The Haze discussion thread

[ojd]

Should I contact people online and ask them to dig up everything you have done in your life good and bad, and find people who know you since you were a kid until today ?
No because that's not cool.
I'm sure I could find plenty of dirt on you by offering 1000's of seeds to anyone with any dirt on Elmer ?.
There must be plentyof dirt on you because only someone who cant let a dead man sleep would be this disrespectful must have alot of dirt from your earlier days ?

This guy is integral to The Seed Bank and Nevil .

Mr Cogo here is the guy who facilitated Green Merchant .
He was Nevil`s USA seed distributor . He got busted with a crop and not only snitched Nevil , but also gave the names and addresses of the people who bought seeds from Nevil .
https://cogosoriginalplantfood.com/about/
OUR STORY
Ray Cogo traveled to the Netherlands in 1986-1989 where he collected herb and flower formulations from professional cultivators, then he returned to the USA. The new product that was created used fine ground calcium and magnesium that keeps the fertilizer in Ionic form even in cold water. The finished product was brought back to the Netherlands where it was extensively tested by professional cultivators.

Gourmet Gardens Fertilizer LLC is a American company that specializes in liquid plant food concentrates and has been featured in GM Pro Greenhouse magazine as Innovator of the Year, in Growing Edge Magazine as well as many other newspapers and magazines.

An affidavit from a man claiming to have acted as Schoenmakers' US distributor told the US District Court of Louisiana that on a trip to Holland he had seen a duffel bag full of envelopes containing hundreds of dollars in cash and orders for marijuana seeds.

"Schoenmakers would cause the seeds to be shipped to me in bulk, wrapped in packets and labelled according to to the quantity and type of seeds involved, which packets were shipped in sealed soup cans that were packaged in a box full with food items. The soup cans contained lead inserts … and would weigh what the label on the soup can said the can should weigh," Raymond Anthony Cogo told the court.

 

[Elmer Bud]

Why are people that grow Nevil's work continuing to attack him in this thread when we are discussing haze or even breeding.The shots just fly out of the blue so clearly there has to be motivation /agenda at play.

I found something interesting today all of the US prosecution court papers For Nevil case in the US state of Louisiana.

Anything that doesn`t kiss arse is an attack in your world

I may drive a ford because it is a good vehicle .
Doesn`t mean I have to worship Henry Ford .

 

[ojd]

Why do you grow Neville Genetics ? If you despise and so jealous of him.

Your a joke you and your friends who all grow Neville Genetics and bad mouth him every post.

Go throw all his Genetics away and grow something else if you despise him so much , it's a joke you and your Neville haters club

Anything that doesn`t kiss arse is an attack in your world

I may drive a ford because it is a good vehicle .
Doesn`t mean I have to worship Henry Ford .

 

[Yo Sammy]

This guy is integral to The Seed Bank and Nevil .

Mr Cogo here is the guy who facilitated Green Merchant .
He was Nevil`s USA seed distributor . He got busted with a crop and not only snitched Nevil , but also gave the names and addresses of the people who bought seeds from Nevil .
https://cogosoriginalplantfood.com/about/
OUR STORY
Ray Cogo traveled to the Netherlands in 1986-1989 where he collected herb and flower formulations from professional cultivators, then he returned to the USA. The new product that was created used fine ground calcium and magnesium that keeps the fertilizer in Ionic form even in cold water. The finished product was brought back to the Netherlands where it was extensively tested by professional cultivators.

Gourmet Gardens Fertilizer LLC is a American company that specializes in liquid plant food concentrates and has been featured in GM Pro Greenhouse magazine as Innovator of the Year, in Growing Edge Magazine as well as many other newspapers and magazines.

An affidavit from a man claiming to have acted as Schoenmakers' US distributor told the US District Court of Louisiana that on a trip to Holland he had seen a duffel bag full of envelopes containing hundreds of dollars in cash and orders for marijuana seeds.

