Teaming with Microbes: The Organic Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web

[EatMoGrass]

I'm glad I bumped this thread this morning. I too enjoy reading your discussion here as I cannot find my copy as of now. I know I have seen it since I moved last summer but...

 

[grapeman]

Grapeman this sounds a lot like the reasons given by monsanto, and big agri-business to why the local, sustainable food model is not practical. When in reality it is the energy intensive way of industrial agriculture that is quickly becoming impractical as oil is depleted. So I think this "book knowledge" about teaming with microbes is THE ONLY practical way to sustain ourselves into the future.

Peace, NJ

You're preaching to the choir. I was using compost and inoculating soil with myco in the early 1980's. Realities are such that each dollar spent needs to be returned each and every year with each and every crop. I was one of the first to grow table grapes without any pesticide. Problem was, I never got 1 penny/lb. more for that effort.

Economies are different in your back yard or back room.

And I welcome any debate regarding the fact that the produce industry is not still supply & demand. While corn, wheat & tobacco may receive subsidies, fruits and vegetables do not. I have lived though the influx of produce from mexico (with their $10/day labor vs. our $100/day labor (todays wages)) in the late '70's & '80's, and watched Chile and So. Africa become our fruit stand during our winters. When I say every penny spent must return a penny & a half, I mean it. Many organic remedies are subtle and take time to take effect... like in years. The largest organic grape grower went broke in the early 2000's.

So I have learned quickly that produce went from a local summer delight that we railed to NY City to an over abundant commodity on a global scale air shipped and delivered overnight to Tokyo & London. I'm still kicking and selling to Krogers, CostCo, Wal-Mart, Safeway and Asian and UK retailers.

So bring the supply & demand discussion, I can handle it.

But as to this thread, my simple point is "What is practical and productive" in the grow room, with a hobby or extremely high value crop, does not always translate to the farm and I don't really care what the professors say. I've had more professors visit my ranches to learn then to teach.

 

[mad librettist]

GRAPEMAN PLEASE!

Let's start another thread on michael pollan's "the omnivore's dilemma" or "in defense of food".

But this is about teaming with microbes. It's for gardeners.

Pretty please? You are suffocating the thread. 9 times on 10 this kind of bickering kills the thread. No one replies anymore. Everybody loses. You included.

It is so simple to start a thread.

 

[grapeman]

I think the claim is that clay soil takes more work to get started, but in the end is even better once it's fully penetrated and colonized.

I don't know though. I have never had clay soil so don't really know shit. But as i read the book, I remember all kinds of things I've already seen happen, and feel I understand better.

The point they make is that when you destroy what networks exist and break apart aggregates created by bacteria, you get a short term gain and long term pain. Although at least by hand you avoid making hardpan.

There is an interesting device that pulls a whole buttload of cores out, which is supposed to be much healthier.

OK then back to the thread. Aside from soil amendments (they would differ depending on the soil you are starting with (clay to sand), a good practice, and one used by most knowledgeable farmers is to plant cover crops between the rows of the permanent crops. For clay or hardpan soils, there are deep rooted cover crops that will aerate and open the soil. For sandy soils, there are cover crops that will actually put n-p-k et al into the soil. These cover crops also compete with weeds and help clean up the field over time without the need for tilling or herbicides. The goal is always to achieve no or low till. but it can take time to get there. I've even planted cover crops to remove salts from alkaline soil or herbicide/pesticide from soil on land that was used by other farmers and still in the soil. These grasses sometimes are grown for up to a years to sweeten the soil before it should be used. Then a more permeant cover crop is planted with the permanent crop. To learn what cover crop will best suit your area and soil is about the only thing the USDA Extension Service is good for. They have a list for your area and needs.

Tilling has been on the way out since the 1970's for any decent farmer. Most use mowers in permanent crops today with tractors with flotation tires (like the golf courses use) to reduce compaction.

 

[mad librettist]

Cool grapeman.

Not to badger, and don't take this as a push away, but are you reading the book?

Also, jaykush likes to pass around a free book called "weed, guardians of the soil". It points out in the early chapters how purslane helps corn (no shitting!). I'd love to talk about that with you in a dedicated thread sometime.

It sure is useful to have perspective from a pro.

 

[Zendo]

What a great book! I read it last week, and now am going through it again.

This time will be a little slower, to help some of the stuff really sink in.

I just did a test from the 'fungal head start' section.

I combined 3 Tbs of Baby Oatmeal to a cup of EWC, and let sit over the weekend on a heating pad with a very loose non fitting 'cover' on top. I'm sure I didn't have the temp at 80 the whole time, but after 2 days, I had a LARGE amount of visible fungi. Definitely looked like 'santa's beard'. When I went to scoop out a cups worth for AACT, it was almost 'glued' together by fungal threads.

