The Haze Hybrid Thread

[RoyalFlush]

Haze police have no jurisdiction in this venue ;-)
Looks like some very happy plants so far @Cloneman
Pedigree on that is (SSH x Williams Wonder) x Appalachia right?

Curious to hear how the flowers turn out.
Bodhi called the mother his "totem pole haze temple mother cut."

Throwing the words "Temple" and "Haze" in there suggests some exotic terps to me, so I'm looking forward to hearing your smoke report.
Were these original F1's or a later generation?

 

[Dr.Young]

Reported... Fullblown sinner

 

[Happy Times]

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Sensi's Jack Herer.

Recent seed stock? Wondering how you like her

 

[Benny106]

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Sensi's Jack Herer.

Nice pink pistils

 

[CannaT]

Recent seed stock? Wondering how you like her

Yes from 2017.

For me it is the best Haze hybrid plant you can find extremly strong.
You are high after first toke,and while you smoke it ,it have extreme incense buqet while burning.
Non smokers will complain about how pungent fumes of smoke are.

High last for hours.
With nice dreamy end.

Stil havent smoked better Haze hybrid than good JH you can find.
And it is really strong smoke.
Expirenced smokers will say that this shit is strong.
93 days harvest for best high.
And it cuts through any high you smoked before.
And nothing can get you high after smoking this first in day.

 

[Guest]

Couple of haze hybrids from current run

Couple of haze hybrids from current run

THHxNewberry

OTH x Panama

OH x THH

Doors x Hz

The 90's haze

 

[Guest]

Bandaid7 x C5/5hzC

C5 x AG13/malawi

C5xmalawi

A5S1

Utopia Haze

 

[willydread]

Afghan x pan-o-haze

Sterling haze

MNS Nevil haze

I don't want to go back to the usual discussions / controversies ... but I have many doubts about the authenticity of this line:I don't want to go back to the usual discussions / controversies ... but I have many doubts about the authenticity of this line: the plant is practically ready for harvest, the lower part needs perhaps a week, however no later than November 10, the structure of the plants / flowers and leaves is very towards the wld side, in this the ghs version is more similar to the real Nev. Haze ....
She has all the characteristics to be a great strain, resin, yield, flowering speed, but it's not true Nev. Haze, maybe it's more like a fast pheno than Nl5hz ...
We will see how it will be in the end ....

 

[Fronk]

Bandaid7 x C5/5hzC

View Image

C5 x AG13/malawi
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C5xmalawi

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A5S1

View Image

Utopia Haze

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Love how you have full control over your plants.

 

[harvestreaper]

g13 hz x thunk ,,running the gauntlet with the uk weather

nl5 x haze x thunk

 

[Hammerhead]

Pine with a hint of skunk A5hbx x Mac

 

[Raho]

I see you prefer testing it okay. I like you are empiricist. so if it looks like kush, and smells similar to haze, it is haze hybrid for you? wouldn't it be more accurate to call it kush hybrid?

Even though Haze is a hybrid of multiple Colombian lines, the seeds distributed by Sam over the years seem to consistently pass on distinctive haze traits in outcrossing. Nevil certainly found this to be true. To me, that shows a high degree of stability on the genetics. If you take a relatively homozygous line and combine it with a one-off pheno selected from polyhybrid stock, the likelihood of haze traits continuing to shine through increases.
Your example of OG Kush is a tougher one for this topic as I find it to breed very consistently for OG traits and assume it is highly inbred. In that case, the chance for Haze traits to be overshadowed increases, but that's just on paper.

One of the first OG/Haze crosses I remember seeing was Dr. Purpur's cross of OG and Mango Haze.
The haze in that cross was already outcrossed twice (skunk and NL) and yet Doc found the offspring produced by the cross to still carry distinctive Haze traits.

