Teaming with Microbes: The Organic Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web

[fadahigh]

The smell is not horrible, just a little like sludge. I have given it two or three shakes and most of the smell has disipated and is foaming a little more. i was hoping the aerobic bacteria would survive in the high oxygen environment or might recolonized when finally added to soil. My water schedule already has some h202 in it as my soil has become a little sour as it was very hot and some brown sugar caused cobweb fungus colonies to form. So far the h2o2 has done more good than harm as two plants drooping from transplant to this soil mixed with native clay and topsoil in planting holes. The soil is 50/50 compost/coarse builders sand, amended with cucumber grapefruit and banaskin ashes and brown sugar for flower with a little urine to decompose the carbon rich brown sugar. after the mix cooled down i added to planting holes to cook further. I was hoping the good aerobic microbes from the compost tea could overrun the underground soil fungus.
THANKX FOR ALL THE HELP

 

[foescan]

if you double dig your soil once, by hand, and then never stand on it - you can just top dress/mulch and tickle the top few inches with a fork for many years to come.

VG.

That's exactly what I do. I don't use a tiller on new beds, but I always double dig. Yes, you could sheet compost, or mulch 4"+ with finished compost. . .I've done exactly that, and you better expect to wait at least a year before the bed is ready for a non-cover crop. Or you can till and get great results the same season and get amendments deep into the soil. Compost teas will replenish the herd in short order.

I used to use only straw as a mulch, removing it every fall when I planted cover crops, but now I'm all about a thick layer of compost. My gardening chores have been so reduced that I'm looking for more to do.

Gardening season is here! I've got brandywine, cherokee purple, yellow pear, and supersweet cherry tomatoes all under cloches. And that's just the tomatoes! There's nothing better than a salad with just-picked mesclun greens, pea shoots and fresh herbs.

 

[fadahigh]

Spring rain is starting to fall too Lots of h2o2 in the rain to clean out the soil for gardening

 

[mad librettist]

Well if we a re referring to the book, both tilling and double digging are covered.

But the most fascinating bit was how all the theory behind tilling and digging is from a guy named - get this- Jethro Tull.

I can just see him playing flute while some dude beats a drum while a animal pulls a plow in his garden in the town of Eden.

 

[NUG-JUG]

Arg!!! Dr. Ingham is the WORST source for composting info, as is TWM! She is doing composting a disservice with her BS about compost...that is one of my main gripes! What she calls compost I would never call compost, nor would others who make real compost, what she and TWM calls compost I call ACT-compost; it's not really compost, esp the woody crap she calls compost!

Dude stop bein a hater yo. I say that because you didn't even state what's so bad about the info. She's doing composting a disservice? How by getting thousands of people who didn't give a flying fuck before about growing food, or teaming with microbes (like me) to start?

This is a quote from the book pg.126 last paragraph

.

"How do you know you have good compost? Test it....If it smells bad like vomit or putrefying vinger..thenit should not be used...You know what fresh soil should smell like ; good compost should smell "clean" aswell"

Wow rocket science.

 

[NUG-JUG]

Gardening season is here! I've got brandywine, cherokee purple, yellow pear, and supersweet cherry tomatoes all under cloches. And that's just the tomatoes! There's nothing better than a salad with just-picked mesclun greens, pea shoots and fresh herbs.

Sounds delicious. I've got a messed up clay lawn that's gonna need a lot of work to get there.

 

[mad librettist]

I only have until July this year. It's a bit discouraging.

But I have resolved to get good at identifying weeds.

 

[mad librettist]

...

Double post.

 

[NUG-JUG]

yea the part in the book about dandelions mining themselves out of existence is interesting.

 

[Stoned Crow]

You can think what you like, I post that I am not comming back (to post in public) so people know what I am doing.

Since I've been here, I've seen quite a few people take this path. I now equate it to Babe Ruth calling his shot. You've already done it once, and you weren't successful. I hope it works out for you this time.....SC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

NUG-JUG

"How do you know you have good compost? Test it....If it smells bad like vomit or putrefying vinger..thenit should not be used...You know what fresh soil should smell like ; good compost should smell "clean" aswell"

I actually had that experience at a trade show.

There was a small company offering up their compost to other nursery stock growers and they had a sample out for people to look at and I grabbed up a handful and did the 'smell test' and the woman/owner was stunned!

"Do you always smell your soils and compost and stuff?"

"Yep - I sure do!"

I bought a few bags of their compost and put it out on a new raised bed I'm working to achieve specific nutrient profiles with good results.

You never know - from the smallest producers of anything sometimes come the best stuff. Not always but often enough to continue looking, eh?

CC

 

[mad librettist]

Interestingly, the microbe responsible fir the good soil smell are related to TB.

 

[Stoned Crow]

Interestingly, the microbe responsible fir the good soil smell are related to TB.

That's why everybody with good weed coughs alot...SC

 

[grapeman]

GRAPEMAN PLEASE!

Ahh crap - you removed my "check your fridge" post. Possibly the best line I ever wrote.

 

[mad librettist]

hey it wasn't me!

and for all my attempts to keep peace and big words, I fly off the handle as soon as someone attacks me, and I almost get myself banned for bickering.

lol we all need to be slapped.

I liked that line too.

watch my back guys I am perpetually on thin ice here, and someone wanting to get rid of me only has to provoke me in my weak moments.

 

[ixnay007]

Smoke some weed already!

