The History of Herms

[Sam_Skunkman]

the British report on ganja growing in India from the late 1800s or early 1900s talks about how there was a dude who's job it was to go to all the fields and cull the males, they left the herm plants to collect some seed from.

Poddars are what you are referring to from the Indian Hemp Drug Commission Report, they did kill all males and all intersex plants, they made seeds for the next year with select males and females, on special farms.

Another interesting book from the same era is:
On the Morphology, Teratology, and Diclinism of the Flowers of Cannabis
David Prain
Office of the superintendent of government printing, India, 1904

Great drawings of intersex plants of every type.

People need to understand the difference between genetic intersex and intersex expression that requires stress of some sort. They are not the same, as seen when a female is treated with STS and expresses male flowers and pollen, yet if tested for sex with MADC markers they will show as female, not male, even if flowering male when tested. They are expressing male they are female genetically.

FYI, I am not so sure that intersex plants are more common today then in the past, I have seen them for 50 years....

Don't use intersex parents to get away from intersex progeny.....
Like begets like.

You can select away from intersex with a big population and a few years of grow-outs and trialing.
-SamS

 

[genedigger]

im with you sam.my pops saw intersexed plants back in the 70s from poppin bag seed.hindu kush has been bred intersexed for hundreds of years and i can say it was one of the most stable strains ive grown.

 

[Tipz]

There is no question that Herms have been proliferating exponentially in the last few years.

 

[KiefSweat]

a long line of 1:1 matings from questionable hermaphroditic parents could be to blame on that one.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

If you believe this is true what do you believe has caused this?
I am wondering Tipz, how many seeds did you buy back in the early 70's or 80's that did not have intersex problems? Many did, from African NLD (Sativa's) to the introduction of WLD, (Indica's), not to mention all female seeds, and autos. All have been accused of increasing the % of intersex in the population, and may hold some blame, but like begets like, if you use plants with intersex genes or expression don't be surprised if the progeny are also intersex.
-SamS

There is no question that Herms have been proliferating exponentially in the last few years.

 

[Infinitesimal]

hey sam,

what about when working a line like thai, I know the more the better but what is a good minimum population size to start working the intersex out?

 

[KiefSweat]

where do you draw the line on whats intersex and whats not, are late flowering herms the issue, as to me i don't necessarily find it a problem but notice its slightly linked to higher potency with some cuts.

 

[Infinitesimal]

I prefer not dealing with them at all but I'll put up with the type of intersex that chems have (the early balls during the stretch, when grown indoors) and the type that trainwreck has (the single stamens that pop out around harvest time) in order to grow and work with the best genotype if I have to. but will always select individuals that dont express that if they are of equal quality.

 

[harry74]

not quoting you for any other reason than you're the first to make this point. i just wanted to counter that popular notion that breeding programs are only valuable if you select from thousands of individuals.

maybe if you're going for looks like a purple plant with red leaves and blue pistils. but if you're breeding for a high or a flavor or even just a smell you can single that out in a small handful of plants. if you only had 2 seeds to start from you make more seeds from those 2 plants and then search for what you're looking for in the offspring which may take you growing out 25,000 plants. but you might find it in 10 seeds and the next 24,990 were just a waste of your time since they were all pretty much in line on a small scale.

i take seriously any breeding program where you can isolate what you intended to and not just a random crossing of 2 popular names

You can breed with small populations; many in this fórum have proven that allready.
Any idea wich numbers was Rez using for his Sour Diesel IBL.?
If we have to believe Neville, he didn´t germinate that many haze seeds, the ones traded with Sam.

On top of that most growers don´t have the space/resources to grow big numbers and you can achieve uniformity trough asexual propagation.... what is the point of having a really big grow?
Can depend also of the uniformity of the seed line.

And the X factor....
if it was about breeding knowledge/ theory, everyone with a title would be pissing in our face.

I don´t think it´s the case.

 

[harry74]

Poddars are what you are referring to from the Indian Hemp Drug Commission Report, they did kill all males and all intersex plants, they made seeds for the next year with select males and females, on special farms.

Another interesting book from the same era is:
On the Morphology, Teratology, and Diclinism of the Flowers of Cannabis
David Prain
Office of the superintendent of government printing, India, 1904

Great drawings of intersex plants of every type.

People need to understand the difference between genetic intersex and intersex expression that requires stress of some sort. They are not the same, as seen when a female is treated with STS and expresses male flowers and pollen, yet if tested for sex with MADC markers they will show as female, not male, even if flowering male when tested. They are expressing male they are female genetically.

FYI, I am not so sure that intersex plants are more common today then in the past, I have seen them for 50 years....

Don't use intersex parents to get away from intersex progeny.....
Like begets like.

You can select away from intersex with a big population and a few years of grow-outs and trialing.
-SamS

I was thinking that in humans there are hormones involved into the gender ( testosterone in men as example).

Somentimes you find women with higher levels of testosterone wich gives them a more manlike appearance (hair, beard...)

¿ Are hormones involved in the cannabis gender makeup?
I know gender is not the precise Word.

 

[smokeee]

Didn't the old blueberry from dj short have hermi problems?
I think I the whole line was lost cuz of it.

 

[ghostmade]

Out of 200 plus beans ive onky had about 5 herms.most from fems beans.and one from stress.thats why im 99 percent regular bean popper.unless a freind insists i get a certain fem line.lol.
I to am seeing an influx of seeded highgrade indoor buds.

 

[harry74]

Didn't the old blueberry from dj short have hermi problems?
I think I the whole line was lost cuz of it.

I think is more related to his " great selection criteria".