Maybe the best way to decide if something is a Haze hybrid or a hybrid of the other parent is to defer to the goals of the breeder.
If they seek to create a haze dom hybrid (for whatever traits they are focused on) and THEY deem a specific expression to successfully meet their goal of the project, than they should call it a haze hybrid.
If their goal was to infuse a few haze qualities into an OG dominant line and find a pheno that satisfies their goals, then they would logically call it an "OG hybrid".
As the breeder, they can call it what they think it is. Since this is the internet and the chance of you yourself getting toi test the flowers and confirm to your satisfaction that Haze dominates the other genetics, then we should have no choice but to accept the word of the person posting, no matter their qualifications to differentiate between haze and "other".
However, once they give seeds or flowers of the plant to someone else, that person can call evaluate the offspring themselves and label it as makes sense to them (OG or Haze dom hybrid.) If growing the seed, then maybe their pheno represents something different to them than the breeder's ideal expressions.

It is (and should be) entirely subjective. There is no point in arguing with someone about the qualities of smoke someone has when you will never ever get to try it yourself and confirm. Because of that, we find ourselves in the old dilemma of relying on the source of the weed/seed to be experienced enough and a good enough connoisseur to evaluate and describe these things well.
My expectations for the majority of people in our community on both of those jobs are very low.

I dont know but all these hybrids have quite different effect to me. so can you specify what does that haze effect in haze hybrid mean for you? thanks.

My first post in this tread covers that as well as I ever could.
Check it out amigo, I think you'll like it.

well line of thinking was that original haze is quite different than its hybrids. mixing apples and oranges doesn't help the knowledge. I can stand behind this statement in any thread. yeah this thread definitely helps that other thread. I dont understand why anybody would post super silver haze in original haze thread or in ultimate sativa thread... it is like pissing on people´s work of growing original haze or untamed sativas with crazy long flowering and then some dumb guy came and posted easy to grow ssh there as ultimate sativa. it is arrogance and disrespect.. this is good place for posting it.

Regarding the bolded section . . .
I would not assume to know what is in the thoughts of the people posting pics like that. I certainly would NOT immediately assume arrogance and disrespect. Such a personal and confrontational interpretation leaves no room for the MANY other reasons they may do it, and assumes the worst of those around us.

People doing that might not be smart enough to understand how their plant does not meet the definition of the thread to be appropriate, or they are so excited by their plants and the desire to share it among people they feel a connection with, that they can't help themselves. Hell, sometimes people just want to belong.

I get your perspective on it though, and will offer some of my thoughts:

Since the first small collections of afghan and Pakistani seed made it into the hands of growers around the world, the first thing they did with them when they grew them out was cross them with the long flowering sativas they had been struggling to mature away from their lands of origin. Lines like Early Pearl are rare legacies of work from that era.

Everybody did it. That is what I did in 1981/82/83. Every dream cross you can imagine, I already made it with P1 import sativas and F2 Cali indicas. All those seeds I made are gone now. I remember looking through an old journal last year and finding a list of ~50 different seeds lines I sprouted for a particular project in the 80s. I don't even remember making all those crosses, but both parents were my lines, so I guess I did.
About that same time, High times magazine wrote an article seeking to "Ban Indica" as it threatened to destroy the genetics of the magical narrow leaf lines forever and replace it with muddy, sleepy, brain dead wide leafs.

By the time indoor growing became a common thing, those old sativa lines had either become unpopular or had been hybridized to make more cultivator friendly. Most of the "sativa" lines offered from big seedhouses are already "tamed" with a wide leaf outcross or 2 somewhere back in the lineage (PCK anyone?)

When Nev started outcrossing his Haze males with skunks and indicas, his goal was to create a "Haze" line that people could actually finish indoors or outdoors above 35° latitude. A "practical haze hybrid." Obviously these outcrosses change the nature of the effects, and the combination could (and maybe should) be considered something completely different.

If you had never smoked pure oHaze or imported black market weed before ~1984, someone might be confused and think the smoke from a hybrid is the pure sativa/haze effect. Lots of people fall in that category these days I fear, but that ignorance is pervasive, and I won't tilt at the windmill to fight that overwhelming forces that drive such stupidity. Market forces always win over the accurate pedigree goals of growers/breeders.

It's nothing new. Street dealers always name their stuff to make it easier to sell, and customers don't want labels that look like algebra equations.

