The Haze discussion thread

[Elmer Bud]

Sam sold mostly IBLs . I made lots of great F1 hybrids in Holland sold through Cultivators Choice. Many more seeds than Nevil made, I sold millions a year. -SamS
Sold them for 10 cents a seed he says .

Nevil bought them , crossed them and made F1s . And sold them for 1000 times what Sam sold him the IBLs for .
$100 in 1989 is equal to $200 dollars today .

Also understood that if people wanted the same results year on year they needed to buy more of his F1s .

Or just make clones from their best F1's, Nevil's or mine, my goal was different than Nevil's, to be honest his primary goal was $, mine was to spread great genetics to the world and still make a decent living. I also took little to no risk as I only sold seeds where legal, Nevil did otherwise and paid the price. Risk and Return are often closely related. -SamS

 

[Donald Mallard]

Why don't you enlighten us Donald and YOU tell us why Selfing causes loss of yield loss of vigor its ability to deal with environmental changes and its ability to deal with pets and the onset of sterility.

well im sure you read what raho eloquently said ,
i couldnt say it near as good to be honest ,
i admire how well the guy writes ,
and he says it all in layman's terms so it can easily be understood by most folks
however not you hempy for some weird reason ..



its all about selection as it is with any breeding with cannabis plants , its all about selection ,, selection , selection ....

you can avoid all the issues you claim inbreeding causes , just by selecting good plants to reverse and self ,
and yes as eb and sam both pointed out , you can make hybrids with other females which avoids any issues straight up ,


anyhow you dont care what i say or do you read it ,
you would prefer to think im trying to make u look silly ,
which i assure i am not ,
i dont need too ....



if you were really interested in learning about breeding plants , how it works etc ,

you can buy a book , i recommend this one , ive gotten some good value with it ,
its not a cheap book , i got 2 at the same time and it came to something like $700 ,
but its better than looking on the net as its all about one subject and the same topic ,
it covers most things you would need to refer to in debates like we have been having ...

and its something u probably can read a few times before it all sinks in properly ..

 

[@hempy]

Thanks Sam.
I intentionally left out that Hempy was using research on male "seed beetle" insects to describe the role of male plants in cannabis. Clearly a completely different thing. Even worse, the article doesn't really seem to say what his quotes would suggest either, at least with cannabis.
I wondered if anyone would care enough to click the link.


I know he can Hempy. He has, over and over.
I had forgotten this Fem seed debate with you goes back all the way to 2010 at MNS. Maybe even longer. You digging in, Donald and Elmer trying to explain things to you. This topic may have even been the exact issue that led you to have your old ICmag account closed down back then.

I found this thread you made while looking for the Nevil quote on bottlenecking:
https://www.mrnice.nl/forum/6-breede...html#post57588
So much passion around the subject back then.
You actually did some good research, although your studies never covered STS, the gamechanger in female cannabis reversal. Before then, most reversal methods depended on stress techniques to trigger the plant survival mechanism. Of course those techniques were most effective with females that were already sensitive to stress induces herm conditions.

The correlation between herms in the seeds from those parent selections and the methods used to produce pollen from them did much to perpetuate the "reversing females to make seeds results in hermie offspring" myth. Your notes in the thread cover those methods and mechanisms well, but the community wouldn't understand for a few years that it was just correlation and not causation. You still don't understand 10 years later.

It seems like a million years to me. We have learned so much as a community these last 10 years.
It's time to move on from those dark ages you live in Hempy.


Yes, I have not only read what Sam wrote, I understood it.

These days, many people consider what you refer to as "inbreeding depression" to be simply "inbreeding", complete with the variety of recessive traits that can appear. Those phenotypic expressions only appear "depressed" when contrasted with F1 hybrids from an outcross which display "hybrid vigor" considered by some not to be some magical alchemy where 1+1=5, but to be simply the expression of exclusively dominant traits that you get with an F1.

NONE of this has anything to do with selfing and identical results can be achieved (with more effort) via M/F breeding.

