The Haze discussion thread

[@hempy]

i love a good mh ,
that one looks great ...

That is Queeny and the Other think the small one in the bottom of the pic was a Thai or Hazey the Male MH.

What's that one hempy? Looks nice and Hazy how'd she smoke?

MH test seed but all the Haze hybrids i have grown act and look like them 50% haze and Even NH sure you mite find a smaller framed / Haze framed plant but most look like them.Smoke was very strong.

I know you have said your Mango Haze cut is different from the current offering seed wise or is that wrong ?
Im going to try a a 6-7 plant pheno hunt with the current seed stock later this summer. Im wondering if you know of anyone who is growing the current seed stock Mango Haze.

The 3 MH plants called Queeny / Other/ hazey the male all came from MH test seed i selected.I dont know what the non test seed are like not grown them but i have read lots of reports were people loved it.I would run a search look for grow reports so on.

Very interesting Heampy, I wonder if ohz is/was a heavierly inbreed line....

I have read many posts and PMs of Nevils where he discusses the depreciation of desirable haze traits in inbred generations, do you know how much involvement Nevil had with selection of the new Holy Grail or (a5xHazeC) x HazeC strain MNS are going to be offering soonish ?

Going by what Sam has posted no he also tells people to not inbreed it but to find a great plant and then out cross it to that.

I would not know to be honest about the later.

 

[@hempy]

Hi Hempy,

Nice thread, love the way that it has blown up, been lurking in the background. Thank you for defending the truth where Nevil is concerned.

I totally agree that Nevil felt that Haze could not be inbred well, I spoke with him at length about it. Indeed, he believed that it was a fundamental, even potentially a catastrophic flaw within the Haze genetic. I am going to let everyone in on a secret, one I'm guessing you already know Hempy. I am revealing this primarily for those who are holding Grail Genetics:




One of the primary goals of the Grail project was to correct this fundamental flaw.

Welcome to the thread mate glad to see you posting telling the truth seams to be an up hill battle at times.

 

[JohnnyChicago]

There is a huge difference between pure inbred haze and F1 haze hybrids. I guess Neville was speaking of inbreeding F1 hybrids.
Inbreeding pure Haze is more comparable to inbreeding a landrace.

i would expect them to go as long as say NH having no indica in them but dose not seam to be the case.

This is a 50% haze hybrid that has had 4 weeks of veg this is what you should expect or what i would expect from an F1 seed in a 50% haze.

You are comparing a 50% x 100% Haze cross to a 100% inbred Haze.
If the pure Haze has been inbred for quickness it will be faster than Nevilles original Nl5xHazeA x HazeC.
Can be even faster than 50% F1 Haze hybrids as you can see on the pics of the hybrid you have posted above

 

[harvestreaper]

I posted about this before got hammed for it per normal but it is what it is.

I brought this up with Nevil we had long conversations about it and he saw the same thing that if a haze hybrid has even a little indica in its make up inbreeding will result in the indica becoming more Dominant and expressive more and more you inbreed it.

There is a valid reason why both Sam and Nevil have said inbreeding haze dose not improve it and the way to do it is to outcross it.

i dont doubt they have valid reasons i think that been proven but i maintain stella individuals paired up could improve the average of the line im guessing it would take a few people working together on the best they can pull out of each haze batch,,once haze or anything else is diluted by cross it will not produce the same punch in crosses ,,interesting what you say on added indica genes become dominant when inbred this suggests haze is a recessive sativa from indica dom genes itself ,,has selection for haze traits been done with such a hybrid or this just displayed just when reproduced in general ?

 

[@hempy]

There is a huge difference between pure inbred haze and F1 haze hybrids. I guess Neville was speaking of inbreeding F1 hybrids.
Inbreeding pure Haze is more comparable to inbreeding a landrace.


You are comparing a 50% x 100% Haze cross to a 100% inbred Haze.
If the pure Haze has been inbred for quickness it will be faster than Nevilles original Nl5xHazeA x HazeC.
Can be even faster than 50% F1 Haze hybrids as you can see on the pics of the hybrid you have posted above

Have you read what Sam and Nevil have said about inbreeding haze clearly not and i have inbreed pure land race / heirloom lines 1 to 10 generations from when i got it no they are not like inbreeding haze or haze hybrids.
Inbreed or reproduce a Landrace variety 10 generations and the "Landrace" will no longer have all the same genes as the original landrace, unless you use 1000 males and 1000 females from seed for each reproduction. Did you do that? You have not reproduced the whole Landrace pie, you now have just a slice. -SamS

How dose a strain that is made up of all long flowering sativa land races / heirloom lines become faster as you inbreed it Johnny ?.

