hemp is weird some times.
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The History of Herms
- Thread starter Tipz
- Start date
hemp is weird some times.
Back in the old days..... before I knew what cloning was....
I used seeds....
I would get quite a few plants that would get male preflowers.... but then be nice 100% ladies.....
I recall going to make what I called..... a seed batch....
where I would select a male.... and a bunch of nice gals to make seeds....
Well I had the very nice plant.... it clearly showed male.....
so I killed off the other males leaving only this one.....
I was pretty bummed when this plant turned mostly female....
I couldnt use it for a seeds....
Ive often wondered how common is a male plant that turns mostly female...
I only saw that one because I let him flower for awhile....
Typically we kill males on sight....so they never get the opportunity to do that funny stuff....
genedigger
Member
mine was bagseed wicked sativa lookin.the bottom 2 branches grew all male flowers and the top shoot started male but morphed into a female.ive never seen a hermie express itself this way.all the hermis ive seen throw female preflowers and dont show hermie traits untill 12/12.
genedigger
Member
another thing ive seen is an a-symetrical plant that was female.everyone ive talked to says there always males and all of them have been for me except one.if you believe in evolution like alot on here do then you have to throw all these preconceptions of what cannabis can do out the window because it would never have gotten to where it is as a plant had it not done weird shit like were all talkin about
The English Cut
Well-known member
Well it seems those female flowers on my male clone were just a little wobble, it's now back to doing what it should and has balls hangin off it all over. I'm supposing it was the stress of cutting & rooting coupled with the change in photoperiod that freaked it out. Just for fun I hit it with pollen from it's daddy, I'm intrigued to see if it'll be able to produce seeds or not and what comes from them. Here's a photo of the clone and the father plant. I'm afraid I can't do close up photos but anyone with good eyes might be able to spot the remaining pistils in there somewhere.
The clone, recovered.
The daddy. No sign of pistils whatsoever.
I had a couple of male Leb27S plants that sprung a few pistils towards the end of flowering, when I cut the plants, they had some tiny immature seeds in them.
I heard DJ Short saying that he likes to put an immature male plant in with the flowering females so they can sense a male and notfeel the need to pop nanners, it sounded like a good theory to me but I know have a fully seeded (deliberately pollinated by me) female plant going all hermie on me, which kinda blows that theory away for me. Why on earth would a seeded plant go hermie? It's certainly not some desperate last ditch effort to produce progeny. Makes no sense to me anyway. Peace, TEC.
The clone, recovered.
The daddy. No sign of pistils whatsoever.
I had a couple of male Leb27S plants that sprung a few pistils towards the end of flowering, when I cut the plants, they had some tiny immature seeds in them.
I heard DJ Short saying that he likes to put an immature male plant in with the flowering females so they can sense a male and notfeel the need to pop nanners, it sounded like a good theory to me but I know have a fully seeded (deliberately pollinated by me) female plant going all hermie on me, which kinda blows that theory away for me. Why on earth would a seeded plant go hermie? It's certainly not some desperate last ditch effort to produce progeny. Makes no sense to me anyway. Peace, TEC.
this need to be stopped its just not true folk have been growing hermies forever and they like had no clue and not much ha changed.
You know it buddy Feminized seeds needs to be stopped
whats the difference between feminized breeder and Monsanto ???? not much really huh . seriously though since the introduction of feminized seeds, thanks to money grubing companies like dutch passion there are in fact more hermie prone strains out there mutants , and nanners thems are fact go look on here or any old forums go back to the beginning of site in fact hermies back then were seldom compared to statistics today
of course some strains carry the hermie gene in it more then others really hermies is a GENE activated by some cause ..
I have had strains that i threw everything possible to make it hermie and guess what Not a fucking chance...
But wait do you dare me to go purchase some fem seeds ?? i bet i can make it hermie litteraly over night don't kid your self ...