We all have different things that we look for in effects to "push our buttons." Some (like me) keep strains for specific purposes (strain A for daytime, strain B for nighttime, strain C for when your back hurts, strain D for gettin down wit yo lady, etc.)
There are always compromises when you take 2 things that you love and combine hoping to keep only the best of each.

I LOVE my oHaze hybrids as they are. The combination of effects in some of them are quite special, but I know they are not pure haze.

I believe your blue dream x original haze is true haze hybrid, even without testing, and not aghan hybrid with hint of haze it is killer plant!

Thanks for the compliment on the Blue Dream x oBoy brother. She really was special.

It kind of leads to your question about losing what makes "Haze" a "Haze" and then taking that beyond into the impact of hybridization, at what point does it lose that quality and become something completely different.
Again, that has to be subjective.

A smoker in the Netherlands could have bought an ounce of buds called "Haze" each week from a coffeeshop and never experienced unhybridized Haze.

Based on seed sales alone, we can assume that for the majority of growers and smokers around the world, "Haze" means a haze hybrid. Usually originating from Nevil's work.
Sam's oHaze freebies from Seedbay and SeedBoutique are legendary as being the most unsprouted seed packs in many grower's collections. It was a common joke up here. SSH, Kali Mist, Mango haze, etc. on the other hand . . . VERY popular.

I believe veteran smokers and growers like you should have the ability to recognize specific parental tastes and effects of the hybrids you make. In my case, I had made crosses with 9 different elite mothers and the oBoy male, then grew out the offspring.
That really helped me in identifying the common attributes of the male.

At the end of the day, people reading these threads make it very clear who they believe and respect with the "Like" button.
The guy you mentioned that posted pics of his SSH in the ultimate sativa thread probably got a "Like" or 2 from people being polite or a guy who's post they replied to with their pic, but compared to pics that actually belonged in the thread, it should be obvious.

If people want to know who to ignore, just look at members who get zero "likes" on their posts despite constantly posting. The public speaks in that way without ever having to get down in the mud or call out another member.


Thanks for the questions Maha.

 

[Yo Sammy]

Even though Haze is a hybrid of multiple Colombian lines, the seeds distributed by Sam over the years seem to consistently pass on distinctive haze traits in outcrossing. Nevil certainly found this to be true. To me, that shows a high degree of stability on the genetics. If you take a relatively homozygous line and combine it with a one-off pheno selected from polyhybrid stock, the likelihood of haze traits continuing to shine through increases.
Your example of OG Kush is a tougher one for this topic as I find it to breed very consistently for OG traits and assume it is highly inbred. In that case, the chance for Haze traits to be overshadowed increases, but that's just on paper.

One of the first OG/Haze crosses I remember seeing was Dr. Purpur's cross of OG and Mango Haze.
The haze in that cross was already outcrossed twice (skunk and NL) and yet Doc found the offspring produced by the cross to still carry distinctive Haze traits.

Maybe the best way to decide if something is a Haze hybrid or a hybrid of the other parent is to defer to the goals of the breeder.
If they seek to create a haze dom hybrid (for whatever traits they are focused on) and THEY deem a specific expression to successfully meet their goal of the project, than they should call it a haze hybrid.
If their goal was to infuse a few haze qualities into an OG dominant line and find a pheno that satisfies their goals, then they would logically call it an "OG hybrid".
As the breeder, they can call it what they think it is. Since this is the internet and the chance of you yourself getting toi test the flowers and confirm to your satisfaction that Haze dominates the other genetics, then we should have no choice but to accept the word of the person posting, no matter their qualifications to differentiate between haze and "other".
However, once they give seeds or flowers of the plant to someone else, that person can call evaluate the offspring themselves and label it as makes sense to them (OG or Haze dom hybrid.) If growing the seed, then maybe their pheno represents something different to them than the breeder's ideal expressions.

It is (and should be) entirely subjective. There is no point in arguing with someone about the qualities of smoke someone has when you will never ever get to try it yourself and confirm. Because of that, we find ourselves in the old dilemma of relying on the source of the weed/seed to be experienced enough and a good enough connoisseur to evaluate and describe these things well.
My expectations for the majority of people in our community on both of those jobs are very low.


My first post in this tread covers that as well as I ever could.
Check it out amigo, I think you'll like it.


