@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
Hi GF to be honest i have never read or heard of R1.
Just did a little research
R1 comes from 2 related female (sisters), where one female is reversed to pollinate the other female.
The Haze discussion thread
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Hi GF to be honest i have never read or heard of R1.
Just did a little research
R1 comes from 2 related female (sisters), where one female is reversed to pollinate the other female.
GlandualFever
Active member
@Hempy
Found a quote from u about ur 2 MH keepers. Did they really finish at 8/9 weeks from clone? That's a huge reduction in flower time compared to the seed plants.
"I grew out test seeds as i was lucky inuf to be 1 of the 10 testers in 2002 being at the right place at the right times for once lol.
Now not one plant female plant came in under 16 weeks by memmory but most around 16 weeks and a few at around 17/18 weeks.
Now the suprise my 2 selected females i call queeny and other both took the longest 17/18 weeks now from clone they come in at 8 and 9 weeks of flower."
Found a quote from u about ur 2 MH keepers. Did they really finish at 8/9 weeks from clone? That's a huge reduction in flower time compared to the seed plants.
"I grew out test seeds as i was lucky inuf to be 1 of the 10 testers in 2002 being at the right place at the right times for once lol.
Now not one plant female plant came in under 16 weeks by memmory but most around 16 weeks and a few at around 17/18 weeks.
Now the suprise my 2 selected females i call queeny and other both took the longest 17/18 weeks now from clone they come in at 8 and 9 weeks of flower."
I think he had trouble with the timer on the lights 1st round .
I read the grow log . I remember there was a fck up , the plants took an eternity .
Then Hempy used to brag about the yield from his 18 week Mango Haze .
That was the grow and show where JessE wanted to know if he could feed the Mango Haze with parakeet guano ,
Posted re earlier in the thread ...
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
Hi GF i honestly cant remember the flowering time of the clones but they were faster than the seed plants i do have notes some were but i lost the f1 clones over a decade ago.I do remember the seed flowering times as they took forever to flower.
The MH test seed acted like Nevil's Haze and a lot different to the official released version of MH.
The grow log was at Cannabis world in the MrNice forum.
There was no fk up with the MH grow and people that just talk shit or rubbish people should just STFU and focus on there own shortcomings.
Bucksaw Haze
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
Also another point, using STS does not need to be selfing, if you use a transformed Female as the pollen source and pollinate a completely different and unrelated Female there is no inbreeding it is more like an F1, just all Female.
-SamS
I was thinking last night about what you posted and it made a lot of cense to me.
I understand many of the problems inbreeding causes in dogs horses people and also like we see in cannabis S1/S2 so on.
Here is were i get confused Sam when inbreeding say a heirloom/land race Cannabis line or a tomato line like my late friends mom did for over 40 years you don't see the same changes Well they don't appear to be visible.
-SamS
I was thinking last night about what you posted and it made a lot of cense to me.
I understand many of the problems inbreeding causes in dogs horses people and also like we see in cannabis S1/S2 so on.
Here is were i get confused Sam when inbreeding say a heirloom/land race Cannabis line or a tomato line like my late friends mom did for over 40 years you don't see the same changes Well they don't appear to be visible.
why do u think there is problems with inbreeding in cannabis selfing?
didnt u ask a few pages ago to hh what inbreeding and selfing had in common , insinuating they had nothing in common ?
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
Why don't you enlighten us Donald and YOU tell us why Selfing causes loss of yield loss of vigor its ability to deal with environmental changes and its ability to deal with pets and the onset of sterility.
Why should he enlighten you Hempy?
Sam and I have already explained it multiple times and you are apparently incapable of understanding.
I'll say it again:
It's the original genetics and the selections that lead to the appearance of problems, not the method of pollen production.
Did you not understand that Sam's reply to me validated every point I made in my question to him? The things you disagreed with me about?
You then agreed with Sam's post, thanked him for his reply, and immediately resumed blaming selfing again, highlighting the "failure" of his breeding because the results included negative traits (that Sam didn't care about) thereby contradicting yourself and showing you had no understanding at all of what he was saying.
Why do you insist on continuing to embarrass yourself like this?
Nobody wants to give you a hard time about it.
I have been hoping that you would just let it go. Agree to disagree. Let people believe whatever they want.
The problem is that you insist on arguing with (what at this point is) everyone who disagrees with you on this. They defeat you in the debate and then you try to change the subject tangentially.
You may have noticed that not a single person has joined you in this thread to defend your position that selfing is the cause of bad seedlines. Think about it. Not 1 person.
