The Haze discussion thread

[harvestreaper]

That was my cut, we were like Haze proselytes, and our sacrament backed it up.
What year was yours?



Did the Haze 5 you remember look anything like this? Finished bud of this 50% descendant reminds me of my original, unique 5hz cut, from 89 Seedbank release.





View Image

for sure it was epic at the time a real game changer ,,that bud of yours looks denser like a cross altho them red hairs look familiar i cannot remember exact year was late 80s and a friend gifted me two haze hybrids and nl5 i recently grew out an nl5 x haze x thunk that reminded me of the old haze 5 in appearance as in the one we had,,back then i thought everyone thought like me didnt consider i wouldnt be able to get her back i did have a bunch of s1s but i sent em to a friend in tx who got paranoid one day an chopped the lot still in veg an that was that lol

the taste was floral sweet deceptively smooth t would get em everytime they smell it not getting a skunk mule kick smell would assume weakness take huge pulls and soon be scratching there watches and winding there asses gave you an instant soaring sativa rush that tookk you off into neverland then when you thought you got the measure of it the indica aspect would kick in an give you a second helping really was the best of both worlds as oposed to the typical lift an drop on your face sativa hybrid effect ,,she tasted floral and of leather an clay an left a lovely aroma in a room

 

[harvestreaper]

Inbreed or reproduce a Landrace variety 10 generations and the "Landrace" will no longer have all the same genes as the original landrace, unless you use 1000 males and 1000 females from seed for each reproduction. Did you do that? You have not reproduced the whole Landrace pie, you now have just a slice .

if that slice is the one with the gold coin in thats all most of us want or need

 

[Raho]

A bit inflammatory don't you think MK? If Nevil was the Father of my Haze genetics doesn't that then make Sam the Grandfather?

It was his opinion.

Perhaps you could show a little more class..

Are you the guy Hempy brought here as "Nevil's friend" under a new handle?

 

[Raho]

From
DJ Short
article

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Opium Soaked Herb

An element was added to certain shipments of Thai herb in the 70's: "early water."
A by-product of the heroin trade, early water was the leftover water used to create the heroin from the raw opium.
It contained all of the constituents of opium except most of the heroin.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] The curing Thai herb was soaked in the water and redried to absorb the opiate alkaloids. The result was a high that was sought out by some, but more than most bargained for. A good wash was an enjoyable thing, but some were over-laced, which caused a dilemma for those who would start spinning after a few hits on a joint.[/FONT]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=136452
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

DJ's just a man like the rest of us.

With a giant ocean and thousands of miles between him and where people grew the herb he bought from "some guy" on the street. Street dealers make up BS stories ALL THE TIME to sell the weed they get.
All DJ is doing is re-telling the stories he was told.

Common sense is stacked so obviously against the myths of opium adulterated Thai weed, that the simple absence of any first hand witness to the production of the unicorn product should be more than enough to pop the balloon forever.
How about this . . . where are the police reports for busts of opium/weed? A sentence for opium would be a big deal compared to weed.

There would also be sensational headlines in every country where it came ashore:
"New dangerous super weed "spiked" with opium to addict helpless teenagers"


It never happened Hempy.

 

[Raho]

I asked a question 3x times so far in this thread - what do you see when you inbreed haze and haze hybrids no ones answeard this yet.

I know the answers i brought this up with Nevil and had a large conversation about this topic.

I bet Sam knows the answers to this also.

Any one working with Haze / hybris of haze should know the answers.

Heres a tip the A5 looks nothing like the C5

What do you see?
This thread is filled with examples of it.
Tom Hill Haze, taken 3 or 4 generation from his original seed (which was worked about 8 generations.)
What do we see? Great plants!
Seedsman oHaze. Selective breeding taking place. Favorite phenos that Sam hasn't seen for many years popping up and used to pass along their traits in offspring. New keepers being selected from those progeny by critical, experienced, demanding breeders.

That's what it looks like.

What makes you think that Haze is still good after being worked by Sam for years (you appear to think that, by your excitement about todd running it) yet once anyone else runs it a few times away from Sam's hand, it must begin an unstoppable slide towards crap? Nonsense. Bad selections produce bad offspring. Good selections do the opposite.

I'm not going to bring up MNS gear in this context, but when Nev talked about failures inbreeding haze, but he only had 2 males to go forward with, and what he warned people about was mixing his hybrids. Hardly the same thing.

There is so much cognitive dissonance in everything you say Hempy. Constantly contradicting yourself. Insisting that rumor and opinion is evidence of anything concrete.

