The History of Herms

[Budley Doright]

One of the guys who has lots and lots of bright green dots told me to post here.....

so here I am....

We were having a discussion about hermies......

A normal cannabis plant has dioecious flowers.... males have male flowers only....

females female only...,


I dont think there is any question these flowers are biologically speaking are imperfect flowers......


He went on to say..... that imperfect flowers of both sexes never appear on the same plant.....


In the same thread..... a guy showed a plant....

it had male a male preflower at one node... female preflower on the next....


He assured me that all would be cleared up here.....


Yet this thread doesnt even contain the words perfect or imperfect flowers.....


So Im really inteested in the enlightenment he suggested.....



TIA....


Here is his comment.....

imperfect flowers never display both sexes anywhere on the same (cannabis)plant!


He also had this to say.....

I thought you were just a stupid fool wanting to impress people with your BS, now it's clear your(sic) a useless troll...


I also accused him of being a karma bully....


I think it was justified..........


4) there is a thread all about the history of herms, in the breeders lab, go espouse there and see what happens...

 

[kopite]

I don't think anyone has ever seen a perfect hermaphrodite flower in cannabis. You certainly see plants that contain both sets of imperfect flowers on them (same plant) within cannabis but these cannot be classed as dioecious but monoecious and as cannabis seems sub-dioecious/ polygamodioecious in it's nature it's hardly surprising we find them, I personally want the dioecious types.

 

[Budley Doright]

WHat made the guys comments the most perplexing......

He showed a picture of a male........ which was reverting to female.......


I thought.....like duh..........


I provided a very clear link....but he was of the opinion he was Gods gift to cannabis cultivation or something.....


Thank you very much for your input......



Reproduction
Cannabis normally has imperfect flowers, with staminate "male" and pistillate "female" flowers occurring on separate plants.[14] It is not unusual, however, for individual plants to bear both male and female flowers.[15] Although monoecious plants are often referred to as "hermaphrodites," true hermaphrodites (which are less common) bear staminate and pistillate structures on individual flowers, whereas monoecious plants bear male and female flowers at different locations on the same plant.


It is not unusual, however, for individual plants to bear both male and female flowers. (duh......)

 

[Budley Doright]

I don't think anyone has ever seen a perfect hermaphrodite flower in cannabis. You certainly see plants that contain both sets of imperfect flowers on them (same plant) within cannabis but these cannot be classed as dioecious but monoecious and as cannabis seems sub-dioecious/ polygamodioecious in it's nature it's hardly surprising we find them, I personally want the dioecious types.

Here is a question for you....about perfect flowers......


I have read exactly what you just posted...... Its uncertain if a true perfect hermaphrodite flower in cannabis has been seen.....


I have wondered why nanners ..... stamens in a predominantly female flower is not a true perfect flower?????


Other reference consider that structure a perfect flower.....

 

[Infinitesimal]

BR,

that guys herm flowers in this post, from that thread I think you are referring to...

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6887046&postcount=14660

are a reaction to environment and stresses, caused by genes predisposing them to such senstivity and subsequent reactions

vs.

genetic intersex where the plant is naturally prone to have male flower buds and female calyx's thoughout.

the plant I pictured below comes from a SE asian gene pool, known for genetic intersex, on the maternal sid of the cross... the mother to that male, her sister was full on genetic herm perfect flowers. I dont have pics and I dont care if you believe it or not....

but that is why in this cross, 7/9 males from 17 seeds were herms (even though I selected a herm free "imperfect" maternal specimen)... and one female of the eight had a couple male sacks preflowers. so just about 50% were herm... conicidence????? or Genetic Inheritence?

you mean like this?

also I was under the impression perfect flowers are monoecious being both pistilate and staminate (like most all other flowering annuals), akin to a genetic intersex cannabis plant where the plant has both female calyx and male flower buds all over the plant and budsites...

and imperfect flowers would be like our ideal, dioecious cannabis plant.

as where plants that produce balls at the nodes or produce nanners are two types of environmental intersex usually involving stressors causing an interference with the plants production of ethylene... resulting in the expression of male flowers as the production of female calyx tissue requires certain levels of ethylene... though technically it is still genes that regulate any one plants sensitivity and subsequent reactions to envirinmental stresses

 

[stihgnobevoli]

One of the guys who has lots and lots of bright green dots told me to post here.....

so here I am....