When a person infact takes half the genetic material away what do you think will happen seriously look at the banana panama disease you ever find a seed in a banana ??? what happened to them the could not even fight off a disease and now cause of lack of genetic material in the plant the species is on verge of extinction in your life time
Attachments
You know it buddy Feminized seeds needs to be stopped
whats the difference between feminized breeder and Monsanto ???? not much really huh . seriously though since the introduction of feminized seeds, thanks to money grubing companies like dutch passion there are in fact more hermie prone strains out there mutants , and nanners thems are fact go look on here or any old forums go back to the beginning of site in fact hermies back then were seldom compared to statistics today
of course some strains carry the hermie gene in it more then others really hermies is a GENE activated by some cause ..
I have had strains that i threw everything possible to make it hermie and guess what Not a fucking chance...
But wait do you dare me to go purchase some fem seeds ?? i bet i can make it hermie litteraly over night don't kid your self ...
I have never sold one single all female seed. Not one, but you are wrong about all female seeds being more intersexed. What makes progeny intersex is using intersex parents to make them, be they all female seeds or dioecious seed.
I can guarantee that you can make all females that will not express intersex, you can do anything (but spray them with STS that will make them form male flowers), but even then the genes have not changed, they are female expressing male flowers but just transitory.
When a person infact takes half the genetic material away what do you think will happen seriously look at the banana panama disease you ever find a seed in a banana ??? what happened to them the could not even fight off a disease and now cause of lack of genetic material in the plant the species is on verge of extinction in your life time
Do you understand why bananas have so few seeds?
The species is not on the verge of extinction, a few varieties that are the most grown are in danger not the species. Cavendish group are at risk, just like the Gros Michel that was the worlds most exported banana until the 50's and wiped out by Panama disease.
The real problem is lack of genetic diversity, and mono-cropping world wide.
-SamS
Kudos
Yup was referring to what people eat,, rather then the wild ones meant to say
Do you not believe from selfing or feminized seeds will indeed over some time cause more issues lets face it we are seeing more mutant, more hermies , and more nanners in feminized strain varieties
Sometimes playing god can have its consequences ,,
Truthfully speaking its a lazy mans way to grow or its ideal for the inexperienced grower but again who are you really cheating but your self the knowledge of actual growing understanding sexing knowing what to look for bringing you to new levels of experience right ????
just like cheating in high school might be great at the time ,, but when you really need that knowledge... in real life,,you will not have it .. and you cheated your self out ..
although i think selfing can be beneficial for breeders or for someone that has the last strain of its kind in existence. but i think i you do not add new genes into it after time it will start to die off
Evolution everything needs to change same thing applies for plants when you take away that from the equation its just a matter of time when a new strain of bacteria , insect will destroy it cause plant cannot adabt cause in a sense you froze it and took away that availability ..
All fem seed breeders should put a guarantee on there product that it will not herm or produce nanners
cause am pretty confident i can make all fem seeds on the market hermie run temps in the 90's as cold as near freezing lights on for a week off for a week and so on root bind them there hermie guarnteed and like i said have tried many reg seed runs pure power plant , Afghanistan, bubble gum M39, northern lights and i be dammed if i could ever get them to hermie and trust me i tried
Here is a test 10 fem beans vs 10 reg beans which would you bet to hermie first Anyone ???
genedigger
Member
not all plants change garlic and cattails have been the same since the dinosuars were around.and garlic has been extensively cultivated by humans and its one of the most disease resistant predictable plants you can grow
Adze
Member
Feminization doesn't cause hermies. If you feminize hermie prone genetics you get hermies. Feminization does not change the genes. However if you’re inbreeding, using the same female for the pollen and mother, using a sister plant etc. then you’ll see both more of the recessive traits and more hermies. It has to do with inbreeding not feminization.
When the genes of two plants meet, the chromosomes all get thrown into a proverbial bag, shaken well, and thrown out in different combination.
The resulting progeny show characteristics of both plants in various ways.
Often times when recombining two plants that are polar opposites of one another, ie...a short season indica and a long flowering sativa, the resulting progeny will often show a good high degree of hybrid vigor and health.