You buy into the idea that inbreeding haze can only degrade the line, but the simple answer to avoiding that is selection.
You must think Haze is this magic line that selection cannot be used for crop improvement.
Decline is not inevitable, but preventing it may take hard work. Work that goes on today all around us through collaboration between great growers like people on this thread.

Hempy, Haze is just cannabis, like any cannabis.
Because of this, selective breeding can work to preserve or even improve the line. It certainly can (and has) improve the % of keepers in a population.
There is no reason (given enough work by the right people) that it can't perform over many generations the same way your Thai has.

...my 78 Thai grows like a tree been inbreed need to look at notes but at lest 7 or 8 generations.

I also inbreed a different Thai 10 generations no loss in potency or vigor.

PS: you still haven't shown documentation where Rob Clark had anything to do with selecting phenos for todd.

 

[@hempy]

What do you see?
This thread is filled with examples of it.
Tom Hill Haze, taken 3 or 4 generation from his original seed (which was worked about 8 generations.)
What do we see? Great plants!
Seedsman oHaze. Selective breeding taking place. Favorite phenos that Sam hasn't seen for many years popping up and used to pass along their traits in offspring. New keepers being selected from those progeny by critical, experienced, demanding breeders.

That's what it looks like.

What makes you think that Haze is still good after being worked by Sam for years (you appear to think that, by your excitement about todd running it) yet once anyone else runs it a few times away from Sam's hand, it must begin an unstoppable slide towards crap? Nonsense. Bad selections produce bad offspring. Good selections do the opposite.

I'm not going to bring up MNS gear in this context, but when Nev talked about failures inbreeding haze, but he only had 2 males to go forward with, and what he warned people about was mixing his hybrids. Hardly the same thing.

There is so much cognitive dissonance in everything you say Hempy. Constantly contradicting yourself. Insisting that rumor and opinion is evidence of anything concrete.

You buy into the idea that inbreeding haze can only degrade the line, but the simple answer to avoiding that is selection.
You must think Haze is this magic line that selection cannot be used for crop improvement.
Decline is not inevitable, but preventing it may take hard work. Work that goes on today all around us through collaboration between great growers like people on this thread.

Hempy, Haze is just cannabis, like any cannabis.
Because of this, selective breeding can work to preserve or even improve the line. It certainly can (and has) improve the % of keepers in a population.
There is no reason (given enough work by the right people) that it can't perform over many generations the same way your Thai has.




PS: you still haven't shown documentation where Rob Clark had anything to do with selecting phenos for todd.

What i see is little substance from people that love to put other people down and think they can just point blank call people lies because they them selfs did not live a set life experience others did.

Look at this post you claim Tom hills haze is amazing special and inbreed 8 generations and yet the Haze Sam has that he gave to Todd will only improve with your friends selecting it i am assuming also lol.

Sam and Nevil are the guys that have said inbreeding haze dose not improve it i am just repeating there MESSAGE.

Haze is a hybrid its not a land race / heirloom line and what improvements has been made to haze in the last 20 years ? lets hear it.

As for Rob Clack selecting Todd Haze that was posted by Sam.

 

[@hempy]

DJ's just a man like the rest of us.

With a giant ocean and thousands of miles between him and where people grew the herb he bought from "some guy" on the street. Street dealers make up BS stories ALL THE TIME to sell the weed they get.
All DJ is doing is re-telling the stories he was told.

Common sense is stacked so obviously against the myths of opium adulterated Thai weed, that the simple absence of any first hand witness to the production of the unicorn product should be more than enough to pop the balloon forever.
How about this . . . where are the police reports for busts of opium/weed? A sentence for opium would be a big deal compared to weed.

There would also be sensational headlines in every country where it came ashore:
"New dangerous super weed "spiked" with opium to addict helpless teenagers"


It never happened Hempy.

So the Us vets stationed in Thailand as that is were the air forces bases were for the US and the other service personal in Nan all lied about getting Opium laced cannabis ?.


The 70s and 80s was a flood of opium and heroin but you would know that right .


Steve Pointer, former Chief Technology Officer & Consultant
Answered Aug 18, 2019 · Author has 6.2k answers and 3.8m answer views
It was easy. Sometimes two Vietnamese would ride their scooter into our camp and sell us any drug we wanted with the officers turning their backs since many were afraid of getting fragged, which is having a grenade thrown into their living quarters. The other way was buying a carton of American cigarettes in the PX and on the way back to our camp, hold them out of the window of the truck or jeep and along came two Vietnamese on a scooter who traded us a half a carton of rolled and filtered marijuana cigarettes dipped in Opium, for a carton of US cigarettes.
As soon as I got to Nam someone threw a Marijuana cigarette onto my bunk. When there were “surprise” inspections for drugs, our Sargents or Commanding Office would inform us so we could get rid of it. It would not look good on any officer’s record if more than half of his men had marijuana on them or near their bunks.