Plants with deformation/mutations due to a chemical contamination, can´t be selected as P1, even when the buds coming from them can be great.

Let´s say I breed sheeps and you are a sheeper who makes cheese.
I sell you cattle and in spring, when the lambs are borne some come with mutations, not all.
1 with 2 heads, another with 6 legs and another with 2 tails.
So you come back to me worried and I tell you:

" Yes It´s true, but the best cheese is made with the milk coming from those individuals as it has a great Vanilla scent"

So the question is:

¿ Do you think someone would take me seriously as a cattle breeder?

 

[Infinitesimal]

I think is more related to his " great selection criteria".

Plants with deformation/mutations due to a chemical contamination, can´t be selected as P1, even when the buds coming from them can be great.

Let´s say I breed sheeps and you are a sheeper who makes cheese.
I sell you cattle and in spring, when the lambs are borne some come with mutations, not all.
1 with 2 heads, another with 6 legs and another with 2 tails.
So you come back to me worried and I tell you:

" Yes It´s true, but the best cheese is made with the milk coming from those individuals as it has a great Vanilla scent"

So the question is:

¿ Do you think someone would take me seriously as a cattle breeder?

no, because you breed sheep

 

[Tipz]

If you believe this is true what do you believe has caused this?
I am wondering Tipz, how many seeds did you buy back in the early 70's or 80's that did not have intersex problems? Many did, from African NLD (Sativa's) to the introduction of WLD, (Indica's), not to mention all female seeds, and autos. All have been accused of increasing the % of intersex in the population, and may hold some blame, but like begets like, if you use plants with intersex genes or expression don't be surprised if the progeny are also intersex.
-SamS

Like begets like..... I like everyone else back then used sssc, and the seed bank, senimilla tips all that. Not being on the west coast had its disadvantages, but longevity and persistence and luck never hurt.
Back about mid 70s, I didn't know squat, but after I got genetics from Neville, those were pretty much all I worked for a long period, and no I didn't have intersex issues with those genetics.
I first saw a few when I started with the predominant landrace sativas, but then it was not like u suggest prevailent. The proliferation now should be obvious to you. Every child or marketing fanboy that can muster a hundred bucks becomes a breeder or a chuck of strains that have already been bastardized, it's exponential. Then u have the glitz queens that don't give a shit about the genetics they just wanna make a buck,and they are quick to point that out. I suppose if I had to condense to one word it would be, ACCESSIBILITY.
Accessibility, greed, inexperience, and ultimately lack of respect for the plant, chasing the latest crap, Chemical inducements, surely the exponentiality is not lost on you!

 

[Tipz]

I was recently in a thread with lets just say a rascal of a guy....he readily stated that he used herms in breeding and intended on continuing because "everyone wants my seed", but he forgot to add that I want your money and I don't give a damn about contaminating your garden or the plant. So let's say he sells 50 packs today of bastardized seed, half of which goes to kids and shit goes right back in the genepool. Oh yeah, when people started jumping his ass about it, he closed the thread and whined to a over zealous mod buddy, who thinks censorship is the answer. So everyone jumps ship to the next site. Like they did about a year ago... Everyone I know despises logic, and won't support him at all, but over zealous mods, censoring is just as bad for a site. Exponentiaity.....yes

 

[sprinkl]

where do you draw the line on whats intersex and whats not, are late flowering herms the issue, as to me i don't necessarily find it a problem but notice its slightly linked to higher potency with some cuts.

Many plants in a population are intersex, other genes decide whether it expresses as a strong male/female or prone to herm or as a full-on herm. All these intersex plants can be made to herm through environmental or chemical stress and vice versa, plants that herm through use of STS are intersex.
True males and females combined yield intersex plants as well as true males/females.
True males/females cannot be reversed.
S1 plants can be more hermaprone as you inbreed the genetics that make it herm under certain conditions. But it doesn't have to if it's a strong male or female.

The genes for hermaphroditism are interesting from an evolutionary standpoint. Populations that have big numbers in small areas will select against full-on herms while populations with small numbers in large areas will have more full-on herms as more viable seed would be made than through male/female combination.

Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[KiefSweat]

I'm not sure if the true female thing and not reverse would be true, maybe have some sterility issues, but i've only seen 1 or 2 plants not produce pollen when sprayed with a silver solution, the last batch of a dozen different clones had zero issues collecting pollen from, so are all those herm clones?

with most plants evolution leads to diouciousness and cannabis may not have reached that point yet.

 

[Betterhaff]

I think I posted this somewhere before but I had a female that would throw a few bananas late in flower. She was a very potent girl and the seed was given to me by a friend that said it came from some very good stuff.

I made some outcrosses and backcrosses and a lot of the progeny were hermies of varying degrees. Some with full blown male flowers, some with just nanners, etc. All the males used in the crosses (many) were tested so I felt the trait was mostly coming from the female.

What was interesting was how the hermies showed. All across the board. Maybe the original female was just showing the trait to a lesser degree but in the offspring it became more pronounced. I finally let her go after a few years, it was a shame, she herself produced some very potent stuff. I didn’t have the space or resources to really work her.

 

[genedigger]

cannabis will never revert back to being dioecious.theres to many people breeding this plant.ive seen a few strain hunter episodes where the farmers growing cannabis were not removing their males from the fields.this is still happening all over the earth on a large scale.somne regions are growing intersexed plants hindu kush and other strains from that area are all reproduced with intersexed seed,but most cannabis grown today is done with reg seed.all these growers growing there 6 fem seeds indoors does not accurately compare to the farmer in columbia who starts thousands of plants every year from reg seeds he saved.