On the other hand, if we breed two sibling plants, or plants of the same strain, the resulting progeny are far less diverse. A continuation of generation of a cross of similar genetics can eventually run into a phenomenon of inbreeding depression. The genetic material available (or lack of) for each subsequent breeding can lead the plant to less vigor and sometimes mutations that were once latent, can now show themselves.
When we force a female to pollinate herself, she has a stand of DNA that contains her genes, which is bred to an identical strand of genes. If we think about it, we have cut the available genetic material in half when we self a female. And the result can often times lead to the inbreeding depression I mentioned.
Of course it changes the genes
Yes, the two genetic maps of a forced female and herself are identical, but they get shaken up in the proverbial bag I mentioned, and the result can be close to the original but not always. It will depend on how the shake out takes.
Thing is, we have shorted ourself genetic material when we create an S1 and luck must be with us if we are to hope to get seeds that will be identical to the mother and donor.
And we will still need to do a grow and selection of the progeny to find the ones that shook out similar to the moms. We simply can't trust that S1 seeds will result in the same plant. Chances are there that it can, but also that it won't.
hey DrFever,
I took the time to adress some of your comments, I hope you dont mind and take it constructively...
please research meiosis, gamete and zygote formation... this comment shows your ignorance of the facts, infact. The only gene missing when making fem seeds is the Y sex chromosome... which is absent in females from standard crosses as well for if it had the Y chromosome it would be a male... females from standard seeds have no more chromosomes than females from fem seeds. That is BS propoganda.
Sam already answered this question and hit the nail right on the head in terms of the origin and the maintainence of the herm traits in cannabis...
so you think god is spraying plants with STS to interfer with ethylene production?
your philosophy regarding evolution is a bit flawed, populations of species evolve into ecological niches... then once at a homeostasis with its environment there is a limited amount of genetic variability that will evolve and survive that evironemnt... evolution never really stops and mutations occur at statistically constant rates, but any mutation outside the niche range and not benficial to the individuals likelyhood of success in life and mating then gets naturally culled by the environemnt or the population itself.
what you speak of is actually negative to a certain extent, and is a part of the risks we face or may face in the future of cannabis if things dont start chaning in regards to varieties people grow and are breeding with (which I think they are starting to).
that is to say, if populations are constantly crossed with other varieties generation after generation... what will arise is a genetic bottleneck where all the "different" varieties are so inter-related that if some (hypothetical) catostrophic pest or disease does whipe out modern cannabis due to its inability to defend itself with a genetic immune response.
And if breeders haven't maintained pure lines, which act as a genetic library of the past, then there will be no possiblity to search for plants that still have the genes necessary to defend themselves and reintroduce those genes back into the gene pool at large to try and save what varieties we can... because we constantly iintroduced crosses to crosses of crosses of crosses until certain genes are lost or only exist at unrealistic probabilites...
so keeping lines segregated is actually really important to evolution and species health... adaptation to envirnment is more about genetic diversity which equates to population size rather than keeping a variety pure... because of cannabis' genetic complexity and its inhertance patterns, like people, vareability is inherent even in an isolated population of decent size (tens of thousands plants, so you can see the problem ;D). And note that I said "species health" and not strain, a variety being culled by the evironment is part of evolution and as long as varieties have been kept and breed pure then maybe only one will be lost and the other will survive while if the two were crossed then they both may be susceptible to the pandemic, you see?
that is unrealistic, cannabis had to have evolved from a monoecious common ancestor to other annual flowers... therefore all cannabis has (to some extent or another) the genes necessary and the ability to express intersex and the rate and type of expression exist on a spectrum within the species... the individuals and populations that cannot even under chemical treatment not reverse and are therefore true male or female are highly rare and are probabilistic anomalies at the extreme polls of sexual expression in cannabis... from my study.
see, that would prove nothing... even if you used self fem beans vs. reg beans using the same female x'd to her father or sibling and even if you grew out thousands of those seeds, you couldnt quantify if it was the act of selfing that caused the higher rate of intersex or just the fact that the individual female used is just one genetically prone to intersex so when she is crossed to a stable individual (beit male or female) the incidence of intersex can be reduced. so it would be the genes you mixed into the female that is responsable for the stability and not the lack of new genetic material
Cause and Effect - Correlation does not equal Causation!
don't take this personal, this is just as much food for thought for others as it was directed at you.