Weed (1972) - Vietnam.mpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=16&v=3Dh1-71PWq8&feature=emb_logo

 

[JohnnyChicago]

I have read the posts, grown OHaze myself, outcrossed it and even tried to inbreed it. So I am a step further than you I guess in that regards.
Do you really believe this?
OHaze is not a land race it is a slice of the Columbian landrace pie. I have grown thousands of OHaze for many years, the first in the early 70's. If you grew Haze genetics they are from me via, via. -SamS

Yes I do believe 100%, Hempy should grow some good Original Haze stuff
And I do feel like Alice in Wonderland only by thinking at the 1000s of Hazes you had.

Now this "Haze inbreeds not well" subject, I don't understand.
I did believe it for some time. Did always think means that would make no sense to inbreed the Haze. But I guess no sense it does not make.

Can we discuss Haze leaf morphology? There's been a little conjecture on some other threads. I see the pics on Todd's site have a little "belly" to them. They are also quite "sharp" in terms of serration and rife with double serrations. Should all Original Hazes have needle thin leaves from the get go? Or is it ok if they start a little wide and have some belly at the end? Should the leaves be smaller, short and thin or larger, long and thin? Should they have no more than 9 blades? Is there a bit of variation in the line or is leaf morphology determined by environment to an extent?

Also with the Nitrogen metabolism issue (leaf claw) can they all do it? Was this a trait of the original stock or only came after further inbreeding?

No idea what should, and what not.
This is OHaze from Sam, via Seedsman, via 1x

From Sam via Seedsman, flat stem pheno, mother of the plants above.

 

[Donald Mallard]

So the Us vets stationed in Thailand as that is were the air forces bases were for the US and the other service personal in Nan all lied about getting Opium laced cannabis ?.


The 70s and 80s was a flood of opium and heroin but you would know that right .


Steve Pointer, former Chief Technology Officer & Consultant
Answered Aug 18, 2019 · Author has 6.2k answers and 3.8m answer views
It was easy. Sometimes two Vietnamese would ride their scooter into our camp and sell us any drug we wanted with the officers turning their backs since many were afraid of getting fragged, which is having a grenade thrown into their living quarters. The other way was buying a carton of American cigarettes in the PX and on the way back to our camp, hold them out of the window of the truck or jeep and along came two Vietnamese on a scooter who traded us a half a carton of rolled and filtered marijuana cigarettes dipped in Opium, for a carton of US cigarettes.
As soon as I got to Nam someone threw a Marijuana cigarette onto my bunk. When there were “surprise” inspections for drugs, our Sargents or Commanding Office would inform us so we could get rid of it. It would not look good on any officer’s record if more than half of his men had marijuana on them or near their bunks.

Weed (1972) - Vietnam.mpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=16&v=3Dh1-71PWq8&feature=emb_logo

i hate to keep flogging a dead horse ,
but that quote is about vietnam , its not about thailand ,
and it doesnt say anything about thai sticks being infused with opium or anything like that ,
no offence man ,

but your missing a bunch of dots if we were to try and join them ,


the us vets were mostly in udonthani,
which is close to the laos border in the far north east,

they would have smoked thai there ,
thats how the thais knew westerners were keen on their produce,


i spent some time in the museums when i was there last time and read the history on the american soldiers ,, 10 000 were stationed there , they helped the economy a lot by injecting at least 50% of their pay into it ,

and i bet some of that went on both weed and girls .... there was an airbase there also ..



as far as i know they didnt grow opium in udon , that was another part of the country ,
hence the difficulty in combining the substances together for commercial sale ...

they may have in vietnam ,, but they didnt have thai sticks there as far as i know,
your article says marijuana cigarettes , not thai sticks ,,



i best make that my last reply cause i dont need to prove anything that i already know ..

 

[Cvh]

I have just created a thread dedicated to Opiumnated Thai Sticks being just a myth or real.

Opiumnated Thai Sticks: Myth or Truth?
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=373835

Would you guys be so kind to post your info, opinion, experience into it?

Thanks.

 

[star crash]

Just in case anybody is curious this is how the male is currently looking structure is similar to his sister but the leaves are noticeably wider..the branching is not as dramatic either

 

[led05]

im just a gardener also ,
but i think your correct in your thoughts ,.
once you remove something from its adapted environment and reproduce it somewhere else ,, changes begin to happen in an attempt to adapt to a new environment ,
in time you no longer have what you started with ,
this would be my thoughts also ...

and that time is much quicker than most give due credit, like immediately it begins...... How them Chilies doing bro? You work up the courage to try them yet, what about the crinkly ones, the reapers? If you grow them, you gotta eat them you know !!