We were having a discussion about hermies......

i think what you are wanting is another thread about monoecious and dioecious plants. search for the thread about breeding with hermies.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=295543
start with this one. it might be the right one. i'll have to search the threads i've posted in. as you can see...i've made a lot of posts.

 

[kopite]

Here is a question for you....about perfect flowers......


I have read exactly what you just posted...... Its uncertain if a true perfect hermaphrodite flower in cannabis has been seen.....


I have wondered why nanners ..... stamens in a predominantly female flower is not a true perfect flower?????


Other reference consider that structure a perfect flower.....

perhaps instead of flower I should of said plant, I've seen carpels coming out of stamens that perhaps could be described as perfect

 

[Infinitesimal]

One of the guys who has lots and lots of bright green dots told me to post here.....

so here I am....
We were having a discussion about hermies......

A normal cannabis plant has dioecious flowers.... males have male flowers only....

females female only...,


I dont think there is any question these flowers are biologically speaking are imperfect flowers......


He went on to say..... that imperfect flowers of both sexes never appear on the same plant.....


In the same thread..... a guy showed a plant....

it had male a male preflower at one node... female preflower on the next....


He assured me that all would be cleared up here.....


Yet this thread doesnt even contain the words perfect or imperfect flowers.....


So Im really inteested in the enlightenment he suggested.....



TIA....


Here is his comment.....

imperfect flowers never display both sexes anywhere on the same (cannabis)plant!


He also had this to say.....

I thought you were just a stupid fool wanting to impress people with your BS, now it's clear your(sic) a useless troll...


I also accused him of being a karma bully....


I think it was justified..........


4) there is a thread all about the history of herms, in the breeders lab, go espouse there and see what happens...

that is not what you said earlier about perfect and imperfect flowers at all... and you should quote people properly and in context.

this was your definition of perfect and imperfect that I rebutted with my post I quoted above in post #118...

Cannabis actually has 2 main categories of herm flowers.....

The most dangerous kind occur at the internodes.... those type are affectionately called balls..... while the other kind....are nanners.....

Balls are separate male flowers.... they are also called imperfect flowers biologically.... the plant has male flowers and female flowers on the same plant......

Nanners are a different kind biologically speaking they are called perfect flowers because male and female parts in contained in the same flower.....


...

 

[Budley Doright]

OH no.. none of that here....

imperfect flowers never display both sexes anywhere on the same (cannabis)plant!

Splain this lucy....


Reproduction
Cannabis normally has imperfect flowers, with staminate "male" and pistillate "female" flowers occurring on separate plants.[14] It is not unusual, however, for individual plants to bear both male and female flowers.[15] Although monoecious plants are often referred to as "hermaphrodites," true hermaphrodites (which are less common) bear staminate and pistillate structures on individual flowers, whereas monoecious plants bear male and female flowers at different locations on the same plant.


Why dont you give this a shot....

\Should I post what you said about this???


You made yourself look like a pollen chucking dimwit.....


I understand what a monoecious plant is....Its well covered in my link.....



imperfect flowers never display both sexes anywhere on the same (cannabis)plant!


So tell us...are you still sticking by this rather foolish comment....one you reiterated more than once????

 

[Budley Doright]

imperfect flowers never display both sexes anywhere on the same (cannabis)plant!


I know you probably arent as nasty as you came off......


Ill bet this is what you meant.....huh????


imperfect flowers never display both sexes anywhere on the same (dioecious cannabis)plant!

 

[Budley Doright]

In the future..... when Im talking about nanners and balls.....


Im going to say....... when talking about a mostly female plant.....


balls are imperfect male flowers on a mostly female plant....


nanners....are perfect flowers on a mostly female plant.....


I see no reason not to.......
But Im listening....

==================

This link indicates the same thing.....


Reproduction
Cannabis normally has imperfect flowers, with staminate "male" and pistillate "female" flowers occurring on separate plants.[14] It is not unusual, however, for individual plants to bear both male and female flowers.[15] Although monoecious plants are often referred to as "hermaphrodites," true hermaphrodites (which are less common) bear staminate and pistillate structures on individual flowers, whereas monoecious plants bear male and female flowers at different locations on the same plant.

 

[kopite]

the mother to that male, her sister was full on genetic herm perfect flowers. I dont have pics and I dont care if you believe it or not....

Inf,

where they all perfect flowers throughout the whole plant? that would of been good to see

 

[Infinitesimal]

yeah pretty much... it was very different than any herm you normally see.

but I expected it from that line so I really didnt even think much of it... had I known it was of such interest to people, I would have taken some pictures. I still have a good 25+ seeds to breed with so I am sure it will pop up again from that gene pool in one generation or another.