I'll just do this in 2 cup increments from now on, every new tea will get the next round of fungal boosted EWC..

 

[secondtry]

Hey all,

I am posting this because I posted in the LED vs HID thread and I figure I should post here to, but I am not coming back, I just wanted to make an important point:

This book is good, yes, but it's not the Holy Grail as *someone* would have you think. Much of the info is guided by Dr. Ingham which in itself should make you guys/gals pause before accepting it as the Word of God. This is a great book no doubt, and it's a great intro into soil science and soil-microbiology, but in my reading of the previous release I found many errors, I assume they have not been corrected in this small revision of the book.

My point is this: don't stop at reading this book alone, there are many more books to read like "The handbook of microbial biofertilizers" (link), and I wholly prefer reading studies and journal articles so I get the info direct, without the possible and probable (albeit unintentional) molestation by the authors of TWM.

And lastly, just because *someone* has read this book it doesn't make him an instant expert which he seems to think it does...

 

[grapeman]

Cool grapeman.

Not to badger, and don't take this as a push away, but are you reading the book?

Also, jaykush likes to pass around a free book called "weed, guardians of the soil". It points out in the early chapters how purslane helps corn (no shitting!). I'd love to talk about that with you in a dedicated thread sometime.

It sure is useful to have perspective from a pro.

I am awaiting delivery from my local library (only 1 book in my county system). I will reserve comments here until I've read. NP

 

[Zendo]

Hey all,

I am posting this because I posted in the LED vs HID thread and I figure I should post here to, but I am not coming back, I just wanted to make an important point:

This book is good, yes, but it's not the Holy Grail as *someone* would have you think. Much of the info is guided by Dr. Ingham which in itself should make you guys/gals pause before accepting it as the Word of God. This is a great book no doubt, and it's a great intro into soil science and soil-microbiology, but in my reading of the previous release I found many errors, I assume they have not been corrected in this small revision of the book.

My point is this: don't stop at reading this book alone, there are many more books to read like "The handbook of microbial biofertilizers" (link), and I wholly prefer reading studies and journal articles so I get the info direct, without the possible and probable (albeit unintentional) molestation by the authors of TWM.

And lastly, just because *someone* (I hope you all know the person I am referring to) has read this book it doesn't make him an instant expert which he seems to think it does; e.g. AFAIK ammonium nitrate IS nitrate...

I think everyone is wrong about something quite often..I'm sure that Dr Ingham, and you included are guilty of that.. I know that I've found errors in things, or didn't agree with what the people post in here, and that includes the "experts" and yes, even moderators..

Not sure what your backstory/drama is with announcing your "disappearing" and then coming back to post, but announcing that your not really "coming" back, etc..

Seems kind of high school IMO.. If you don't like whats on here, or the people, no need to "announce" you are leaving...just leave.Or put certain users on ignore, or don't read their posts..

If you want to stay and post, just stay and post..

So welcome "not really back".... I think your posts, while sometimes a little "over my head" are a big asset to the community. Hopefully you can figure it out and stick around.

If not..

Peace out.

 

[secondtry]

And if anyone wants more info from TWM join the Yahoo! CompostTea group which was founded by Jeff L, and is also co-moderated now by CTGuy. That is where to ask specific questions about this book, but my same warning applies to the Yahoo! group: do not accept everything you read as fact, however, there are MANY professionals who are members of the Yahoo! CT group which makes joing worth it for sure.

I don't read/post at the Yahoo! group anymore because it's the same questions and discussion over, and over, and over again...boring IMO. However, that is the place where you can contact Dr. Ingham and get respones from her ,etc, if anyone wants her reponses that is...I for one could care less what she writes...

 

[secondtry]

I think everyone is wrong about something quite often..I'm sure that Dr Ingham, and you included are guilty of that.. I know that I've found errors in things, or didn't agree with what the people post in here, and that includes the "experts" and yes, even moderators..

Not sure what your backstory/drama is with announcing your "disappearing" and then coming back to post, but announcing that your not really "coming" back, etc..

Seems kind of high school IMO.. If you don't like whats on here, or the people, no need to "announce" you are leaving...just leave.Or put certain users on ignore, or don't read their posts..

If you want to stay and post, just stay and post..

So welcome "not really back".... I think your posts, while sometimes a little "over my head" are a big asset to the community. Hopefully you can figure it out and stick around.

If not..

Peace out.

You can think what you like, I post that I am not comming back (to post in public) so people know what I am doing. I get over a dozen PMs over a day or two, every day or two and I want people to know why I may not get back to them right away.

Also, I want people to get correct info, and I have tried for that for a long time, but the constant noise from some members and then ignorant aggrement by others drives me batty! I spend hours on a single post insuring it's correct and then someone comes along and posts BS they pull out of thin air and many people believe them! That is not only a disrespect to me but also to the facts...

