The Haze discussion thread

[led05]

Sam, I find Fasciation very common, trifoliates common, quadfoliates less common but still quite common... 5 armed + pretty rare, I've grown plenty of plants... Plants increasing numbers or arms as they age, even that less common..... I'd love to see one of the hundreds of 6 sided plants you've grown that continued after the 10+ nodes, where their vigor also was exponential to that of the others in addition to? Lots of growers in here, many tens / hundreds of thousands of plants combined, not many six armed ones ever pictured.........? Silly me, I was here thinking it was quite rare.......

I think the first time I used STS was mid 2000's, I know you long before that but that cat has been out the bag a long time, I'd rather breed with the plant, hoping it's a firm male, but that's getting greedy.... Someday down the road I may self it, maybe...

Feels a bit odd responding to my own posts I have to admit


If it is a male you can still self it by making clones and using that Males pollen on a transformed copy of the Male that you turn Female. I hope it is Female but either way it can be selfed.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99597&highlight=males+transformed+female
-SamS

It's called Ethephon, to reverse a male... - still feels a bit odd responding to my own posts... It's my plant, I hope it's a firm male - hahaha

https://www.domyown.com/ethephon-2sl-p-16611.html

Hopefully people aren't overpaying for that diluted florel stuff - ha


.............................................

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

Welcome to the thread mate glad to see you posting telling the truth seams to be an up hill battle at times.

Thanks Hempy, you got that right; but it's worth wading through, lotta good info.

 

[Dkeppel]

Kia Ora,

A bit off topic but there is some very knowledgeable members who are posting here and id like to hear there opinions.



Can you truly preserve a landrace species without preserving it's natural environment ?


Isn't the natural environment in which landrace strains have been grown for hundreds or thousands of years, isnt this what gaves these strains there unique characteristics ?


I'm just a humble garden, Im not a genetic scientist or breeder or even a weed grower, I just grow plants and my observation over years of growing everything especially Tobacco and Super hot Chillis is plants will within a few generations adapt to there environment and some traits become recessive and others are brought forward depending on environmental factors.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

you spoke with him, okay.. but was he telling the truth?

A bit inflammatory don't you think MK? If Nevil was the Father of my Haze genetics doesn't that then make Sam the Grandfather?



It was his opinion.


Perhaps you could show a little more class..

 

[Donald Mallard]

Kia Ora,

A bit off topic but there is some very knowledgeable members who are posting here and id like to hear there opinions.



Can you truly preserve a landrace species without preserving it's natural environment ?


Isn't the natural environment in which landrace strains have been grown for hundreds or thousands of years, isnt this what gaves these strains there unique characteristics ?


I'm just a humble garden, Im not a genetic scientist or breeder or even a weed grower, I just grow plants and my observation over years of growing everything especially Tobacco and Super hot Chillis is plants will within a few generations adapt to there environment and some traits become recessive and others are brought forward depending on environmental factors.

im just a gardener also ,
but i think your correct in your thoughts ,.
once you remove something from its adapted environment and reproduce it somewhere else ,, changes begin to happen in an attempt to adapt to a new environment ,
in time you no longer have what you started with ,
this would be my thoughts also ...

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

“NL #5: Is the famous clone-only by Neville. The lineage is unknown - some people say its a Thai x Indica, than backcrossed to the Indica - but this is only pure speculation!“

Uh...Nevil didn’t create NL5...or any of the other NL lines.

From what I understand, NL5 was being grown indoors in the PNW before Nev got it and the lineage is very well known, actually.

HB.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

i try to pay attention as best i can ive also had a fair bit of experience with small genepools an inbreedng <ask my sisters kids>as weve discussed before,, this all creates my point of view/understanding ,,,i was around amsterdam before sams haze and i remember very well when neville released his gear i was no friend of neville never met him but i was like an Evangelist over his haze 5 you couldnt shut me up and i backed it up with product and cuts for a good 10 years but even back then no one wanted to grow stretchy hazehybrids that took 13 16 weeks they wanted cash croppers the quality has gone down every year since then an if you come to uk now youll smell ammo allover in every street not because its better but because it suits the buisness of growing weed so when it comes to how long the haze has been around i dont believe many if any have even tried improving it in the way i described in that timeframe not only that its not been easy to get hold of throughout that time either so that point dont prove much to me,, whilst i have respect for both sam an nevile skills they are men like me no better no worse ,,,,you right tho the proofs in pudding as always talk is cheap
ps
nice to see some of your plants

That was my cut, we were like Haze proselytes, and our sacrament backed it up.
What year was yours?



Did the Haze 5 you remember look anything like this? Finished bud of this 50% descendant reminds me of my original, unique 5hz cut, from 89 Seedbank release.