"Schoenmakers would cause the seeds to be shipped to me in bulk, wrapped in packets and labelled according to to the quantity and type of seeds involved, which packets were shipped in sealed soup cans that were packaged in a box full with food items. The soup cans contained lead inserts … and would weigh what the label on the soup can said the can should weigh," Raymond Anthony Cogo told the court.

Snitches get stitches

 

[acespicoli]

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im never going to read 300+ pages best to just close the thread
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[TakenByTheSky]

Go throw all his Genetics away and grow something else if you despise him so much , it's a joke you and your Neville haters club

Anyone that doesn't want mns/nev genetics can forward them to me I'll take them off your hands.

 

[TakenByTheSky]

A5haze s1
Had this same pheno on the 97 NH

View Image

I don't see what all the fuss is about with A5, no offense but a pheno that looks like that would never make it to harvest in my garden.

 

[hellfire]

Wasn't there another character or two tied up in the Cogo mess? Joe P.?

 

[Raho]

What point you are trying to make or raise here Raho how about you post that and leave the negativity and personal attacks out of it.

Are you saying selfing dose not cause cannabis inbreeding depression that results in a reduced biological fitness in the s1 s2 and so on ?. if so then can you explain why s1 plants show a huge reduction in yield and vigor.

You provide no evidence for this claim, but expect me to agree with it and consequently defend against your further claims based on your erroneous assumption.
Yes, I am saying that selfing does not cause cannabis inbreeding depression.
Breeding is breeding.
Poor selections can lead to reduced "vigor" in offspring through inadvertently selecting for traits like weaker root systems, shorter/slower growth, less ideal branching, less resistance to powdery mildew, bud rot, stress induced flowering, etc.
These types of traits can typically lumped into a category of "vigor" or what you describe as "biological fitness" (a nice phrase . . . where did you get it?) A generation or 2 of bad selection decisions (M/F or FEMed) can lead to a line that no longer reflects many of the traits that were desirable in the original ideal parent stock.

At the same time, if a breeder starts with an select F1 hybrid pheno that is a standout for ideal traits, an S1 of that plant will likely produce highly variable offspring.
The opposite of what someone might expect since they were practicing "inbreeding."
This is because an S1 is similar to an F2 in normal breeding as it provides the opportunity for previously masked recessive traits to be expressed.
Given a highly diverse group of plants to select from in that cycle, a great breeder could potentially select stock that could surpass either of the parents that contributed to the F1 or the F1 itself in specific traits. That includes traits that some might lump into the category of "biological fitness." It's simply a numbers game and selection.

Can you also tell us why you think plants that are selfed to s2 s3 and s4 are not suffering from reduced biological fitness when they clearly are ?.

See my response above.

The difference with male and female inbreeding / matting to selfing is huge firstly you dont see a loss of yield were you do in a S1.

This "Hempy scenario" is a typically massive oversimplification of a single outcome where almost infinite outcomes are possible. S1's behave like F2's. They simply do not produce homogeneous populations of offspring that strangely combine all negative genetic traits contained in the selfed plant's DNA. That is basically what you are saying happens Hempy. It doesn't work like that.

The F1 magic comes from outbreeding enhancement. Sam said you see that also from a unrelated selfed female to a unrelated female.

What is the mechanism for "enhancing" the DNA of a plant Hempy? Is that something you got from your research? Seems like something that would be getting a LOT of attention in our community if it existed.
In practice, F1 hybrids appear to be particularly "vigorous" because the phenos they produce are comprised almost entirely of dominant traits. I have said this before but you clearly didn't pick up on it. I will ask Sam here to say the same thing to you so maybe it will sink in.

I have inbreed a Thai line 10 generations i never saw a loss of yield or loss in potency or saw a reduced biological fitness.

