The History of Herms

[KiefSweat]

reg seed would be dioecious, fem seed monoecious.
The fact that you can reverse most plants and that there are still large degrees of sexual expression on the plant would probably classify it as subdioecious or something that is in between the two.
Selecting and breeding artificial populations is kind of the argument here, but unless someone has created a purely female seed lot the plants will revert themselves back to more normal forms of sexual expression. You can debate weather intersex forms are natural or not.

one dude growing six seeds that he purchased probably means a few thousand more people are growing the same seed. Thats more people with less plants each to look at and a higher degree of selection then one dude in a large field.

 

[symbiote420]

reg seed would be dioecious, fem seed monoecious.
The fact that you can reverse most plants and that there are still large degrees of sexual expression on the plant would probably classify it as subdioecious or something that is in between the two.
Selecting and breeding artificial populations is kind of the argument here, but unless someone has created a purely female seed lot the plants will revert themselves back to more normal forms of sexual expression. You can debate weather intersex forms are natural or not.

one dude growing six seeds that he purchased probably means a few thousand more people are growing the same seed. Thats more people with less plants each to look at and a higher degree of selection then one dude in a large field.

^^Polygamo-dioecious!!!

Proper selection(s) are one of the most essential parts of any breeding program..... Sam's right about like begets like, a proven male/female even if found in "hermie" laden genepool(s) will give rise to progeny less likely to "herm"

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Like begets like..... I like everyone else back then used sssc, and the seed bank, senimilla tips all that. Not being on the west coast had its disadvantages, but longevity and persistence and luck never hurt.
Back about mid 70s, I didn't know squat, but after I got genetics from Neville, those were pretty much all I worked for a long period, and no I didn't have intersex issues with those genetics.

You never saw a intersex NL? Or Mazar? From Nevil?


I first saw a few when I started with the predominant landrace sativas, but then it was not like u suggest prevailent.

What landrace Sativa? NLD you mean?

The proliferation now should be obvious to you. Every child or marketing fanboy that can muster a hundred bucks becomes a breeder or a chuck of strains that have already been bastardized, it's exponential. Then u have the glitz queens that don't give a shit about the genetics they just wanna make a buck,and they are quick to point that out. I suppose if I had to condense to one word it would be, ACCESSIBILITY.

I do not grow out many other breeders seeds, very few very seldom.

Accessibility, greed, inexperience, and ultimately lack of respect for the plant, chasing the latest crap, Chemical inducements, surely the exponentiality is not lost on you!

I do not think that STS for example causes intersex, it is using intersex plants to then treat with STS for a pollen source, or use as a seed parent that will give intersex progeny.
If intersex is gene based, and I assume it is as it can be inherited, then get rid of the plants that carry the gene for intersex or genes that cause intersex expression.

You have no hope to eliminate greed or stupidity, you can focus on intersex and lower the incidence.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

cannabis will never revert back to being dioecious.theres to many people breeding this plant.ive seen a few strain hunter episodes where the farmers growing cannabis were not removing their males from the fields.this is still happening all over the earth on a large scale.somne regions are growing intersexed plants hindu kush and other strains from that area are all reproduced with intersexed seed,but most cannabis grown today is done with reg seed.all these growers growing there 6 fem seeds indoors does not accurately compare to the farmer in columbia who starts thousands of plants every year from reg seeds he saved.

Are you mixed up?
Cannabis is dioecious.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Many plants in a population are intersex, other genes decide whether it expresses as a strong male/female or prone to herm or as a full-on herm. All these intersex plants can be made to herm through environmental or chemical stress and vice versa, plants that herm through use of STS are intersex.
True males and females combined yield intersex plants as well as true males/females.

Genetically intersex or just as expression? If genetically where did they inherit the intersex genes from? Maybe the so called true females or males were not so true?

True males/females cannot be reversed.
S1 plants can be more hermaprone as you inbreed the genetics that make it herm under certain conditions. But it doesn't have to if it's a strong male or female.

The genes for hermaphroditism are interesting from an evolutionary standpoint. Populations that have big numbers in small areas will select against full-on herms while populations with small numbers in large areas will have more full-on herms as more viable seed would be made than through male/female combination.

Correct me if I'm wrong

I have found that most intersex seems to be related to traditional sinsemilla production, think about it. The farmer kills all the males to produce sinsemilla, he gets just a few seeds in his crop from intersex male flowers, if they are used by anyone to grow next years crop then the incidence of intersex increases in that crop, after 100 years of the same you end up with Cannabis like Thai, intersex for sure in most plants. Traditional sinsemilla areas had professional "Poddars" that went through farmers fields removing all males and any intersex plants, after the traditional system failed or ended due to police and government suppression, intersex just became the norm. And at least lightly seeded plants.