 

[mad librettist]

Damn I am basically exhaling my morning bong hit as you say that. It's been a week.

Scissor hash last night, pics to come.

So how about we all make some berlese funnels as per part 2?

 

[secondtry]

Dude stop bein a hater yo .

I am not being a hater, I am simply posting FACTS. I don't want other people to be taken in by Dr. Ingham's BS in regard to composting.

I say that because you didn't even state what's so bad about the info.

Yes I did, I wrote the woody crap she calls compost is not compost. The definition of compost IS NOT its microbial makeup. The definition of good compost is its level of "maturity", its level of humus (ala Luebke Humus Score, MidWest Biosystems Humus Score, etc), the elemental levels of sulfur, nitrites, pH, etc.

She's doing composting a disservice? How by getting thousands of people who didn't give a flying fuck before about growing food, or teaming with microbes (like me) to start?

She is doing a disservice to composting by perverting what compost is and should be. The reason I call what she makes "ACT-compost" is she is composting for microbes to make ACT and her compost method, and that of TWM doesn't talk about how there should be no recognizable material left in the pile, nor that the moisture content NEEDS to be 45-65% AT ALL TIMES. Nor that it's GOOD to let compost go into the "hyperthermophilic" range of ~160-175'F; that last tidbit is not known by many, but it's a fact it increases the beak down of lignin and hence increases humus and the overall quality of the compost in terms of carbon bioavailability to theromphilic and mesophilic microbes.

She and TWM do not even get C:N ratio correct, i.e. TWM cites 25-30 as ideal, but it is not, 30-35 is ideal. Less than 28 is no good, it can work but it's not what we want. And nowhere in TWM do they list the C:N ratio of feedstocks, so how pray tell is one to calcaute the C:N if only reading TWM?

A MUCH better book for composting (which still has it's fair share of erros) is the "The Rodale Book of Composting: Easy Methods for Every Gardener" (link)

TWM and Dr. Ingham like to say you need about 50% brown to 50% green matter, and that is BS. That doesn't take into account C:N, nor moisture content which has a HUGE effect upon C:N.

They also like to say you should pile the "layers" of green and brown in 4-6" layers, but that's total BS, that's the old "Indore" method of composting. We need and want to mix the whole pile VERY well, no layering!

She and TWM also make claims about pH which are not accurate at all. We want the starting pile pH to be 5.5-7; and then the microbes control pH with a flux, it first goes down, and then it goes up (in general). We don't want pH over about 7.5 as it reduces the "nitrogen reclamation" a great deal once pH exceeds about 8.

Also TWM claims we shouldn't use feedstocks with inorganic fertilizer or pesticides, but that's not AT ALL true. Sure, for the average person we don't want pesticides, but composting is a method to REMOVE pesticdes, etc, this is a huge field of science. And in fact, using inorganic N is a FINE method to raise C:N is one can't get it correct with only feedstocks. This is all proven scientific theory...

Not only that but TWM claims "a compost pile requires a minimum amount of mass, about 3.5 feet square"; however, that is not correct, a minimum of 3 CUBIC feet is needed. And neither TWM no Elaine mention Bulk Density which should at start be about 700-1,000 per cubic yard, a little higher is OK (see this link for info on how to find the BD of a PROPOERLLY mixed compost pile).

And this quote from TWM shows how little they and Elaine understand about composting. The "end result" is not about the microbial makeup as I already wrote. And also, the numbers TWM and Elaine cite for 'good' compost is BS, there is NO proven scientific theory showing we need X number of bacteria, archea, fungi, etc. The FACT is we want them all to be present, but no one knows (as of yet) how many are ideal, that is why much of the testing done by SFI is BS, if the compost doesn’t hold the numbers Elaine claims she states the compost isn't 'good'...yea right! (we add feestock to ACT so we increase the number of micobes; thus the starting number is not really imporant)

TWM wrote:

The end result is compost, however, and as long as it contains the proper set of organisms, it doesn’t matter which system you use

...

This is a quote from the book pg.126 last paragraph

How do you know you have good compost? Test it....If it smells bad like vomit or putrefying vinger..thenit should not be used...You know what fresh soil should smell like ; good compost should smell "clean" aswell"

Wow rocket science.[/quote]

THAT IS NOT how one should test compost to qualify it as "good compost", what I wrote about is how one tests compost, by sending it in for assays to a soil lab for about $100.

And further, the testing done by SFI is bunk in some regards when she incorrectly claims one must plate out protozoa! Plate out my ass! Direct Microscopic Enumeration is the way to go. For more info on the BS by SFI and Elaine I would suggest you read the writings of our own MM: http://microbeorganics.com/#Tests_Observations


So, was that a good enough explanation?

 

[grapeman]

Smoke some weed already!

LOL I don't smoke. Just love to grow things and trying to learn this organic thing.

 

[mad librettist]

Yes I did, I wrote the woody crap she calls compost is not compost. The definition of compost IS NOT its microbial makeup. The definition of good compost is its level of "maturity", its level of humus (ala Luebke Humus Score, MidWest Biosystems Humus Score, etc), the elemental levels of sulfur, nitrites, pH, etc.

definitive characteristics are not to be confused with the qualitative.

Compost comes from the same latin words as composite. It just means putting stuff together to let nature turn it into something add to soil.

We can agree or disagree over quality. We can argue over definitions. But we should not use one to discredit the other.