Peace,
-Infinitesimal
I took the time to adress some of your comments, I hope you dont mind and take it constructively...
please research meiosis, gamete and zygote formation... this comment shows your ignorance of the facts, infact. The only gene missing when making fem seeds is the Y sex chromosome... which is absent in females from standard crosses as well for if it had the Y chromosome it would be a male... females from standard seeds have no more chromosomes than females from fem seeds. That is BS propoganda.
Sam already answered this question and hit the nail right on the head in terms of the origin and the maintainence of the herm traits in cannabis...
so you think god is spraying plants with STS to interfer with ethylene production?
your philosophy regarding evolution is a bit flawed, populations of species evolve into ecological niches... then once at a homeostasis with its environment there is a limited amount of genetic variability that will evolve and survive that evironemnt... evolution never really stops and mutations occur at statistically constant rates, but any mutation outside the niche range and not benficial to the individuals likelyhood of success in life and mating then gets naturally culled by the environemnt or the population itself.
what you speak of is actually negative to a certain extent, and is a part of the risks we face or may face in the future of cannabis if things dont start chaning in regards to varieties people grow and are breeding with (which I think they are starting to).
that is to say, if populations are constantly crossed with other varieties generation after generation... what will arise is a genetic bottleneck where all the "different" varieties are so inter-related that if some (hypothetical) catostrophic pest or disease does whipe out modern cannabis due to its inability to defend itself with a genetic immune response.
And if breeders haven't maintained pure lines, which act as a genetic library of the past, then there will be no possiblity to search for plants that still have the genes necessary to defend themselves and reintroduce those genes back into the gene pool at large to try and save what varieties we can... because we constantly iintroduced crosses to crosses of crosses of crosses until certain genes are lost or only exist at unrealistic probabilites...
so keeping lines segregated is actually really important to evolution and species health... adaptation to envirnment is more about genetic diversity which equates to population size rather than keeping a variety pure... because of cannabis' genetic complexity and its inhertance patterns, like people, vareability is inherent even in an isolated population of decent size (tens of thousands plants, so you can see the problem ;D). And note that I said "species health" and not strain, a variety being culled by the evironment is part of evolution and as long as varieties have been kept and breed pure then maybe only one will be lost and the other will survive while if the two were crossed then they both may be susceptible to the pandemic, you see?
All fem seed breeders should put a guarantee on there product that it will not herm or produce nanners
and like i said have tried many reg seed runs pure power plant , Afghanistan, bubble gum M39, northern lights and i be dammed if i could ever get them to hermie and trust me i tried
that is unrealistic, cannabis had to have evolved from a monoecious common ancestor to other annual flowers... therefore all cannabis has (to some extent or another) the genes necessary and the ability to express intersex and the rate and type of expression exist on a spectrum within the species... the individuals and populations that cannot even under chemical treatment not reverse and are therefore true male or female are highly rare and are probabilistic anomalies at the extreme polls of sexual expression in cannabis... from my study.
see, that would prove nothing... even if you used self fem beans vs. reg beans using the same female x'd to her father or sibling and even if you grew out thousands of those seeds, you couldnt quantify if it was the act of selfing that caused the higher rate of intersex or just the fact that the individual female used is just one genetically prone to intersex so when she is crossed to a stable individual (beit male or female) the incidence of intersex can be reduced. so it would be the genes you mixed into the female that is responsable for the stability and not the lack of new genetic material
Cause and Effect - Correlation does not equal Causation!
don't take this personal, this is just as much food for thought for others as it was directed at you.