 

[tyisdead]

Great read here guys. All this hermie talk makes me wanna start some bagseed

 

[The English Cut]

Having a weird one at the moment - I took cuttings from regular seedlings 3 weeks ago, then put the seedlings to flower and the cuttings on 20-4 light cycle. One of the seedlings is now a fully flowering male while the cutting from the same seedling is now clearly showing pistils and no obvious balls. I've looked over the original seedling for signs of any more female flowers, but nothing, just balls a plenty. I'm going to use him in a couple of crosses if the pollen is viable and as long as the male stays stable - he smells incredible (which is also how I can be 100% sure I didn't mix up the labels).

 

[Infinitesimal]

Having a weird one at the moment - I took cuttings from regular seedlings 3 weeks ago, then put the seedlings to flower and the cuttings on 20-4 light cycle. One of the seedlings is now a fully flowering male while the cutting from the same seedling is now clearly showing pistils and no obvious balls. I've looked over the original seedling for signs of any more female flowers, but nothing, just balls a plenty. I'm going to use him in a couple of crosses if the pollen is viable and as long as the male stays stable - he smells incredible (which is also how I can be 100% sure I didn't mix up the labels).

it can happen that way sometimes... the plant expresses one sex first then clones switch to the other sex and remain stable.

it probably, (as in I am not 100% certain this is the case), has to do with the immaturity of the seed plant and its ability to produce ethylene... and now that she has matured, that part of her code is active and synthesising protiens subsequently leading to ethylene production and female flowers.


here is a post I made in another thread, which might help some people understand the genetic and environemtal nature of sexual expression and how they work together, though dominated by genetic predisposition....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

there was a paper published in 2014 (posted on here by sam) that identified the sex chromosomes and the nature of sexual genetic inheritance in drug cannabis... the confusion comes from the role certain non coding regions of DNA that are stimulated by the environment and have subsequent effects on coding regions and protien synthesis...

in other words, while the sex is determined and controlled by genes... true males and true females that will never express intersex regardless of environmental stress are polar extremes and are not the common place. What is most common are genetically male or female individuals (determined at conception) who also contain genes which genetically predispose them to environmental sensitivities that lead to a subsequent expression of intersex varrying in terms of degree from one line to the next and one individual to another from within lines.

so the environment does play a role in sexual expression but only to the degree as determined by the genetic predisposition it inherited from its progenitors...for instance certain lines are sensitive to light leaks and even flipping to 12/12... (others aren't) this type of stress can cause a female plant to shutdown localized ethylene production and result in male flowers on a female plant as result of an ethylene deficiency, all result of the genetic sensitivity it inherited from its parents to that specific stress... whatever the stressor may be

just some food for thought...

 

[Budley Doright]

Having a weird one at the moment - I took cuttings from regular seedlings 3 weeks ago, then put the seedlings to flower and the cuttings on 20-4 light cycle. One of the seedlings is now a fully flowering male while the cutting from the same seedling is now clearly showing pistils and no obvious balls. I've looked over the original seedling for signs of any more female flowers, but nothing, just balls a plenty. I'm going to use him in a couple of crosses if the pollen is viable and as long as the male stays stable - he smells incredible (which is also how I can be 100% sure I didn't mix up the labels).

In spite of the assurances....the most reasonable explanation is...... you mixed up the labels....

Occam's Razor

It underlies all scientific modelling and theory building. It admonishes us to choose from a set of otherwise equivalent models of a given phenomenon the simplest one.

 

[genedigger]

no way ive seen a plant clearly flower as a male and 4 or 5 weeks in the top cola turned female and the only male parts at the end where on the bottom few branches.the smoke was decent.it was outdoors and only 1 plant so there was no mixing anything up.i showed it to quite a few folks before trimming it and i will admit ive never seen a plant do this again.hardly anyone believes this story except for the folks that saw it.

 

[Infinitesimal]

there actually has been several accounts of it happening.

a really popular grower by the name of Phillthy had a plant that flowered female, then on the second run it flowered male and became one of his staple breeding plants. I have had a plant that preflowered male, for the first few weeks of 12/12 then after removing the males parts she flowered female and clone generations after never showed the intersex...

hence my ethylene/maturity hypothesis.

 

[whiteberrieS]

Herms: dont need em, dont want em. Don't buy feminized hemp seed people. It's only making herms worse.