I can't remember the whole origin story of your 78 Thai line Hempy, but I believe it had already been inbred a couple of generations by your Uncle before you got it right?
Those initial selections are particularly important when working with original imported commercial drug strains. If he had screwed those up, it's quite possible the line would have been fated to see a slow decline in quality year after year until you finally abandoned her.
We should all be thankful for whoever did those first selections and made it possible for you to keep a special line going all these years.
This example has nothing to do with selfing though of course, or your claims about it.

Saying that i am open to the theory that there may of had changes i could not see or detect.
I do feel that a male plays a key roll in this and this is why.

Males can act to remove the mutation load on population viability, thereby offering a benefit to sexual reproduction.Sexual reproduction can increase population viability relative to asexual reproduction by allowing sexual selection in males to remove deleterious mutations from the population without large demographic costs.

The Y chromosome is passed on without recombination, the DNA on that chromosome provides a genetic history of a males paternal ancestral line.

You have not done anything to suggest that you are open to a theory other than those you have collected in your mind over the years and defend vigorously like treasured possessions in an old shopping cart.

Your bolded quote above is something you pulled from the "seed beetle" reproduction research paper. I am not going to read the whole thing to find out if people somewhere are doing selective breeding with seed beetles or what their findings were.

Sam and Nevil have both stated multiple times that they have never conclusively found a sex-linked trait in cannabis. It usually comes up when people ask about the benefit of using males vs females to try and lock in specific traits. "Males for structure" Females for effects" Females for flower time" Males for terps" etc. To me, theories about that (embraced and advocated by many over the years) are clearly correlation and not causation.

That's your point right? That male plants bring special properties to offspring produced with them, and that offspring produced with pollen from a reversed female will somehow suffer from the absence of this special sauce? Well Nev and Sam disagree with you, so take it up with them.

You then seem to be saying that what "true" males bring to the equation is the ability to fight "mutations". I thought we were fighting depression here, not mutations Dr. Xavier.
Do you have evidence of a bunch of mutations in cannabis brought about by the absence of the Y chromosome? I have always had the impression that true mutations were pretty rare in cannabis. Please share details of all these "mutations" that plague people growing S1s.

Regarding the Y chromosome repository of genetic history . . .
I am sure that Phylos Bioscience and others would be extremely interested to speak with you about how they can use Y chromosome data to track back the entire genetic history of a strain from samples provided to them. Right now they can't seem to reliably link strains to their immediate relatives in other donated samples, so this could be the epiphany they are looking for.

I am tired of this discussing this topic with you Hempy. Either you are incapable of understanding these things or you are protected by a shield that prevents new ideas from reaching you.
Either way, logic bounces off of you and I don't have the time or patience to keep doing the same thing hoping for different results.
If you don't like my replies to your questions, you can simply stop asking me questions. Especially the ones where you expect me to validate your ideas.

 

[djonkoman]

Males can act to remove the mutation load on population viability, thereby offering a benefit to sexual reproduction.Sexual reproduction can increase population viability relative to asexual reproduction by allowing sexual selection in males to remove deleterious mutations from the population without large demographic costs.

The Y chromosome is passed on without recombination, the DNA on that chromosome provides a genetic history of a males paternal ancestral line.

I think this quote is valid, but you need to interpret it right.

in a situation where you want to maximise the amount of offspring, and the amount of offspring is limited by females, the best way to be able to do selection without reducing the amount of offspring is to select on the males.

let's say you breed goats for meat, you get 3-4 young goats per year from each female. but 1 male goat can impregnate all your females. then by selecting one(or a few) good male you can improve your goats over the years without losing any income by having less young goats to sell for meat.

and from the point of view of a wild species under natural selection, sexual reproduction does indeed have a benefit over asexual by making new combinations of genes. for an asexual species the only way to get new variants with possibly increased fitness is through mutations.

