan leaves yellow during flowering."

Marijuana Horticulture-Jorge Cervantes

As the plants start to flower, their vegetative growth will slow and
then stop. The grower should stop feeding high nitrogen; the plants
will need more phosphorus and potassium for flowering.

Grow Marijuana Now-Alicia Williamson

There are many more, but if you have Google, you can find them.
 
I test the whole flushing thing regularly with patients at our shop. 100% of the time they can't tell.

We stopped flushing. We just feed lightly with water only the last 3 feedings. Our plants are fairly pale by the time we harvest but def not yellow.
 

mojave green

rockin in the free world
Veteran
i always try to feed just what they need for their stage of maturity. as my plants reach the end of their flower stage, they do not need near the nutrient levels required at other stages of growth. i taper off, but the taper is slow and gradual...up to death! usually between 200 & 100ppms time they ready for harvest. they say plants don't like quick changes.
 

RetroGrow

Active member
Veteran
I test the whole flushing thing regularly with patients at our shop. 100% of the time they can't tell.

We stopped flushing. We just feed lightly with water only the last 3 feedings. Our plants are fairly pale by the time we harvest but def not yellow.

Not surprised they can't tell, but some people can tell. You are "fading", so that makes it more difficult to tell any small difference. I will guarantee you though, that if you took samples of flushed and unflushed herb, and water cured them both, you would see a lot of crap coming out of the unflushed.
If you blindfold people, they can't tell the difference between Coke & Pepsi, or brands of vodka, even though they think they can beforehand.
 

RetroGrow

Active member
Veteran
I respectfully disagree with both of those

Well, that's because you haven't seen the test. Vodka is a popular, trendy drink in Miami Beach bars and nightclubs. There are several trendy, expensive brands that people swear by, and say it's the "best". Half a dozen brands of vodka were tested using vodka aficionados, people who swore they could tell the difference between cheap vodka, and their favorite, expensive, trendy brands. When they were tested with glasses of different vodkas at the same temperature, not one of them was able to successfully pick out their favorite. Every one of them got it wrong. Grey Goose is a popular, trendy brand, the favorite of many. But guess what? It ranked last when people didn't know what brand they were drinking. The differences between them were even less distinguishable when mixed.
ABC news did a similar test, with similar results:
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Consumer/story?id=3201973

The same applies to Cannabis, IMO. Do you really think that people who buy their herb in a dispensary are connoisseurs? Or that they can tell the difference between herb that is flushed or not? I maintain that they can't. They don't know shit from shinola if they are in a dispensary to begin with. But, can someone who has been growing/sampling herb for 40 years tell the difference? Absolutely!!!!!
Anyway, as I pointed out, the best way to tell how much "crap" is in your herb is to give some of it a water cure. The water cure doesn't lie. You will see the impurities/chemicals, and you will smell them, as osmosis forces them out of the buds. Try it and you will see.
Again, I can't tell the difference between a really "fine" wine, and a decent wine, but some people can. It's all a matter of experience. Give me herb that's full of nitrogen and magnesium, and I can definitely tell the difference. And that's why you don't use grow formula in flower, unless you enjoy smoking nitrogen oxide.
 

xxxstr8edgexxx

Active member
Veteran
this really needs to be put to test with several of the loudest advocates of flushing who say they can tell. I'm not calling them liars I'm just skeptical. if someone could do a side by side where the essentially flushed and didn't flush randomly selected clones in a room at random. cut cured and trimmed them and put them in numbered jars. multiple samples of multiple strains to see if the tester can hit better than a 50/50 average. id call the claim legit if they even got 65% percent correct versus the 50% the doubters would surmise. if they can pull out 65% accuracy of non flushed weed thats significant. id offer samples if such a test could be arranged.
 

mojave green

rockin in the free world
Veteran
this really needs to be put to test with several of the loudest advocates of flushing who say they can tell. I'm not calling them liars I'm just skeptical. if someone could do a side by side where the essentially flushed and didn't flush randomly selected clones in a room at random. cut cured and trimmed them and put them in numbered jars. multiple samples of multiple strains to see if the tester can hit better than a 50/50 average. id call the claim legit if they even got 65% percent correct versus the 50% the doubters would surmise. if they can pull out 65% accuracy of non flushed weed thats significant. id offer samples if such a test could be arranged.
i'd like to see it done at one of the cups! i'll donate some unflushed!
picture.php

:laughing:
 

audiohi

Well-known member
Veteran
Myth busters did a vodka test to find out if filtering low end vodka will bring it up to top shelf standards. One guessed the samples mostly correct, the expert guessed the samples completely correctly, and one was completely wrong. There were some filtered low end vodka samples in there, but low end and top shelf were both in there. There's no question to me if I'm drinking Crystal Palace or Belvedere. Same goes for Coke or Pepsi. I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