 

[@hempy]

i dont doubt they have valid reasons i think that been proven but i maintain stella individuals paired up could improve the average of the line im guessing it would take a few people working together on the best they can pull out of each haze batch,,once haze or anything else is diluted by cross it will not produce the same punch in crosses ,,interesting what you say on added indica genes become dominant when inbred this suggests haze is a recessive sativa from indica dom genes itself ,,has selection for haze traits been done with such a hybrid or this just displayed just when reproduced in general ?

Sam and Nevil have both posted telling people the best way forward and not many seam to pay any attestation to what they have said but some have.

Haze has been around Holland since the mid 80s we are in 2020 now that is around 35 years that people have had accesses to Sam's Haze.

How many improvements have been made to haze in the last 35 years apart from Nevil's work in all honesty.

Why are people now going back to Nevil's F1s.


The proof is in the seed.

 

[Cvh]

ill just quote these two , but the other posts are worth mention also about the subject ,


i would add it just wouldnt be commercially viable to do this either , firstly the cost of opium , and secondly the logistics of getting it from one part of thailand to another to mix it ,
the thai sticks were not grown in the same area as the opium ,
so someone would have to transport either tonnes of sticks , or tonnes of water or opium , this is not doable ,



perhaps someone once saw or tried some opium laced weed , but its very very unlikely it was available commercially and exported in large amounts for everyone to try ,
it is as mentioned an urban myth ,
it was just strong weed , there was nothing added to it to make it so...

sure it makes for a fun western story , but its not based on any facts ...

Could it possibly be hashoil? I heard a story once that the Thai also could make hashoil (BOEL?). Or isn't that true or possible either?

I agree I never saw Thai sticks in Thailand with Heroin wash or Opium added it is just made up to help sell the sticks. Opium is much more expensive that Thai sticks were why would Thais want to do this? I knew many in the trade in Thailand none thought it was real, all thought it was made up, also the best Thai did not need anything added. I visited Thailand a dozen times over many years and my focus was always Cannabis or Cannabis seeds. -SamS

 

[MAHA KALA]

I totally agree that Nevil felt that Haze could not be inbred well, I spoke with him at length about it. Indeed, he believed that it was a fundamental, even potentially a catastrophic flaw within the Haze genetic.

you spoke with him, okay.. but was he telling the truth?

Neville has been know to bend the truth more then once, and has lied to me more then once, when it was to his advantage.

-SamS

 

[MAHA KALA]

comparng apples and oranges the whole thread

comparng apples and oranges the whole thread

How many improvements have been made to haze in the last 35 years apart from Nevil's work in all honesty.

fyi

Well, Nevilles Haze is derived from Original Haze matierials I gave Neville in 1980's, not 1969, but it is not a pure Haze, it has been crossed with the NL line.
So you are comparing apples and oranges..
-SamS

 

[harvestreaper]

Sam and Nevil have both posted telling people the best way forward and not many seam to pay any attestation to what they have said but some have.

Haze has been around Holland since the mid 80s we are in 2020 now that is around 35 years that people have had accesses to Sam's Haze.

How many improvements have been made to haze in the last 35 years apart from Nevil's work in all honesty.

Why are people now going back to Nevil's F1s.


The proof is in the seed.

i try to pay attention as best i can ive also had a fair bit of experience with small genepools an inbreedng <ask my sisters kids>as weve discussed before,, this all creates my point of view/understanding ,,,i was around amsterdam before sams haze and i remember very well when neville released his gear i was no friend of neville never met him but i was like an Evangelist over his haze 5 you couldnt shut me up and i backed it up with product and cuts for a good 10 years but even back then no one wanted to grow stretchy hazehybrids that took 13 16 weeks they wanted cash croppers the quality has gone down every year since then an if you come to uk now youll smell ammo allover in every street not because its better but because it suits the buisness of growing weed so when it comes to how long the haze has been around i dont believe many if any have even tried improving it in the way i described in that timeframe not only that its not been easy to get hold of throughout that time either so that point dont prove much to me,, whilst i have respect for both sam an nevile skills they are men like me no better no worse ,,,,you right tho the proofs in pudding as always talk is cheap
ps
nice to see some of your plants

 

[JohnnyChicago]

Have you read what Sam and Nevil have said about inbreeding haze clearly not and i have inbreed pure land race / heirloom lines 1 to 10 generations from when i got it no they are not like inbreeding haze or haze hybrids.
Inbreed or reproduce a Landrace variety 10 generations and the "Landrace" will no longer have all the same genes as the original landrace, unless you use 1000 males and 1000 females from seed for each reproduction. Did you do that? You have not reproduced the whole Landrace pie, you now have just a slice. -SamS

How dose a strain that is made up of all long flowering sativa land races / heirloom lines become faster as you inbreed it Johnny ?.