Peace,
-Infinitesimal
the bag shaking up you are refering to is called chromosomal crossover, and it happens regardless of sefl or m/f like you said, rendering that aruguement moot.
you are reciting hearsay, in regards to hybrid vigor how do you explain inbred homozygous lines from tropical and equatorial varieties which are extremely vigorous?
the answer would be that they are selected from large populations and for individuals that maintain vigor as part of thier natural evolution to the evironment and the light cycles
for sure bro!! reading and critical thinking can sometimes be an aquired taste... not everyone (has the stomache so to speak), is up for the task in order, to gain an actual understanding of some of the underlying laws and processes.
thanks for your insightful rebutal to the info though... milk for babes, meat for strong men... mommas tit probably taste better to you
I'd say about 22,000 employees, many with PhDs in their field of study and about 1.5 billion dollars annually in R&D.
But that sounds pretty similar to a stoner who had to google how to make STS and had access to a four banger.
No it does not happen regardless your crossing over half of the genetic make up of the plant there for in time possibly few generations with out new genes added the plant will lose it vigor more or less die out tell me you know anyone with fem seeded plant clone after clone lets say 10 years old ??? i would like to see a 10 year old fem plant
Genetically and according to current knowledge it is impossible to get a true male from a female by selfing. There is no way an Y chromosome can just pop out of an X one.
Though, it could be a fully sex reversed female which in turn may be inherited; the offspring will be genetically female. Experiments done with hemp suggest that most of the offspring will be highly hermaphroditic or fully sex reversed. It seems very unlikely that the offspring segregates into some normal females and some 'fully reversed females' but no or nearly no 'normal' hermaphrodites in a way that people might think of a normal sex distribution involving an Y allosome.
Logically speaking, it's either an extreme form of hermaphroditism or more likely stray pollen. Cannabis pollen is able to travel very long distances and get into a home or grow cabinet through tiny cracks or on your cloths. There's as good as never a 'not possible'.
__________________
monsanto is trying to breed plants that wont make viable seed so you have to return to buy their seed, that is a major gap between someone selling fem seeds...
after accquiring the fem seeds and selecting a keeper, anyone can then self that plant... and it is still capable of being outcrossed and backcrossed... so comparing self seeds to terminator seeds (as I think that is the implication) is not founded... again propoganda.
after accquiring the fem seeds and selecting a keeper, anyone can then self that plant... and it is still capable of being outcrossed and backcrossed... so comparing self seeds to terminator seeds (as I think that is the implication) is not founded... again propoganda.
Genetically and according to current knowledge it is impossible to get a true male from a female by selfing. There is no way an Y chromosome can just pop out of an X one.
Though, it could be a fully sex reversed female which in turn may be inherited; the offspring will be genetically female. Experiments done with hemp suggest that most of the offspring will be highly hermaphroditic or fully sex reversed. It seems very unlikely that the offspring segregates into some normal females and some 'fully reversed females' but no or nearly no 'normal' hermaphrodites in a way that people might think of a normal sex distribution involving an Y allosome.
Logically speaking, it's either an extreme form of hermaphroditism or more likely stray pollen. Cannabis pollen is able to travel very long distances and get into a home or grow cabinet through tiny cracks or on your cloths. There's as good as never a 'not possible'.
__________________
I dont really know what this has to do with my post you quoted... I never said anywhere a true male can come from a fem cross, I said a true male or true female was a rare anomaly...
I never suggested that a Y chromsome can come from an XX plant... just that a cannabis plant doesnt necessarily need a Y chromosome to express male
I will suggest you study protein synthesis, there are loci on the chromosome responsible and coded for the production of ethylene... if this part of the DNA is damaged or interupted via STS, silver or the environment then even an XX plant wont be able to produce sufficient ethylene to express itself female and will result in a XX female with male flowers...
it happens in CBG's cross known as peyote purple... a fem cross but regularly expresses males?