It seems you ALWAYS change the subject when cornered on the real issue here which is your insistence that using reversed females as pollen donors to make seeds results in consistently bad plants.
It doesn't. You are wrong.



Again, you completely miss the point of the OG Kush example.
As far as explaining Nevil's quote, that question would have been something you should have asked Nevil during your conversations with him. He mentioned it at least 3 times on MNS that I can find.

I am starting to think that you are not actually trying defend your position here, and that this whole conversation is just a game for you to troll people. Like ULTIMATE trolling x 1000.
Whenever anyone tries to nail you down on the main point that reversing females to make pollen for breeding is a good tool to be considered when specific goals could benefit from it, you change the subject. Sometimes, you even and ask the other party to defend YOUR tangential point, like you did with Donald here when he asked you why you thought selfing was the cause of a problem . . . amazing



You are either maddeningly stubborn and insecure, or some kind of super genius. Either way, this debate is well worn ground for you but i think some of this new(er) stuff is starting to leak in to your head. There's a little flickering candle of understanding showing up in some of your side conversations with Sam.

I'm gonna pat myself on the back for explaining what Sam said to you in the very beginning over and over in different creative ways while you get defensive and lash out at someone trying to help you.
I said I wasn't going to do it, but I am no match for your troll powers Hempy.

What point you are trying to make or raise here Raho how about you post that and leave the negativity and personal attacks out of it.

Are you saying selfing dose not cause cannabis inbreeding depression that results in a reduced biological fitness in the s1 s2 and so on ?. if so then can you explain why s1 plants show a huge reduction in yield and vigor.

Can you also tell us why you think plants that are selfed to s2 s3 and s4 are not suffering from reduced biological fitness when they clearly are ?.

The difference with male and female inbreeding / matting to selfing is huge firstly you dont see a loss of yield were you do in a S1.

The F1 magic comes from outbreeding enhancement. Sam said you see that also from a unrelated selfed female to a unrelated female.

I have inbreed a Thai line 10 generations i never saw a loss of yield or loss in potency or saw a reduced biological fitness.

Saying that i am open to the theory that there may of had changes i could not see or detect.

I do feel that a male plays a key roll in this and this is why.

Males can act to remove the mutation load on population viability, thereby offering a benefit to sexual reproduction.Sexual reproduction can increase population viability relative to asexual reproduction by allowing sexual selection in males to remove deleterious mutations from the population without large demographic costs.

The Y chromosome is passed on without recombination, the DNA on that chromosome provides a genetic history of a males paternal ancestral line.

 

[Elmer Bud]

Sam sold mostly IBLs . I made lots of great F1 hybrids in Holland sold through Cultivators Choice. Many more seeds than Nevil made, I sold millions a year. -SamS
Sold them for 10 cents a seed he says .

Nevil bought them , crossed them and made F1s . And sold them for 1000 times what Sam sold him the IBLs for .
$100 in 1989 is equal to $200 dollars today .

Also understood that if people wanted the same results year on year they needed to buy more of his F1s .

Or just make clones from their best F1's, Nevil's or mine, my goal was different than Nevil's, to be honest his primary goal was $, mine was to spread great genetics to the world and still make a decent living. I also took little to no risk as I only sold seeds where legal, Nevil did otherwise and paid the price. Risk and Return are often closely related. -SamS

I was thinking in the early days in the Netherlands .
Durban , Sk , Haze IBL .

Also was thinking in terms of outdoor growing and buying new F1 seeds every season . Talkin 1980s the indoor growing was still in its infancy . 10 years later and indoors and clones were more the norm .

 

[TheDarkStorm]

Inbreeding...mostly I see people who dont know what ther doing...let alone have a goal...or saying that a mish mash of unknown genetics, with no testing, no back up's, just put together for no other reson than the latest fancy fad....an people say its gona match a true purposely built tested f1....the problem is most people arent even seening the results of true f1 hybrids no more..not many about.....is g13haze ibl as good as the original f1 g13haze.....genetically it will probably seem like the same thing... but ive seen how proper f1 hybrids work....ther usually faster, bigger, stronger, much heavier yielding...do people know what true f1 hybrid vigour means an what actually happens wen done properly.