I also see a lot in populations where the traditional farmers don't really know what they are doing, they have no idea that using intersex parents yield intersex progeny or they really don't care, they are just trying to grow a crop for personal use or as a cash crop, and if potent and a good yield they are happy.

Also monoecious varieties of hemp have to be maintained by man, without man it will revert to dioecious pretty fast.
-SamS

 

[KiefSweat]

I would think arrival at the equator caused more issues then adaption of moving north and selection of plants that had an earlier flowering then probably a 15 hour critical night length naturally.

Sam have you seen a difference in the numbers of inter-sexed plants depending on the latitude it was collected?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I would think arrival at the equator caused more issues then adaption of moving north and selection of plants that had an earlier flowering then probably a 15 hour critical night length naturally.

Sam have you seen a difference in the numbers of inter-sexed plants depending on the latitude it was collected?

I would agree, maybe the equator first then where ever the hand of man allowed it to happen. For what ever end use.

I do not believe Cannabis is naturally inclined to express intersex or monoecious plants and certainly not inclined to maintain them without the hand of man. Growing for sinsemilla production and allowing any intersex plants male flowers to pollinate the crop will increase the intersex load in the area if any such produced seeds are grown.

So I guess it is the local farmers to blame, both for the good and the bad for their local landrace varieties. The wonderful smelling and tasting potent NLD Cannabis is the results of hundreds of years of local farmers selections and choices, and so are the intersex if they have them.

-SamS

 

[symbiote420]

Plants #1 goal in their life cycle is to produce seeds for the survival of it's kind. Seedless buds aka the sinsemilla technique is one of the if not thee biggest stressor you can cause to your plants..... I've sorta noticed that most of the strains/crosses that have "hermed" in my grows have been around or about the time they would have been getting pollinated naturally (between days 19 - 30). A plant's adaption/acclimatization is yet another, ever ran a plant from seed that hermied but when you ran it from cut nada?

What about the plants that express intersex during the veg stage? Are they just freaks of nature or is that the plant trying to tell us something? Maybe it's ready to start flower and the grower isn't ready to bloom her yet?!!

 

[KiefSweat]

late flowering herms are not an issue with causing seeds, If i have a plant that throws nuts at 11 weeks I know its only causing a problem if i have plants in a different cycle at a way earlier stage.
A herm at 4-5 weeks will seed a majority of your crop if your not careful.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I have grown a real lot of pure Original Haze from seeds, many many thousands, over four decades, I don't really see intersex in O Haze. Thai is the biggest culprit with intersex. I do prefer that type of effects, Thai & O Haze, but you do not need intersex to get it.
-SamS

You wouldn´t have Haze either.

I prefer some nanners and those effects.

For a hobby homegrower some nanners are not a issue.

May be for someone with a big grow and money oriented mentality, are a problem.

So now sativas with clean effects are a problem because they tend to hermi.And the farmers that got not a clue about breeding are to blame, even when they have never selected anything.

Keep coming... I´ll prevail.

 

[leftquark]

I don't mess with intersexual plants or people...I kill the plants,,cant kill the people....yeehaw.. I don't consider a late flowering plant that gets a few bannanas a herm really as it happens a lot more than everyone thinks..you just don't notice ....

Im sorry to say because im a new member here and this is an older threat but thats pretty nasty

 

[Tipz]

Sam, there are a lot of folks who have been around just as long as you, there's not a lot of novelty in that. Ill respond once I can go thru the posts, but thanks for the interest and comments, but on face value I have difficulty with a lot of things your saying just from skimming. I'll get to it soon. Sym... Thanks for coming around I always look forward to your say so. To be continued

 

[Tipz]

Can sound harsh yes, you can report that post to the mods if you find it offensive.[/QUOTE

Censorship of any kind is not what this is about, it's about exchanging ideas and information. Finding it offensive is merely subjective, and it's easy enough not to post. itchy fingered mods are so pedestrian.

 

[Tipz]

You wouldn´t have Haze either.

I prefer some nanners and those effects.

For a hobby homegrower some nanners are not a issue.

May be for someone with a big grow and money oriented mentality, are a problem.

So now sativas with clean effects are a problem because they tend to hermi.And the farmers that got not a clue about breeding are to blame, even when they have never selected anything.

Keep coming... I´ll prevail.

"For a hobby home grower some nanners are not a issue"

Sorry guy, that dog just won't hunt! Just take a look around u at the threads where folks are bitchin and moaning about herms. They are a significant problem, which is easy to substantiate.