The main reason I posted here today is I am sick of seeing *someone* post like he is an expert when it's obvious he is not, and the info makes other people think they now what is what, when they really don't.

There are a couple of memebers in this sub-forum who work in unison to try and refute what I write, not beucase I'm wrong but becuase they simply want to be the ones who are right (which they often are not).

 

[VerdantGreen]

infamy! infamy! - they've all got it infamy

w/ no-till, wouldn't it be a good 4+ years before you could make any accurate comparisons to a double dug bed? i think the double dug would out-perform at first. But, the no-till should catch up then exceed - no?

i cant say ive ever done a side by side but if you are growing veg in a rotation system then the potato crop will amount to single digging every 3-4 yeats anyway by the time you have earthed them up to protect from frost and dug them out to harvest them.

if you work with raised beds (apparently i use the chinese system but cant say ive everheard of it) then you are leaving undisturbed soil where the paths between the beds are anyway- i suspect this would expedite the re-colonisation of fungus anyway.

perhaps its a cultural thing but i dont really like using heavy machinary like rototillers or some super duper holow tine aerator to do work that i can do myself with a bit of hard work

V.

 

[NUG-JUG]

2ndtry I don't think anyone here takes the book as the only authority on organic gardening. I realize Dr. Ingham might not be hip with all the science out there, but she's gotten a lot of people to start composting. Her forward comparing dead soil to a dead city is so simple a child could understand it.

Grapeman-Thanks for the tip on cover crops

 

[secondtry]

Arg!!! Dr. Ingham is the WORST source for composting info, as is TWM! She is doing composting a disservice with her BS about compost...that is one of my main gripes! What she calls compost I would never call compost, nor would others who make real compost, what she and TWM calls compost I call ACT-compost; it's not really compost, esp the woody crap she calls compost!

 

[CT Guy]

And if anyone wants more info from TWM join the Yahoo! CompostTea group which was founded by Jeff L, and is also co-moderated now by CTGuy. That is where to ask specific questions about this book, but my same warning applies to the Yahoo! group: do not accept everything you read as fact, however, there are MANY professionals who are members of the Yahoo! CT group which makes joing worth it for sure.

I don't read/post at the Yahoo! group anymore because it's the same questions and discussion over, and over, and over again...boring IMO. However, that is the place where you can contact Dr. Ingham and get respones from her ,etc, if anyone wants her reponses that is...I for one could care less what she writes...

Just a slight correction...I don't co-moderate in that group, but do contribute from time to time.

Cheers,
CT

 

[Zendo]

Arg!!! Dr. Ingham is the WORST source for composting info, as is TWM! She is doing composting a disservice with her BS about compost...that is one of my main gripes! What she calls compost I would never call compost, nor would others who make real compost, what she and TWM calls compost I call ACT-compost; it's not really compost, esp the woody crap she calls compost!

Indicas are good for chilling out...

Maybe start a thread called "2nd try's compost recipe and guide" and break down exactly what you do, why, and why you think it is more effective than other recipes. Instead of trying to break other people down, try building something up and helping people? Usually a better method of communicating IMHO.

Or , write your own book.

Just put those users you refer to on "ignore" and you'll never have to deal with them again..?

 

[xmobotx]

iif you work with raised beds (apparently i use the chinese system but cant say ive everheard of it) then you are leaving undisturbed soil where the paths between the beds are anyway- i suspect this would expedite the re-colonisation of fungus anyway.

perhaps its a cultural thing but i dont really like using heavy machinary like rototillers or some super duper holow tine aerator to do work that i can do myself with a bit of hard work

V.

apparently i am a chinese raised bed gardener as well - lol

but my beds typically have a good 10 feet or more between them and are all hand maintained - I don't even own a roto-tiller

 

[fadahigh]

Hi

Hi

Hey guys, i am new to icmag. I have some stteped compost in a sock for a couple of weeks and the water is very dark but smelly. i was wondering if regular shaking of the bottle and a few drops of H2o2 would kill the anerobic bacteria.??

 

[xmobotx]

lots of info on compost tea here

you want to bubble the tea for 24 - 48 hrs and use

sitting around it gets stagnant

h202 may toast off the good guys in the compost tea (read "kill")

throw that back on the pile and start a new batch

 

[jaykush]

Hey guys, i am new to icmag. I have some stteped compost in a sock for a couple of weeks and the water is very dark but smelly. i was wondering if regular shaking of the bottle and a few drops of H2o2 would kill the anerobic bacteria.??

best just to start over, take some compost, add some water, mix like hell for a min or so. and apply. and like said toss the stuff you have steeping on a compost pile.