 

[harvestreaper]

Inbreeding...mostly I see people who dont know what ther doing...let alone have a goal...or saying that a mish mash of unknown genetics, with no testing, no back up's, just put together for no other reson than the latest fancy fad....an people say its gona match a true purposely built tested f1....the problem is most people arent even seening the results of true f1 hybrids no more..not many about.....is g13haze ibl as good as the original f1 g13haze.....genetically it will probably seem like the same thing... but ive seen how proper f1 hybrids work....ther usually faster, bigger, stronger, much heavier yielding...do people know what true f1 hybrid vigour means an what actually happens wen done properly.

sounds like your saying ,,two ibl will create a more vigorous stable f1 than two scatterbreds which i agree with ,at the same time its a lot more of a challenge to maintain vigour without crossing as it has to be selected for,,, personally no matter how a plant is bred it has to have vigour and a strong lifeforce for me to breed it on

 

[Betterhaff]

Heterosis is a crazy thing, I still don’t think they actually know how it actually works.

 

[RoyalFlush]

Sam sold mostly IBLs . I made lots of great F1 hybrids in Holland sold through Cultivators Choice. Many more seeds than Nevil made, I sold millions a year. -SamS
Sold them for 10 cents a seed he says .

Nevil bought them , crossed them and made F1s . And sold them for 1000 times what Sam sold him the IBLs for .
$100 in 1989 is equal to $200 dollars today .

Also understood that if people wanted the same results year on year they needed to buy more of his F1s .

Or just make clones from their best F1's, Nevil's or mine, my goal was different than Nevil's, to be honest his primary goal was $, mine was to spread great genetics to the world and still make a decent living. I also took little to no risk as I only sold seeds where legal, Nevil did otherwise and paid the price. Risk and Return are often closely related. -SamS

I don't see Nevil's primary goal of $$$ as a bad thing, at the end of the day Nevil gave growers what they wanted AND also gave people around the world an opportunity to obtain quality genetics.

Sam, I think you do great work, Heck If you made an actual Book regarding cannabis growing, breeding, ect.. I would totally buy it.

 

[Raco]

and its something u probably can read a few times before it all sinks in properly ..

View Image

The finger pressed unrefined resin ...kaiki´s Panama P1

 

[RoyalFlush]

Royal Flush i didnt know that he breed something other than Cannabis.
Do you have any evidences for that ?
Probably if he breed something that good it must be somewhere some evidences for that animal breeding.

What i know that he was doing what every breeder do today.
Just he was first at doing that and he becomes a star for this reason.

Skunk 1,NL,HP,CO,Haze...and many others were strains he get and mixed them in way he like.
The best he ever made is NLxHaze after this everything other is just recombination of this cross.
SSH,MangoH,NevillesH....all start with NLxHaze.

Like every other breeder do today just today it is easier to find good genetics and start breeding.

ChicagoG is that you with a new account?

Nevil was not your typical juvenile delinquent. At age seven, he began raising parakeets; two years later he joined the Parakeet Society of Western Australia. “My best friend across the road got some parakeets,” he explains. “and I got extremely jealous. After he started breeding I became quite adamant I’d do the same.”

He eventually became friends with one of Australia’s leading parakeet breeders, Bob Graham. “I learned an awful lot from him,” he says. “He was a quadriplegic and he was incredibly intelligent.” Nevil learned Mendel’s laws of breeding and began charting dominant, recessive, and intermediate traits for his birds (something he would later do with cannabis plants). “I bought some of Graham’s stock and got immediate results,” he says, “When you breed parakeets, you breed to an ideal. It’s like sculpting with genes.”

 

[Hammerhead]

When I self seeds I'm looking for those good recessive traits I like. I'm not aware of a faster/better way to bring these out. I'm pretty sure most know this can also produce bad plants as well. Making the right selections along the way is key.

If you breed with plants that show bad recessive traits you get hempy plants

 

[@hempy]

When I self seeds I'm looking for those good recessive traits I like. I'm not aware of a faster/better way to bring these out. I'm pretty sure most know this can also produce bad plants as well. Making the right sections along the way is key.