Please explain, the term clean effects, it's not one I can find in botanical glossaries, nor can I understand the correlation btw sats with "clean effects" and herms. Thx tipz

 

[Tipz]

I do not think that STS for example causes intersex, it is using intersex plants to then treat with STS for a pollen source, or use as a seed parent that will give intersex progeny.
If intersex is gene based, and I assume it is as it can be inherited, then get rid of the plants that carry the gene for intersex or genes that cause intersex expression.

You have no hope to eliminate greed or stupidity, you can focus on intersex and lower the incidence.
-SamS

I agree with Fever, " a seed is what it is as far as sex from the moment of meiosis, and cannot be changed by simple environmental stress of any sort." Chemical inducement is quite the different animal. I do believe chemical inducement influences herms and hopefully I can post some research to substantiate that thinking.

I assume that "get rid of plants that carry the gene for intersex" means kill off herms, which I completely agree with.

It's obvious that greed and stupidity cannot be eliminated any more so than any 15yr old with a hundred bucks and some STS can proliferate herms, which is happening exponentially. Ever noticed how all those cookie cutter, everybody has one ogs are all looking homogenous? And u can bet your ass that the majority are carrying herm traits and are then being chem induced. Do you not see the exponentiaity in that?

As far as Thai genetics go, that's a stand alone topic in and of itself. I doubt that kaiki or dubi would agree with your assessment, but let's hear from them. There work is credible, especially with meoi Thai and is far more extensive than either u or I.

Wrong, I have more years and more plants grown experience with THAI, I have grown thousand of Thai seeds I collected my self in Thailand, over a 35 year period then these guys whom I consider my friends. I grew them all over 10 feet tall and used a GC to analyze them.
-SamS

The only person that I would defer to on this topic is zamilito, but finding him is like a needle in a haystack. Come out of hiding Zam!
Your a credit to the community Sam and I appreciate that, and I agree with a lot you say, but I think your wrong on some points too best Tipz

 

[kopite]

I agree with Fever, " a seed is what it is as far as sex from the moment of meiosis, and cannot be changed by simple environmental stress of any sort." Chemical inducement is quite the different animal. I do believe chemical inducement influences herms and hopefully I can post some research to substantiate that thinking.

I assume that "get rid of plants that carry the gene for intersex" means kill off herms, which I completely agree with.

It's obvious that greed and stupidity cannot be eliminated any more so than any 15yr old with a hundred bucks and some STS can proliferate herms, which is happening exponentially. Ever noticed how all those cookie cutter, everybody has one ogs are all looking homogenous? And u can bet your ass that the majority are carrying herm traits and are then being chem induced. Do you not see the exponentiaity in that?

As far as Thai genetics go, that's a stand alone topic in and of itself. I doubt that kaiki or dubi would agree with your assessment, but let's hear from them. There work is credible, especially with meoi Thai and is far more extensive than either u or I.
The only person that I would defer to on this topic is zamilito, but finding him is like a needle in a haystack. Come out of hiding Zam!
Your a credit to the community Sam and I appreciate that, and I agree with a lot you say, but I think your wrong on some points too best Tipz

I'd like to see the proof, and on the second highlighted piece that's not a problem because of sts, the same shit was going on when people where just finding the best plant to them in 10 or 15 seeds sprouted and hit with whatever pollen they had, a chucker is gonna chuck regardless.

 

[Tipz]

If you can´t understand this, I don´t know what are you doing here really. Go back to your High School.

If your looking to be combative or make things personal, I suggest you hit the X. Keep on topic please

 

[KiefSweat]

at 60 degrees north when does the sun set in the summer? when does the first frost come? its pretty easy if you have seeds at the end of the season at that that are viable. Weed's probably like a cat, give it half a generation and it could go feral or in a plants cause ruderal

 

[MJPassion]

Is the herm phenomenon really more prolific now than it was 20-40 tears ago?

That's completely debatable.
We didn't have the access to world wide communications back then that we do now.

Could it be possible that there is simply more people growing more seeds reporting the same basic ratios of past history?

Could it be the fact that:
Because more people are growing, more people are learning to recognize traits, therefore more reports of herms are being produced?

One last thing:
Is it a proven fact that plant sex is determined by one gene pair?
OR
Do we really even know how sex is truly determined within the species Cannabis?
Are multiple genes involved?

Let the rhetoric roll.

 

[kopite]

One last thing:
Is it a proven fact that plant sex is determined by one gene pair?
OR
Do we really even know how sex is truly determined within the species Cannabis?
Are multiple genes involved?

Let the rhetoric roll.

We know a Y chromosome makes it a male.