but there are plants which naturally mostly(or even only) self-pollinate, if a mutation pops up there, and that mutation is negative(and recessive, since such a mutation would most likely be loss-of-function, which is often negative), there will always be a negative selection on it, since through selfing it will always end up homozygous in part of the offspring. in an outcrossing species like cannabis or humans such a recessive negative alele could keep lingering in the background, since as long as it's heterozygous there's no selection pressure against it. then if you start selfing those negative recessive alleles come out>inbreeding depression. but if you would select against those negative recessive alleles, you could theoretically use selfing to filter them out and create an inbreeding-resistant line(although practically, I think it would be a though job).

they actually ran into this problem in maize breeding too when they stated going for F1 hybrids. the IBL's to use as parents ended up so inbred that they were not very fertile, so they produced so little seed it was not economically viale to make and sell F1-seed. so instead they did tri-hybrids, where first 2 IBL's were crossed to create a more fertile mother, which was then pollinated by a 3rd IBL to make the seed for sale.

 

[RoyalFlush]

I don't see what all the fuss is about with A5, no offense but a pheno that looks like that would never make it to harvest in my garden.

How are you going to ask people to give you their "Nevil's genetics", then trash A5haze on the next post

Wait for the finished product before you throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[Raho]

Great post brother. Seems completely logical.
I'll throw in some comments to make sure I am reading you right, but it seems to me that you are saying that Hempy has misunderstood the study he has been quoting from.

I think this quote is valid, but you need to interpret it right.

in a situation where you want to maximise the amount of offspring, and the amount of offspring is limited by females, the best way to be able to do selection without reducing the amount of offspring is to select on the males.

So . . . improvement of a line is through SELECTION of superior male(s) to breed with, not just the act of using natural males itself. Right?

let's say you breed goats for meat, you get 3-4 young goats per year from each female. but 1 male goat can impregnate all your females. then by selecting one(or a few) good male you can improve your goats over the years without losing any income by having less young goats to sell for meat.

Gotcha. Resources are limited with livestock and projects that seek to maintain, improve or avoid regressions in the quality of their stock can do it most efficiently by selecting superior males. 1 male impregnates many females.

What would be described sometimes as a "prize breeding stud" in animal breeding. The good genetics passed on using the selected stud avoids problems that might exist in the DNA of lesser males. Thus, improved offspring/less mutations.
It is simply talking about selection.
The focus on not reducing the # of offspring produced being an issue with animals (and presumably beetles) but is not an issue with cannabis as a single female plant can make many thousands of seeds. We can select the best male AND the best female, both.

That makes complete sense, and also demystifies Hempy's interpretation of the paper which suggested that any and all natural males were superior as pollen producers to any reversed females simply because they have a Y chromosome and that the Y chromosome contained mutation killing magic.
The magic in the study is simply selection.

and from the point of view of a wild species under natural selection, sexual reproduction does indeed have a benefit over asexual by making new combinations of genes. for an asexual species the only way to get new variants with possibly increased fitness is through mutations.

but there are plants which naturally mostly(or even only) self-pollinate, if a mutation pops up there, and that mutation is negative(and recessive, since such a mutation would most likely be loss-of-function, which is often negative), there will always be a negative selection on it, since through selfing it will always end up homozygous in part of the offspring. in an outcrossing species like cannabis or humans such a recessive negative alele could keep lingering in the background, since as long as it's heterozygous there's no selection pressure against it. then if you start selfing those negative recessive alleles come out>inbreeding depression. but if you would select against those negative recessive alleles, you could theoretically use selfing to filter them out and create an inbreeding-resistant line(although practically, I think it would be a though job).

Yes. In a self pollinating line (or asexually reproducing species). Assuming the parent that produced the seed was heterozygous for the trait and a classic Mendellian 25% | 50% | 25% breakout in the offspring.
Once a recessive trait is expressed in an offspring pheno, seeds from that pheno will always express that trait as it is homozygous.