 

[@hempy]

Inbreed or reproduce a Landrace variety 10 generations and the "Landrace" will no longer have all the same genes as the original landrace, unless you use 1000 males and 1000 females from seed for each reproduction. Did you do that? You have not reproduced the whole Landrace pie, you now have just a slice. -SamS

Hi Sam well the one i inbreed10 generations was called Golden Buddha it was collected by my mate from Thailand and that was inbreed 10 generations.

The Thai Line pictured in this forum is from imported Thai sticks from 1978 it has been inbreed now 8 times.

The lines had no loss of vigor or potency the 78Thai was what i past to Nevil and turned out to be the best Thai he has smoked and Nevil did travel to Thailand early on also.


If i do have only a slicer of the pie then i got the best slice by the looks of things.

 

[@hempy]

I agree I never saw Thai sticks in Thailand with Heroin wash or Opium added it is just made up to help sell the sticks. Opium is much more expensive that Thai sticks were why would Thais want to do this? I knew many in the trade in Thailand none thought it was real, all thought it was made up, also the best Thai did not need anything added. I visited Thailand a dozen times over many years and my focus was always Cannabis or Cannabis seeds. -SamS

We saw opiumated Thai here and hash not a common thing but they did exist they were smaller than no laced Thai sticks and the taste even smell was noticeably different.

Steve Pointer, former Chief Technology Officer & Consultant
Answered Aug 18, 2019 · Author has 6.2k answers and 3.8m answer views

It was easy. Sometimes two Vietnamese would ride their scooter into our camp and sell us any drug we wanted with the officers turning their backs since many were afraid of getting fragged, which is having a grenade thrown into their living quarters. The other way was buying a carton of American cigarettes in the PX and on the way back to our camp, hold them out of the window of the truck or jeep and along came two Vietnamese on a scooter who traded us a half a carton of rolled and filtered marijuana cigarettes dipped in Opium, for a carton of US cigarettes.
As soon as I got to Nam someone threw a Marijuana cigarette onto my bunk. When there were “surprise” inspections for drugs, our Sargents or Commanding Office would inform us so we could get rid of it. It would not look good on any officer’s record if more than half of his men had marijuana on them or near their bunks.
https://www.quora.com/How-did-American-Soldiers-in-Vietnam-acquire-cannabis


I have posted some were in ICMAG an old article about Thai sticks and how some along the Mekong did dip the Thai sticks in opium wash has pictures but cant find it will try to re find it.

 

[Donald Mallard]

Maybe things were different in Nam ,
but im fairly sure in Thailand ,

if there was any opium dipped gunja ,

there wasnt enough to export commercial amounts for the whole world to claim trying it,



as sam mentioned the opium was quite expensive compared to the gunja , the add to that the poppy fields were in a different province quite a distance from where the thai sticks were grown ,
making it logistically difficult if not impossible to combine the two in any quantity ,
it would equate to someone giving something worth a lot , away for nothing , which thais are certainly not renowned for ...



it is more likely someone convinced you of something that was not in fact true ,
no offence to you or your friends , but this is the most likely scenario ...



its more likely the smaller sticks were just the best ones , no opium needed,
the effects of opium are quite different to weed also , some similarities , but some quite the opposite ,
a new comer , beginner , someone that had never had opium , would certainly notice a difference ,

add to that the burning temps and the way opium is consumed compared with cannabis , makes it even less likely ..

 

[Hammerhead]

That was my cut, we were like Haze proselytes, and our sacrament backed it up.
What year was yours?


Did the Haze 5 you remember look anything like this? Finished bud of this 50% descendant reminds me of my original, unique 5hz cut, from 89 Seedbank release.


View Image

DO you have any in flower pics?

 

[Dr. Purpur]

Maybe things were different in Nam ,
but im fairly sure in Thailand ,

if there was any opium dipped gunja ,

there wasnt enough to export commercial amounts for the whole world to claim trying it,



as sam mentioned the opium was quite expensive compared to the gunja , the add to that the poppy fields were in a different province quite a distance from where the thai sticks were grown ,
making it logistically difficult if not impossible to combine the two in any quantity ,
it would equate to someone giving something worth a lot , away for nothing , which thais are certainly not renowned for ...



it is more likely someone convinced you of something that was not in fact true ,
no offence to you or your friends , but this is the most likely scenario ...



its more likely the smaller sticks were just the best ones , no opium needed,
the effects of opium are quite different to weed also , some similarities , but some quite the opposite ,
a new comer , beginner , someone that had never had opium , would certainly notice a difference ,

add to that the burning temps and the way opium is consumed compared with cannabis , makes it even less likely ..

I think soldiers brought back a lot of the sticks. Yeah, they did taste a little different, and they had some body high the regular sticks didn't have.