Regarding the bolded section . . .
I would not assume to know what is in the thoughts of the people posting pics like that. I certainly would NOT immediately assume arrogance and disrespect. Such a personal and confrontational interpretation leaves no room for the MANY other reasons they may do it, and assumes the worst of those around us.

People doing that might not be smart enough to understand how their plant does not meet the definition of the thread to be appropriate, or they are so excited by their plants and the desire to share it among people they feel a connection with, that they can't help themselves. Hell, sometimes people just want to belong.

I get your perspective on it though, and will offer some of my thoughts:

Since the first small collections of afghan and Pakistani seed made it into the hands of growers around the world, the first thing they did with them when they grew them out was cross them with the long flowering sativas they had been struggling to mature away from their lands of origin. Lines like Early Pearl are rare legacies of work from that era.

Everybody did it. That is what I did in 1981/82/83. Every dream cross you can imagine, I already made it with P1 import sativas and F2 Cali indicas. All those seeds I made are gone now. I remember looking through an old journal last year and finding a list of ~50 different seeds lines I sprouted for a particular project in the 80s. I don't even remember making all those crosses, but both parents were my lines, so I guess I did.
About that same time, High times magazine wrote an article seeking to "Ban Indica" as it threatened to destroy the genetics of the magical narrow leaf lines forever and replace it with muddy, sleepy, brain dead wide leafs.

By the time indoor growing became a common thing, those old sativa lines had either become unpopular or had been hybridized to make more cultivator friendly. Most of the "sativa" lines offered from big seedhouses are already "tamed" with a wide leaf outcross or 2 somewhere back in the lineage (PCK anyone?)

When Nev started outcrossing his Haze males with skunks and indicas, his goal was to create a "Haze" line that people could actually finish indoors or outdoors above 35° latitude. A "practical haze hybrid." Obviously these outcrosses change the nature of the effects, and the combination could (and maybe should) be considered something completely different.

If you had never smoked pure oHaze or imported black market weed before ~1984, someone might be confused and think the smoke from a hybrid is the pure sativa/haze effect. Lots of people fall in that category these days I fear, but that ignorance is pervasive, and I won't tilt at the windmill to fight that overwhelming forces that drive such stupidity. Market forces always win over the accurate pedigree goals of growers/breeders.

It's nothing new. Street dealers always name their stuff to make it easier to sell, and customers don't want labels that look like algebra equations.

We all have different things that we look for in effects to "push our buttons." Some (like me) keep strains for specific purposes (strain A for daytime, strain B for nighttime, strain C for when your back hurts, strain D for gettin down wit yo lady, etc.)
There are always compromises when you take 2 things that you love and combine hoping to keep only the best of each.

I LOVE my oHaze hybrids as they are. The combination of effects in some of them are quite special, but I know they are not pure haze.



Thanks for the compliment on the Blue Dream x oBoy brother. She really was special.

It kind of leads to your question about losing what makes "Haze" a "Haze" and then taking that beyond into the impact of hybridization, at what point does it lose that quality and become something completely different.
Again, that has to be subjective.

A smoker in the Netherlands could have bought an ounce of buds called "Haze" each week from a coffeeshop and never experienced unhybridized Haze.

Based on seed sales alone, we can assume that for the majority of growers and smokers around the world, "Haze" means a haze hybrid. Usually originating from Nevil's work.
Sam's oHaze freebies from Seedbay and SeedBoutique are legendary as being the most unsprouted seed packs in many grower's collections. It was a common joke up here. SSH, Kali Mist, Mango haze, etc. on the other hand . . . VERY popular.

I believe veteran smokers and growers like you should have the ability to recognize specific parental tastes and effects of the hybrids you make. In my case, I had made crosses with 9 different elite mothers and the oBoy male, then grew out the offspring.
That really helped me in identifying the common attributes of the male.

At the end of the day, people reading these threads make it very clear who they believe and respect with the "Like" button.
The guy you mentioned that posted pics of his SSH in the ultimate sativa thread probably got a "Like" or 2 from people being polite or a guy who's post they replied to with their pic, but compared to pics that actually belonged in the thread, it should be obvious.