If you breed with plants that show bad recessive traits you get hempy plants

 

[Hammerhead]

At least you still have a sense of humor .

 

[Elmer Bud]

ChicagoG is that you with a new account?

Nevil was not your typical juvenile delinquent. At age seven, he began raising parakeets; two years later he joined the Parakeet Society of Western Australia. “My best friend across the road got some parakeets,” he explains. “and I got extremely jealous. After he started breeding I became quite adamant I’d do the same.”

He eventually became friends with one of Australia’s leading parakeet breeders, Bob Graham. “I learned an awful lot from him,” he says. “He was a quadriplegic and he was incredibly intelligent.” Nevil learned Mendel’s laws of breeding and began charting dominant, recessive, and intermediate traits for his birds (something he would later do with cannabis plants). “I bought some of Graham’s stock and got immediate results,” he says, “When you breed parakeets, you breed to an ideal. It’s like sculpting with genes.”

Show me the prizes , the awards or at least the lines he created that carried on or it`s just some guy on the internet talkin .

It may be true . But at the moment it just anecdotes from sycophants .

 

[RoyalFlush]

Show me the prizes , the awards or at least the lines he created that carried on or it`s just some guy on the internet talkin .

It may be true . But at the moment it just anecdotes from sycophants .

Reefermans testimony doesn't fulfill your curiosity? then again he is questionable.

Elmer Bud I am with you on this one, I'm also too lazy to use Google and read thru a ton of crap.

 

[Elmer Bud]

This guy is integral to The Seed Bank and Nevil .

Mr Cogo here is the guy who facilitated Green Merchant .
He was Nevil`s USA seed distributor . He got busted with a crop and not only snitched Nevil , but also gave the names and addresses of the people who bought seeds from Nevil .
https://cogosoriginalplantfood.com/about/
OUR STORY
Ray Cogo traveled to the Netherlands in 1986-1989 where he collected herb and flower formulations from professional cultivators, then he returned to the USA. The new product that was created used fine ground calcium and magnesium that keeps the fertilizer in Ionic form even in cold water. The finished product was brought back to the Netherlands where it was extensively tested by professional cultivators.

Gourmet Gardens Fertilizer LLC is a American company that specializes in liquid plant food concentrates and has been featured in GM Pro Greenhouse magazine as Innovator of the Year, in Growing Edge Magazine as well as many other newspapers and magazines.

An affidavit from a man claiming to have acted as Schoenmakers' US distributor told the US District Court of Louisiana that on a trip to Holland he had seen a duffel bag full of envelopes containing hundreds of dollars in cash and orders for marijuana seeds.

"Schoenmakers would cause the seeds to be shipped to me in bulk, wrapped in packets and labelled according to to the quantity and type of seeds involved, which packets were shipped in sealed soup cans that were packaged in a box full with food items. The soup cans contained lead inserts … and would weigh what the label on the soup can said the can should weigh," Raymond Anthony Cogo told the court.

 

[RoyalFlush]

A5haze s1
Had this same pheno on the 97 NH

 

[@hempy]

Why are people that grow Nevil's work continuing to attack him in this thread when we are discussing haze or even breeding.The shots just fly out of the blue so clearly there has to be motivation /agenda at play.

I found something interesting today all of the US prosecution court papers For Nevil case in the US state of Louisiana.

 

[@hempy]

Or just make clones from their best F1's, Nevil's or mine, my goal was different than Nevil's, to be honest his primary goal was $, mine was to spread great genetics to the world and still make a decent living. I also took little to no risk as I only sold seeds where legal, Nevil did otherwise and paid the price. Risk and Return are often closely related. -SamS

I liked Nevil Sam i got to know the side of him away from the businesses world but saying that the saying you don't work or do businesses with friends and family is something i live by it never ends well.

 

[LekkerWiet]

A5haze s1
Had this same pheno on the 97 NH

View Image

NL5xhazeA x Haze C =NH.

And you growing A5s1.