 

[@hempy]

Maybe things were different in Nam ,
but im fairly sure in Thailand ,

if there was any opium dipped gunja ,

there wasnt enough to export commercial amounts for the whole world to claim trying it,



as sam mentioned the opium was quite expensive compared to the gunja , the add to that the poppy fields were in a different province quite a distance from where the thai sticks were grown ,
making it logistically difficult if not impossible to combine the two in any quantity ,
it would equate to someone giving something worth a lot , away for nothing , which thais are certainly not renowned for ...



it is more likely someone convinced you of something that was not in fact true ,
no offence to you or your friends , but this is the most likely scenario ...



its more likely the smaller sticks were just the best ones , no opium needed,
the effects of opium are quite different to weed also , some similarities , but some quite the opposite ,
a new comer , beginner , someone that had never had opium , would certainly notice a difference ,

add to that the burning temps and the way opium is consumed compared with cannabis , makes it even less likely ..

I can only go by my own experiences and we saw it smoked it and know it was real now i am not the only person with these experiences plenty of older smokers have the same story's.

Opium burns like hash and many of us heated hash and added it to mulled flower in the day i know we did.

Opium was not something we played with daily or weekly but you could score opium to smoke easily in the 70s i smoked it once.

The opium laced hash and Thai stick i did not see often but it was real.

 

[Donald Mallard]

i wont bother arguing , its not worth while against all the evidence presented to you guys , if you still want to think that , though there is no proof at all other than stories ,(and with someone telling you thais said it was just a story also)

go for your life men ,



i have a story about a man in the sky you guys might be interested in since you are believers , hehehe ..



i toked plenty of thai sticks too , i know it was just weed , really good weed , but only weed ,

the golden stuff we got off the stick was even better , it didnt need any opium on it either ...

funny how no one ever got addicted to their opium sticks hey , or overdosed etc

 

[Dkeppel]

Thank you for input Donald,

I've often wondered in regards to all these old elite cuts, if years of being kept alive in an artificle environment compounded with the fact cannabis is an annual could of contributed to some previously dominate traits becoming recessive and if this could explain why they no longer consistently put out desirable phenotypes.


In regards to NL5 I've read Nevil explaining many times that his NL5 was not the NL5 cut from the USA, his NL5 came from landrace afganhi seed and he didn't think much of the NL5 cut he got from the US from didn't use it.

 

[@hempy]

From
DJ Short

article





[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Opium Soaked Herb

An element was added to certain shipments of Thai herb in the 70's: "early water."
A by-product of the heroin trade, early water was the leftover water used to create the heroin from the raw opium.
It contained all of the constituents of opium except most of the heroin.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] The curing Thai herb was soaked in the water and redried to absorb the opiate alkaloids. The result was a high that was sought out by some, but more than most bargained for. A good wash was an enjoyable thing, but some were over-laced, which caused a dilemma for those who would start spinning after a few hits on a joint.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=136452
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

 

[Donald Mallard]

you have to read what i wrote hempy , its no good just posting stuff from folks that were never there and believe some story they were told ,



the opium , this wash you speak of was so far away from the cannabis fields they grew thai sticks cannabis in , it was not possible to combine them ,
opium was also illegal where cannabis was not ,



westerners have made up these stories for what ever reason , but they are not based on fact , i have known many that spent time in thailand back then and purchased large amounts to smuggle back home , they said there was no opium dipped or washed sticks on offer , ever ..



as i mentioned perhaps one guy had something once , or mistook strong weed for laced weed and the story just rolled from there ,



this is one of the reasons the thais try to hoodwink us ,
because we are very gullible ...



no point trying to convince me without some actual facts , like some thai sticks analyzed that resulted in identifying opium on them ,
this is something you wont find , because it didnt happen ....



you realize how addictive opiates are ,, and folks smoking it continually would have become addicted ?? but no one ever did ...



it was just strong weed that folks couldnt imagine being that strong without being laced with another drug .. they were wrong ...

 

[bsgospel]

i have a story about a man in the sky you guys might be interested in since you are believers , hehehe

...Sputnik? Telstar?

 

[Donald Mallard]

...Sputnik? Telstar?

something like that , close enough anyhow ...

 

[Nexus7]

Can we discuss Haze leaf morphology? There's been a little conjecture on some other threads. I see the pics on Todd's site have a little "belly" to them. They are also quite "sharp" in terms of serration and rife with double serrations. Should all Original Hazes have needle thin leaves from the get go? Or is it ok if they start a little wide and have some belly at the end? Should the leaves be smaller, short and thin or larger, long and thin? Should they have no more than 9 blades? Is there a bit of variation in the line or is leaf morphology determined by environment to an extent?

Also with the Nitrogen metabolism issue (leaf claw) can they all do it? Was this a trait of the original stock or only came after further inbreeding?