I have read the posts, grown OHaze myself, outcrossed it and even tried to inbreed it. So I am a step further than you I guess in that regards.
Do you really believe this?
OHaze is not a land race it is a slice of the Columbian landrace pie. I have grown thousands of OHaze for many years, the first in the early 70's. If you grew Haze genetics they are from me via, via. -SamS

Look at Madmac reviews on all the pure hazes he is working with. All are inbred Hazes.
When I see the pics, I don't find they are worse than the Original Hazes that have been posted on forums 10-20 years ago.
Seedsman Haze went from hay to gold in 20 years. But on the forums, not in the seeds

 

[harvestreaper]

I have read the posts, grown OHaze myself, outcrossed it and even tried to inbreed it. So I am a step further than you I guess in that regards.

Look at Madmac reviews on all the pure hazes he is working with. All are inbred Hazes.
When I see the pics, I don't find they are worse than the Original Hazes that have been posted on forums 10-20 years ago.
Seedsman Haze went from hay to gold in 20 years. But on the forums, not in the seeds View Image

for sure madmac is leading the hazeway ,,had some seedmans haze that was hay for me i did get a male i liked an used on some crosses an they were good,,ive just got some of todds haze and much as id like to find my grail first try i plan to open pollinate a pack or two to get numbers to play with

 

[led05]

From Quadfoliate to PentaFoliate to Hexafoliate now at the 10th node; a Cambodian collected in-situ.....

Anyone ever seen a six sided? IME trifoliates etc start growing out of it @10th node not increasing the numbers...

Note it’s size difference vs another seed of the same started same time, no others seeds came up and or were crushed.....

It is a Whorled Phyllotaxy not real common but I have seen hundreds 3, 4, 5, 6, and more, like Cannabis fasciation grow enough and you find them.
Some growers think it is a sign of normally Diploid (two sets of chromosomes) Cannabis that has Tetraploid (four sets of chromosomes) or Triploid (three sets of chromosomes) but this is not true, I checked with a Plant Cytology Lab several of my Cannabis with Whorled Phyllotaxy and they all had (two sets of chromosomes).
-SamS

 

[ahortator]

From Quadfoliate to PentaFoliate to Hexafoliate now at the 10th node; a Cambodian collected in-situ.....

Anyone ever seen a six sided? IME trifoliates etc start growing out of it @10th node not increasing the numbers...

Note it’s size difference vs another seed of the same started same time, no others seeds came up and or were crushed.....

Amazing! If finally it became intersexed, please don't cull it. Allow it to selfpollinate!

You could self the plant with STS and make all female seeds and see if they are expressing Whorled Phyllotaxy? Yes make and keep the mother clone alive. -SamS

I have now 2 trifoliate Bodhi's Acapulco Gold. Both began as common bifoliate plants. But they go back and forth.

 

[TheDarkStorm]

Haze as far as I i know has been ibl from the mid 70's (about 75)....wernt the posters put out to represent the finished thing...anything coming from seed made from 75 onwards should be ibl...by now considered a true breeding strain...no changes

 

[led05]

From Quadfoliate to PentaFoliate to Hexafoliate now at the 10th node; a Cambodian collected in-situ.....

Anyone ever seen a six sided? IME trifoliates etc start growing out of it @10th node not increasing the numbers...

Note it’s size difference vs another seed of the same started same time, no others seeds came up and or were crushed.....

It is a Whorled Phyllotaxy not real common but I have seen hundreds 3, 4, 5, 6, and more, like Cannabis fasciation grow enough and you find them.
Some growers think it is a sign of normally Diploid (two sets of chromosomes) Cannabis that has Tetraploid (four sets of chromosomes) or Triploid (three sets of chromosomes) but this is not true, I checked with a Plant Cytology Lab several of my Cannabis with Whorled Phyllotaxy and they all had (two sets of chromosomes).
-SamS

Sam, I find Fasciation very common, trifoliates common, quadfoliates less common but still quite common... 5 armed + pretty rare, I've grown plenty of plants... Plants increasing numbers or arms as they age, even that less common..... I'd love to see one of the hundreds of 6 sided plants you've grown that continued after the 10+ nodes, where their vigor also was exponential to that of the others in addition to? Lots of growers in here, many tens / hundreds of thousands of plants combined, not many six armed ones ever pictured.........? Silly me, I was here thinking it was quite rare.......