 

[hellfire]

Where is the academic data on this 1000 males and 1000 females thing? I see people reposting this SamS quote often - and treating it as absolute fact and sure it might be but more than one source would be nice. Is there a paper on this?

Edit: I found some sources, a few links didn't work.

When we began, we realized that two key requirements must be fulfilled before an accession could be considered adequately reproduced. The primary goal of a germplasm preservation project is the conservation of the entire gene pool of each accession. It is very important that the population size of each individual reproduction is large enough to ensure that nearly all of the genes within each accession’s gene pool are reproduced in the resultant seed. We attempted to set a minimum limit of 1000 plants in each population. This should ensure 99% preservation of the gene pool.

The second goal was to reproduce the accession in sufficient amounts to distribute seed to researchers worldwide. Initially, we set the minimum amount of seed produced at 200 g per accession. Since the installation of long-term storage facilities in St. Petersburg, this threshold has been lowered to 120 g, which still allows for sufficient seed for long-term storage of each accession. Although our success rate for reproductions increased steadily from 71% to 81%, the percentage of reproductions for distribution fluctuated between 45% and 64%.The greatest hindrance in producing enough seed for distribution has been the size of the reproductions. Due to limitations in the size of growing space, and the amount of viable seed, it was often not possible to grow 1000 individuals or 120 g of seed. Very few of the accessions have been lost, but several have very few seeds, and now must be multiplied from a possibly more limited genetic base. Seeds produced by the VIR/IHA Cannabis Germplasm Preservation Project are made available to Cannabis breeders worldwide

https://www.druglibrary.net/olsen/HEMP/IHA/jiha5207.html

Minimum 1000 plants...not 1000 each male and female. Curious as to why Sam says this. I wonder how many hops plants must be used to maintain the variety's full germplasm. 1000 is quite a lot compared to our common vegetable varieties that maybe take 50 or 100, though vegetables to cannabis is not a fair comparison.

 

[acespicoli]

Wonder how accurate this info is:Haze »»» Mexico x Colombia x Thailand x India


Haze Brothers ->

Sam the Skunkman (Cultivators Choice) ->

Wernard (Positronics);

Neville (The Seed Bank);

Eddie Reedeker (Flying Dutchmen)


My point is its amazing what sells for haze these days,

it may have none of the o haze in it


W = #19 TH selection

 

[star crash]

Those look quite amazing thank you for posting the pics

 

[acespicoli]

TSB SSH[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]- crossed to the nl ( I admit this is to a great effect ) ssh cat piss pheno due to stacking haze has kept some killer traits[/FONT]
Super Silver Haze»»» {(Haze x Haze) x Skunk #1} x {(Haze x Haze) x NL #5}

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]



TFD OH

 

[acespicoli]

Those look quite amazing thank you for posting the pics

Unfortunately these are not my pics just borrowed my lat pure never finished
Indoor was too sketchy to save plant photos they used them to add it up


The memories are fresh and im glad some people did save pics to reflect on
Welcome for the uploads tho

 

[star crash]

TSB SSH[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]- crossed to the nl ( I admit this is to a great effect ) ssh cat piss pheno due to stacking haze has kept some killer traits[/FONT]
Super Silver Haze»»» {(Haze x Haze) x Skunk #1} x {(Haze x Haze) x NL #5}

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=70564&pictureid=2041566&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]


TFD OH
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=70564&pictureid=2041558&thumb=1]View Image[/URL] [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=70564&pictureid=2041557&thumb=1]View Image[/URL] [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=70564&pictureid=2041556&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]

Apologies in advance if you’ve already seen these it was my 2003 super silver haze keeper

 

[acespicoli]

Speechless for a moment of awe .




thats is a fine balance and example of breeding for the desired attributes

spears and DD of old I miss rare to see 3 foot 1 meter sticks
Yeah thats a great example of old school genes
SSH

Now the nose and effect ?
Is that the dankity dank dank ones I had of SSH were huge great bag appeal sticky and stinky a little musky sweet smell it in your pocket wrapped

makes you want to smell it for hours

With a indica start maybe a little sleepy to the buzz then munchies smooth good sailing feeling for 2-3 hours no paranoia at all

would say not really trippy IMO


How did your keeper translate

 

[willydread]

View Image[/URL]

Amazing!