Here's the 5 minute summary of the test

http://youtu.be/kO077nu2m5E
 

sidewing

Member
i may be mistaken but im pretty sure a proper water cure method is not the easiest. its been years since i read up on it but i believe it requires a steady water temperature of like 50 degrees. and the bud has to be 100% submerged at all times. then you have to change the water like every so many hours until the water is no longer dirty.. water curing removes all the chlorophyll and what not. so your water will probably be pretty green. but chlorophyll breaks down naturally with a jar cure so i think the whole point of flush vs not flush is whether you want to sacrifice the last 2 weeks to have a 'cleaner' (opinion based) product when you are smoking it right after drying vs letting your plant run its course naturally. chlorophyll is not toxic yes even when inhaled. its strictly a flavor thing. probably why most outdoor bud tastes better with a cure. but its never been an issue indoor for me. not sure why. I dont fully agree with pumping 100% nute strength until harvest, i think letting it taper down over the last week or 2 is best. either way, i vaporize so everything tastes great.

but back to water curing, it removes all chlorophyll and any dust etc. im not sure about salts because i dont think salts are actually in the buds, the plant converts it before it uptakes. but water curing will also definitely lower your dry yield and will give all of your herb a generic flavor profile. it will be super smooth however.
 

xxxstr8edgexxx

Active member
Veteran
. I dont fully agree with pumping 100% nute strength until harvest, i think letting it taper down over the last week or 2 is best.

the plant will tell you what nute strength is appropriate. check your runoff and taper down to harvest. however much you want to have a fade is how aggressively you taper and how low you take it. two week slow fade will give you better results imo than a blind one size fits all method of anything really. kiss is great but its even better if you read runoff and decide if it should be adjust up or down in ec strength. i think you'll find it even simpler if you can tell what strength works best instead of blindly dumping in 7 grams or blindly starving them for 2 weeks. try giving them slightly less than the runoff says they need and slowly lower ec causing a fade that is not totally starving the plant but rather keeping it healthy while making it use its nutritional reserves in the fan leaf. you'll see great color change while the plant is still relatively healthy and able to produce thc efficiently.

these are ideas. its not got to be a chance to insult each other. there needs to be a diaper free policy on this site. seems like some members immediately resort to shitting themselves anytime someone with more experienced than them figures something out that flies in the face of what they think is true. and also slinging shit if someone less experienced gets confused or disagrees with them.

its ok if other people have slightly different ways of running things that is simple for them. kiss isn't a dogma its general strategy of growing weed well in the simplest way without all the additives. everything i said applies but it isn't the strict adherence to the one method some on here cling too. no burnt tips and no yellowing at peak growth or before is my barometer. i watch the plants and apply the info to my interpretation of the kiss method the way the plants dictate. they love it. and i have high thc tests for the varieties i run. i test every run and i get high marks on quality and thc content. terpines are high as well.really high. i can post test results if you don't believe me.

you could even drop into the disp and sample my work, i think it speaks for itself.
 

RetroGrow

Active member
Veteran
How do you water cure?

There are threads here on water curing, but I'll sum it up for you, as I have done it, both as a remedy for over fed herb, and as a test to see how much junk is in the herb.
Take a sample of buds, and put them in a jar. Fill jar with water. This does not hurt the herb, as THC is not water soluble. Leave it overnight. The next day, after osmosis forces chemicals out of the bud, look at the water and you will see it is brown, and it smells really bad. Dump the water and repeat this process every day for a week. By week's end, you will see that the water is clear and the smell is gone. Remove herb, and you have clean herb with no chemicals/fertilizers in it. It will not smell as strong, but it will not lose any potency, and the smoke will be super smooth. In fact, it's the cleanest herb you will ever smoke. It does lose some "bag appeal", as the herb tends to "shrink" a bit, but it is fine for smoking. I sometimes use this method on samples of bud to see how much crap is in it. The water cure doesn't lie, and you will be shocked at how much junk comes out of it, stuff that you would have been smoking. Burns clean with white ash. By the way, after a water cure, let it dry before smoking. This happens very quickly. Forgot to mention: jar should be filled to the top with water. No air. It will not mold.
Water curing a sample of bud will tell you how much crap is in the bud, or how clean it is.
Water curing doesn't lie, and it doesn't have opinions. It will tell you exactly how much junk is in the herb.
All the chems will be leeched out. The better/longer the herb is flushed, the less junk will leech out. If it's not flushed, lots of crap will come out, and you will end up with a very smooth smoke eventually. Seeing all the junk with your own eyes will make you realize just how much junk you would have been smoking. Nitrogen oxide is toxic. I don't want to smoke it.
 

sidewing

Member
im pretty sure the air quality where i live is killing me way faster than anything in my herb. not to mention all the toxins in the enviroment other than air as well. just commenting, not arguing with anyones opinion.
 
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