I think the first time I used STS was mid 2000's, I know you long before that but that cat has been out the bag a long time, I'd rather breed with the plant, hoping it's a firm male, but that's getting greedy.... Someday down the road I may self it, maybe...

Feels a bit odd responding to my own posts I have to admit


If it is a male you can still self it by making clones and using that Males pollen on a transformed copy of the Male that you turn Female. I hope it is Female but either way it can be selfed.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99597&highlight=males+transformed+female
-SamS

 

[acespicoli]

I tried a sample of Viet Black x A5 / Thai it had high energy .

But at the moment that Colombian Gold x Tom Hill Haze is as good as it gets .

Clean and clear with good vibes . Strong , only need small amounts and lasts a long time .

I believe that those crosses are superior
The nl crosses I hear about dont excite me never saw a dank nl imo
Def seen some knock down tiva's tho


__________________________________________________________

Original Haze Description

Sativa, pure (selfed)

All Sativa but is an inconsistent hybrid. 10% are spectacular, 75% good, 10% poor. Truly superior sweet taste. High incredibly clear an up energy. Will not mature outdoors in Holland or northern California.


What do we know about Northern Lights?

Nobody knows about the beginnings of this strain, Neville brought this to Holland as a clone from the U.S.A. into the late 80s and was the first one who sold Northern Light seeds and hybrids into his "The Seed Bank".

Steven Hager's description from his 'Inside Cannabis Castle' article published in High Times in March 1987:
State of the art indoor indica. Originating out of the Pacific Northwest, it is the result of many years of indoor breeding – three to four crops per year for a total of perhaps thirty to forty generations in the last ten years. The picture in Nevil's catalogue is a cutting of my personal favourite, C1 #5 F1. Unfortunately, no seeds are available of the strain, only cuttings. If anyone can come up with anything more resinous than this, I'd like to see it. Does not have much taste. The breeder bred a very specific goal in mind: high resin content. He certainly succeeded. The grass is a mellow indica that gets you pleasantly stoned – almost the opposite of Afghani #1. Although there are tastier varieties, I could smoke this one all day.

All together, there is more than only one original Northern Light line:

* NL #1: Is definitely an Afghani type indica inbred line.
* NL #2: Is a mystery, probably a mostly indica one.
* NL #5: Is the famous clone-only by Neville. The lineage is unknown - some people say its a Thai x Indica, than backcrossed to the Indica - but this is only pure speculation!

_____________________________________________



Only reason nl5 the best of what the nl line has to offer was ever added, was to aid in the finishing time

I only had it in seed form and not a clone so I guess its a open subject if anyone has a nice specimen in the 24% range id like to see it


The one that comes to mind is HL starbud not sure if thats pure or a cross it looks a little different than nl5
Some of the nl line was sweet others had the lawn grass taste (nothing thrilling) in the 90s in that for me


The g13 that was a winner to cross with not sure about how that one came about there def rumors

I would give Neville props for the g13 that plant is worthy of a haze x cross imo

 

[Donald Mallard]

Could it possibly be hashoil? I heard a story once that the Thai also could make hashoil (BOEL?). Or isn't that true or possible either?

I agree I never saw Thai sticks in Thailand with Heroin wash or Opium added it is just made up to help sell the sticks. Opium is much more expensive that Thai sticks were why would Thais want to do this? I knew many in the trade in Thailand none thought it was real, all thought it was made up, also the best Thai did not need anything added. I visited Thailand a dozen times over many years and my focus was always Cannabis or Cannabis seeds. -SamS

thanks for posting that sam ,

i was hoping you would share your experiences on this one ..

 

[Raho]

Yep, Ive found straight hay a few times running Sat's.. Its never fun when its more valuable as compost, even worse when your out of smoke.

Bad . . . worse . . .

The WORST would be to get busted for a pound of hay.

 

[Hammerhead]

Bad . . . worse . . .

The WORST would be to get busted for a pound of hay.

I keep trying to find those special plants. I'm convinced there in these Haze/Sat lines.