If people want to know who to ignore, just look at members who get zero "likes" on their posts despite constantly posting. The public speaks in that way without ever having to get down in the mud or call out another member.


Thanks for the questions Maha.

I love your take on things brother, you have the ability to express your knowledge holding the necessary nuances without claiming to hold the ultimate truth.
I cannot express how much I appreciate reading your post. Much respect Raho for keeping things real and open for anyone else’s opinion and reality.
Your view and attitude is what i call mature and wise.
Thank you, much love brother

 

[Donald Mallard]

ill second that sammy ,
great post raho , a pleasure to read someone who takes the time to write so well with such informed posts ....

 

[Donald Mallard]

speaking of haze hybrids ,
heres a little patch of ladies who are receiving some c5 mango pollen ,
they are packed in as yield is not what is being chased , its all for seed ,

also its the wrong time of year for some of them where i live , but they produce seed just as well , though the flowers dont fill out or mature properly ...



theres a few different ladies among them ,
fat and skinny mango haze , nevils haze , laos mango , c5 mango , double sour mango and there was some ecsd and lemon thai in there earlier also ,

 

[Raho]

I love your take on things brother, you have the ability to express your knowledge holding the necessary nuances without claiming to hold the ultimate truth.
I cannot express how much I appreciate reading your post. Much respect Raho for keeping things real and open for anyone else’s opinion and reality.
Your view and attitude is what i call mature and wise.
Thank you, much love brother

Thank you Sammy (and Don).
A post like the one above takes a lot of work, but Maha asked me directly and I wanted to show him my respect.

I arrived at the mindset about what we "know" about the plant by making the mistake of talking out of my ass a few too many times about things I didn't experience myself.

Over time, a few smart people told me it pissed them off when I did that and explained why.
I am grateful for the correction and it has impacted things throughout my life.

Sometimes, learning arrives disguised as a smack on the head

All the best to my old friends

 

[sdd420]

I just read your first post,great post. 1978 I was still in high school, did get some “speed weed” in 80 or 81. Looking back it was either nev haze or maybe nl5haze . Such a day type weed made me a little anxious but then settled into a happy feeling. Never had any again. In my opinion it was better than Thai stick or chocolate Thai which were still around. They had a different effect but a lot more sedative although strong. I’m always following this thread so I’m now growing some sativas. Thanks for sharing your knowledge sdd420

 

[Donald Mallard]

I just read your first post,great post. 1978 I was still in high school, did get some “speed weed” in 80 or 81. Looking back it was either nev haze or maybe nl5haze . Such a day type weed made me a little anxious but then settled into a happy feeling. Never had any again. In my opinion it was better than Thai stick or chocolate Thai which were still around. They had a different effect but a lot more sedative although strong. I’m always following this thread so I’m now growing some sativas. Thanks for sharing your knowledge sdd420

80 to 81 , you can be sure it wasnt nevils haze or any thing nevil had a hand in ,, because he never even met sam and acquired any haze until a few years later ,
in the early 80s there was still a lot of good sativa around ...

 

[sdd420]

80 to 81 , you can be sure it wasnt nevils haze or any thing nevil had a hand in ,, because he never even met sam and acquired any haze until a few years later ,
in the early 80s there was still a lot of good sativa around ...

Definitely sativa was mostly stem with dime size buds. Pine smell and hashy taste. Maybe straight haze ? Definitely you smoked a bowl and you were gone ...racy at first then slowed down. I tried to sober up with a shower but no go. I loved it . I kept smoking it anyway and wanted more but the guy was gone when I went back next day . Definitely 80-83 latest after that I was back to San Diego. Anyway definitely pine smell then hazy/hashy smoke? Anyway it was a haze hybrid of some kind for sure in fact it couldn’t get much better peace sdd420

 

[MAHA KALA]

80 to 81 , you can be sure it wasnt nevils haze or any thing nevil had a hand in ,, because he never even met sam and acquired any haze until a few years later ,
in the early 80s there was still a lot of good sativa around ...

hehehe it seems that Nevil´s fanboys are doing good job at confusing people. soon we will read that NL5haze was first and original hay is derived from it LOL haha.