Offspring that do not express the trait will only be 33% true breeding so it is more difficult for a breeder to lock in the dominant trait than the recessive.

they actually ran into this problem in maize breeding too when they stated going for F1 hybrids. the IBL's to use as parents ended up so inbred that they were not very fertile, so they produced so little seed it was not economically viale to make and sell F1-seed. so instead they did tri-hybrids, where first 2 IBL's were crossed to create a more fertile mother, which was then pollinated by a 3rd IBL to make the seed for sale.

We have seen some commercial cannabis seed breeders use similar techniques, including Tom Hill with his Haze line.
I don't think he ever reached the point where the main line had problems like what you described, but his going back and breeding in stock from previous milestones was clearly an effort to avoid something like that.

Thank you for jumping into the fray on this djonkoman

 

[TakenByTheSky]

How are you going to ask people to give you their "Nevil's genetics", then trash A5haze on the next post

Wait for the finished product before you throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I'm not trashing entire lines of his work that plant just doesn't look that good, it's all leaf and hair.

I wouldn't even classify that as nevils work, that's karma's work. If I recall correctly his A5 is actually A5 x the white which is essentially its own hybrid and has no real connection to Nevil. I don't thisnk that is anything Nevil would have ever released on his own ever.

Nevil/mns genetics are a pheno hunt as it is with 7 out of 10 seeds from most strains being just ok it's that 1 out 100 pheno you might find that is the best you'll ever have.

 

[bigtacofarmer]

I'm not trashing entire lines of his work that plant just doesn't look that good, it's all leaf and hair.

I wouldn't even classify that as nevils work, that's karma's work. If I recall correctly his A5 is actually A5 x the white which is essentially its own hybrid and has no real connection to Nevil. I don't thisnk that is anything Nevil would have ever released on his own ever.

Nevil/mns genetics are a pheno hunt as it is with 7 out of 10 seeds from most strains being just ok it's that 1 out 100 pheno you might find that is the best you'll ever have.

Few years ago Karma released a5 x the white, and some bx's. Then Ace released a few feminised hybrid. This as far as I know is the first time anyone has released s1's of a5. Which I believe a5 is supposed to be a pheno selected by nevil or from his work.

 

[RoyalFlush]

I'm not trashing entire lines of his work that plant just doesn't look that good, it's all leaf and hair.

I wouldn't even classify that as nevils work, that's karma's work. If I recall correctly his A5 is actually A5 x the white which is essentially its own hybrid and has no real connection to Nevil. I don't thisnk that is anything Nevil would have ever released on his own ever.

Nevil/mns genetics are a pheno hunt as it is with 7 out of 10 seeds from most strains being just ok it's that 1 out 100 pheno you might find that is the best you'll ever have.

This is NL#5 x HazeA pure aka S1.
Why judge the whole line based on one pheno?

This is A5Haze pheno #6

 

[zif]

I am saying that selfing does not cause cannabis inbreeding depression.
Breeding is breeding.

Raho, what evidence do you have?

The theory and data from other plant breeding argues the opposite. I also suspect it’s unlikely that Sam completely ignored vigor in his single-cannabinoid selfing work. Instead, most plant breeders agree that outcrossers generally suffer from severe inbreeding depression, especially when repeatedly selfed.

Corn, where folks have the luxury of running as many plants as they like, still suffers tremendous losses in yield, vigor, and fertility in single-digit selfed generations. It was so daunting that breeders spent half of the golden age of corn improvement making F1s from weak inbred lines just so they could cross those F1s to get enough seed for market. Elite inbred lines did ultimately emerge, but they were so few that single cross hybrids almost all derive from a very few starting lines.

The standard argument is that harmful recessive genes are unmasked by inbreeding, since it fixes 50% of heterozygous loci per generation. Even with intense pressure for a few traits of interest, far, far more traits will fall into a random fixed state. Half of those loci will be recessive. The breeder is largely powerless to affect this progression.