If some new troll account shows up and starts agreeing with you, I'll ignore them, but I encourage any known veteran members to come to your aid and help you defend your position.
7 years ago, 80% of the people on most forums forum would have agreed with you regardless of who was debating or what was said.
There is something you are not understanding. It starts on page 375 and continues in the words on the last 12 pages of this thread.
The more you keep arguing this, the more people with start to doubt everything you say.
Please stop.
I'll end this post with an example I hope gets through to you:
OG Kush.
Right now, almost every grower on the planet who wants one has a pure OG line or a highly OG dominant line in their garden or seed collection. If they don't, there is no reason why they shouldn't as they are everywhere.
The OG genotype is one of the most consistently desirable lines in the world. It is not a perfect line for some growers. It has a viney structure indoors and throws a few nanners on the bottom indoors if you make some mistakes. But the smell, appearance, resin production, flower density, taste, effect and potency are all top shelf wherever you go. Generations removed from the original bagseed, it makes fire so much like the momma that people get away with calling them the original.
ALL of those seedlines originate from S1 genetics.
If you follow the line back far enough. Most seeds sold as OG S1s (TK S1, Ghost S1, etc etc.) are actually S2 or S3 at BEST from some unnamed ancestor. Depending on where they come from, they could easily be S4 or later.
I know you remember when Nevil proudly faced people who were accusing him of bottlenecking the genepool and he said yes, he was . . . he was "bottlenecking for quality."
OG Kush is a PERFECT example of that, and for 99% of the people running it today it is a multi-generational selfed line.
The example of OG Kush completely refutes what you keep saying, that the act of SELFING inevitably creates bad plants.
You are literally arguing with the entire cannabis world when you say that as nobody is out there saying that OG Kush is not great pot. It might not be their favorite or their preference, but they KNOW it's fire.
Again Hempy, PLEASE stop this pointless arguing. Agree to disagree and move on to argue about something else. This is silly.
Tomato and cannabis genomes are quite different. Reproductively different, as well. And heirloom and land-race need to be treated with separate definitions. Landrace tomatoes probably aren't very good to our pallete. Heirloom tomatoes and preserved (available) varieties don't display the degeneration you might expect because they have already been guided to a homozygous genotype. (Mostly.) Sam noted that heterozygosity was very pervasive in cannabis, if not completely unavoidable at a certain point.
It's like comparing apples and oranges. Or cannabis and tomatoes.
That and while Cannabis is dioecious with separate flowers for males and females Tomatoes have perfect flowers with both in the same flower, Cannabis is an Obligate outcrosser, most Tomatoes are not. Heirloom tomatoes are easy to maintain even with just a few plants, Cannabis requires 2,000 minimum, 1,000 Females and 1,000 Males from seed to maintain a landrace of Cannabis, use less plants and genes will be lost and the variety will change a bit every year because of this.
-SamS
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@Hemphrey, he got it from here:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jeb.12862
A quick search easily finds his cut/paste
Nothing wrong with using outside sources of course. Just better to give them credit when you do it and not claim you wrote it.
I looked at the link it is not for plants it is for insects if that matters, I prefer plant references as Cannabis is a Dioecious, Heterozygous, Obligate Outcrosser, and is different from most plants much less insects. -SamS
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G `day Sam
Obligate outcrosser ?
Heard you say that multiple times now . So it must outcross to reproduce ? NO -SamS
But what about intersexed plants they don`t need to outcross . They can reproduce individually ?
Or are you talking about the gene pool as a whole in general terms ?
I am refering to Cannabis vs other plant species, and the fact most flowering plants are perfect, while Cannabis is Dioecious or imperfect. I think Dioecious is only 5-6% of all the flowering plants found.
-SamS
Obligate outcrosser ?
Heard you say that multiple times now . So it must outcross to reproduce ? NO -SamS
But what about intersexed plants they don`t need to outcross . They can reproduce individually ?
Or are you talking about the gene pool as a whole in general terms ?
I am refering to Cannabis vs other plant species, and the fact most flowering plants are perfect, while Cannabis is Dioecious or imperfect. I think Dioecious is only 5-6% of all the flowering plants found.
-SamS
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@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
Hi Raho Donald can answer for him self i along with many others have grown very tired of the group bulling and attacks in this thread.
I have enjoyed my interaction with Sam and Sam has been very helpful with his posts.
Have you read what has been posted by Sam ?, Clearly not because what selfing dose is speed up inbreeding depression that means reduced biological fitness.That is why you see a huge loss in yield a loss in vigor a loss in the plants ability to deal with environmental changes and pests and why it becomes sterile.