Vigor is generally thought not to be a trait, per se. That is, it cannot be selected for, because it’s not the result of one or a few heritable gene states, but rather the interactive effect of large numbers of heterozygous loci throughout the genome.

Totally homozygous lines are surely possible (e.g., doubled haploids), and *might* allow one to make F1s less prone to totally fizzling under extensive selfing. This would be true because any totally homozygous plant that can live and set seed, by definition does not carry any lethal or fertility-destroying recessive gene pairs. But this would be a highly artificial state, and one that relies on the fact that the tissue culture methods employed are basically unaffected by the thousands (and thousands?) of gametes that do carry lethal recessives - since only healthy gametes would grow at all.

Outside of such unusual situations, the standard prediction is that intense inbreeding is harmful. Have you actually observed otherwise?

 

[Elmer Bud]

Snitches get stitches
View Image

Seems he is enjoying life bragging about how he went to the Netherlands and got the nute recipe . That he now sells .

He caused thousands of people to get busted . I don`t see any scars ?

 

[harvestreaper]

Vigor is generally thought not to be a trait, per se. That is, it cannot be selected for, because it’s not the result of one or a few heritable gene states, but rather the interactive effect of large numbers of heterozygous loci throughout the genome.

what is generally thought ?? ,,,,this does not ring true with any observations ive seen with closed genepools,, i think it very much can be and is selected for and in nature its happening all the time the theory of filial degeneration relates a strain will revert to its average therefore the average has to be kept extremely high this is exactly how nature shows us by selecting only vigorous lifeforms for any/all applications,,, its man who does not always follow those rules of selection and encounters inevitable problems , the vigor is either showing dominant in the individual or it aint no matter how many genes are involved in producing it ,,,so it seems to me its selected for by some breeders and also in nature were we took the plants and animals from

 

[Hammerhead]

I'm not trashing entire lines of his work that plant just doesn't look that good, it's all leaf and hair.

I wouldn't even classify that as nevils work, that's karma's work. If I recall correctly his A5 is actually A5 x the white which is essentially its own hybrid and has no real connection to Nevil. I don't thisnk that is anything Nevil would have ever released on his own ever.

Nevil/mns genetics are a pheno hunt as it is with 7 out of 10 seeds from most strains being just ok it's that 1 out 100 pheno you might find that is the best you'll ever have.

That's not correct.. He couldn't make that cross without A5. No one gave him A5 x TW. This is his work. He then made A5Hbx which is A5h x (A5HX TW ) He couldn't have made these with out the A5 as well. Karma holds A5H.. He then made A5H S1 which many of us have.

I do agree it takes allot more hunting through haze to find the gems. These are truly exceptional smoke. Having said that yes you will find allot of hay while you search. Its def worth it to go looking.



Inbreeding can def cause bad plants.. I don't think anyone disputes that... The more you inbreeding you do the less likely you will find good selections to breed with. If you make good selections along the way, the less likely inbreeding depression stops the process.. IMO I don't think you will see issues until after S4 that's just a guess. IMO Its def possible to get to +s6 before you had to stop because there are no good selections to pick from..

 

[@hempy]

I can't remember the whole origin story of your 78 Thai line Hempy, but I believe it had already been inbred a couple of generations by your Uncle before you got it right?
Those initial selections are particularly important when working with original imported commercial drug strains. If he had screwed those up, it's quite possible the line would have been fated to see a slow decline in quality year after year until you finally abandoned her.
We should all be thankful for whoever did those first selections and made it possible for you to keep a special line going all these years.
This example has nothing to do with selfing though of course, or your claims about it.

My uncle had nothing to do with the Thai i grew and i grew many different lines of Thais.

The 78 Thai was inbreed 7 generations i think before i got it and i inbreed it 2x since then.

The Thai line i personally breed and inbreed it 10 generations was a Thai line a close friend collected from Thailand called Golden Buddha.That like the 78Thai still had explosive growth / vigor and still dose.