How do you fix that you introduce a unrelated mate that is called outbreeding enhancement.
Research and stop acting like you know it all i never claimed to know it all and i am more than willing to further my knowledge and will to the end.Ow and OG kush would not be something i would smoke.
How is creating a F1 hybrid "bottlenecking for quality." ?
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
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Here is my Original OG x Mango Haze I made several years ago. Ive been running it a long time. Real good fresh ripe Mango flavor and odor. Strong soaring head high with some legs too
Here is my OGMango Haze x Roasted Garlic male
The little Jumping spider on the leaf, has been hanging out on this plant for at least a week
Here is my OGMango Haze x Roasted Garlic male
The little Jumping spider on the leaf, has been hanging out on this plant for at least a week
while that number makes perfect sense sam as a minimum requirement i find it hard to understand it as more than theory as to the way cannabis in the wild could be reduced to very small populations through environmental diseases over many different generations etc and then repopulated again of course this would of selected out many genes but they can all come back again recombine which could be beneficial as only the survivors of said diseases offspring repopulated the strain dosnt nature do that all the time??? ,,,, maybe that could not be replocated in a lab or greenhouse dont know not tried
an "heirloom" acapulco gold ,crossed to a "landrace" uhkrul
Thanks Sam.
I intentionally left out that Hempy was using research on male "seed beetle" insects to describe the role of male plants in cannabis. Clearly a completely different thing. Even worse, the article doesn't really seem to say what his quotes would suggest either, at least with cannabis.
I wondered if anyone would care enough to click the link.
I know he can Hempy. He has, over and over.
I had forgotten this Fem seed debate with you goes back all the way to 2010 at MNS. Maybe even longer. You digging in, Donald and Elmer trying to explain things to you. This topic may have even been the exact issue that led you to have your old ICmag account closed down back then.
I found this thread you made while looking for the Nevil quote on bottlenecking:
https://www.mrnice.nl/forum/6-breede...html#post57588
So much passion around the subject back then.
You actually did some good research, although your studies never covered STS, the gamechanger in female cannabis reversal. Before then, most reversal methods depended on stress techniques to trigger the plant survival mechanism. Of course those techniques were most effective with females that were already sensitive to stress induces herm conditions.
The correlation between herms in the seeds from those parent selections and the methods used to produce pollen from them did much to perpetuate the "reversing females to make seeds results in hermie offspring" myth. Your notes in the thread cover those methods and mechanisms well, but the community wouldn't understand for a few years that it was just correlation and not causation. You still don't understand 10 years later.
It seems like a million years to me. We have learned so much as a community these last 10 years.
It's time to move on from those dark ages you live in Hempy.
Yes, I have not only read what Sam wrote, I understood it.
These days, many people consider what you refer to as "inbreeding depression" to be simply "inbreeding", complete with the variety of recessive traits that can appear. Those phenotypic expressions only appear "depressed" when contrasted with F1 hybrids from an outcross which display "hybrid vigor" considered by some not to be some magical alchemy where 1+1=5, but to be simply the expression of exclusively dominant traits that you get with an F1.
NONE of this has anything to do with selfing and identical results can be achieved (with more effort) via M/F breeding.
It seems you ALWAYS change the subject when cornered on the real issue here which is your insistence that using reversed females as pollen donors to make seeds results in consistently bad plants.
It doesn't. You are wrong.
Again, you completely miss the point of the OG Kush example.
As far as explaining Nevil's quote, that question would have been something you should have asked Nevil during your conversations with him. He mentioned it at least 3 times on MNS that I can find.
I am starting to think that you are not actually trying defend your position here, and that this whole conversation is just a game for you to troll people. Like ULTIMATE trolling x 1000.
Whenever anyone tries to nail you down on the main point that reversing females to make pollen for breeding is a good tool to be considered when specific goals could benefit from it, you change the subject. Sometimes, you even and ask the other party to defend YOUR tangential point, like you did with Donald here when he asked you why you thought selfing was the cause of a problem . . . amazing
You are either maddeningly stubborn and insecure, or some kind of super genius. Either way, this debate is well worn ground for you but i think some of this new(er) stuff is starting to leak in to your head. There's a little flickering candle of understanding showing up in some of your side conversations with Sam.
I'm gonna pat myself on the back for explaining what Sam said to you in the very beginning over and over in different creative ways while you get defensive and lash out at someone trying to help you.
I said I wasn't going to do it, but I am no match for your troll powers Hempy.
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