Teaming with Microbes: The Organic Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web

[VerdantGreen]

good post grapeman, i was lucky that the clay soil in my garden had obviously been worked since the 30's when my house was built - but having been under lawn for some years it was heavily compacted. by digging it over and leaving the big clods of earth exposed overwinter the frost gets to work breaking them down into tilth, i could also add copious amounts of organic matter to the topsoil and break up the subsoil - again adding organic matter to inprove drainage - i cant see how any no dig technique could replace all of that tbh - no worms in the subsoil to carry organic mater into it.
i would agree sandy soil is less work and easier up to a point - but i see a lot more deficiencies in sandy soil than in clay.
working my way through the book - its a good read

VG.

 

[mad librettist]

VG why not break the subsoil with targetted weeds?

Burdock would bust right through for instance.

Plants can be very strong in ways we don't expect. Ever mix up concrete with beans and let it sit? They will break it apart as they germinate. No joke.

 

[NUG-JUG]

Hey VG my house was built in the 20's and I have heavily compacted clay soil too. The last year I've been trying to follow the tips the book gives on restoring your yard organically. ML I read too that clay soil is extremely good once you finally do break it up. I planted rye grass where it's the worst (most compact), and it seems to be improving albeit slowly..

 

[mad librettist]

Slow and steady wins the race!

I would probably make a Chinese style raised bed to keep my table green while I worked the rest.


Gotta love that rye.

 

[VerdantGreen]

well, im sure digging will be detrimental in the short term to soil life, but after a year or two i would have thought it would recover and tbh i grew crops in mine straight away and they were fine. i s'pose some plant roots would penetrate into it but i think the effect would be minimal compared to physically breaking up the subsoil - which is clay that you could throw pots with. just to be clear i am only advocating a once-only dig to get the soil into shape - then dont tread on it and you wont hav eto dig again for many years!
i find that organic ecosystems take a couple of years to establish with beneficial insects etc anyway so im quite happy to take the rough with the smooth when it comes to digging heavy soils - and even with sandy soils pans can form in quite localised places and if you didnt dig it you would never know.

NUG-JUG - do an experiment - mark out a small bed, say 4x8 foot and double dig it adding plenty of compost (hard work) - see how this fares compared to a no dig approach - i would be interested to see how you get on.

 

[NUG-JUG]

Yea the rye is flourishing! Luckily my yard hasn't had a synthetic nutrient on it in years so I'm ahead in that regard. A raised bed is what I'm planning on building here soon. Also I'm going to have cold and hot compost piles. Hopefully I'll entice some wrigglers into my yard and out of my neighbor's salty chemical hell. lol

 

[NUG-JUG]

VG- I'm not against a one time dig either since this one area is so bad it's like cement. the rye hasn't spread to part of the area and that's probably where I can do the experiment your talking about. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[mad librettist]

Vg I don't think it's the bugs that take time or the bacteria. But fungi can take decades.

This idea I must admit is still hard for me to accept.

I think your experiment might be a bit short term for testing a strategy meant to sacrifice short term gain for long term reward.


I wish I had some clay soil to raise! Lol nobody says that.

Nug- there is a machine you can rent that will pull a bunch of plugs from your soil. Not sure how deep they go, but apparently it's the best of both worlds.

 

[NUG-JUG]

I wish I had some clay soil to raise! Lol nobody says that.

Nug- there is a machine you can rent that will pull a bunch of plugs from your soil. Not sure how deep they go, but apparently it's the best of both worlds.

lol It might sound crazy but I'm looking forward to the whole process too. Is that machine different than standard aeration?

 

[mad librettist]

It is vastly different. Standard aeration with spikes is useless. The gap created is always achieved via compacting surrounding material.

 

[NUG-JUG]

Oh so standard aeration is basically smashing holes into already compact soil? That sucks..Well I'll just take the money I was going to spend on doing that and find a plug puller.

 

[VerdantGreen]

Vg I don't think it's the bugs that take time or the bacteria. But fungi can take decades.

This idea I must admit is still hard for me to accept.

I think your experiment might be a bit short term for testing a strategy meant to sacrifice short term gain for long term reward.


I wish I had some clay soil to raise! Lol nobody says that.

Nug- there is a machine you can rent that will pull a bunch of plugs from your soil. Not sure how deep they go, but apparently it's the best of both worlds.

isnt a microbe dominated soil (rather than fungal dominated) preferable for raising most crops though? - thats what i read in the book.
also, if the fungi were established in the first place then why is the soil so poor and compacted??

VG

 

[mad librettist]

They are established up top I think, and just need some help getting down?

Fungi are as important in veggie soil, lawns, etc...

Like a wolf pack, dominance and importance are not the same.


But I hear you vg, and I am quick to speak of plug puller thingies. Have your cake, no dig cake, and eat it too. Me? I am obsessed with the weeds thing so I would beat that horse beyond death until I give up and dig.

 

[herbaholic]

Well I just started a garden from scratch and I had to dig it up, sandy loam, and am about to go get amendments. I started reading the book on Google Books and have already learned a lot! My sandy loam is testing alkaline so I'm assuming a higher bacteria content?

I was planning on amending with some aged cow manure and compost and watering with teas throughout the season. Started an EMC tea in rain water hoping to jump start life.

While I was digging my neighbor came outside and we got to talking. He told me that the clay is four feet below the surface.

 

[mad librettist]

Don't forget the mulch!

 

[grapeman]

Stop adding gypsum! Maybe give "weeds: guardians of the soil" a read.

It's a false friend that fucks you in the end. Like heroin.

I hear you. I have mostly worked with sandy soil. You chuck some seeds and they grow.

But Jesus, does it ever drink. Water water water. Take away the irrigation and in most areas you are done for. Unless, that is, you have built it up well.

There is a reason neither clay nor sand are called "ideal". And I guess the grass always is greener on the other loam.

I guess what I am saying, and maybe not clearly enough above, is given a choice, I'd rather start building a soil from sand then from clay.

Also, while gypsum may not be ideal, in the competitive world that is farming (one of the last true supply and demand markets that our fucked up government has not pissed on yet), cost is the over riding factor. In our small pots or back yards we can truly use cadillac options to build soils, especially with the high cash value of this crop. Try doing that with wheat, alfalfa citrus or row crops on a section of ground and the bank will quickly own your property. While I appreciate the book recommendation, there is a difference between book knowledge and practical cultural practices on a scale with which one can make a living.

 

[xmobotx]

w/ no-till, wouldn't it be a good 4+ years before you could make any accurate comparisons to a double dug bed? i think the double dug would out-perform at first. But, the no-till should catch up then exceed - no?

I would probably make a Chinese style raised bed to keep my table green while I worked the rest.

help me out here? chinese style raised bed? would that be building up on top of undeveloped soil?

and, yeah - mulch is key. i used to read a woman who strip-composted; no pile, all the compostables get strewn out over the garden -maybe raked in. this was a no-till approach where the composting went on right on top of the garden soil -so, her "mulch" was active compost.

she left the garden un-cleand/un-disturbed over winter then knocked stuff down and pulled mulch aside to plant.

 

[mad librettist]

By Chinese style I mean it's a kind of big mound. Raised bed without walls I guess. Kinda neat you get sunny sides and shady sides.

 

[xmobotx]

wow, that's basically what i do - although i have one w/ concrete edges (no i dont prefer that)

trying to get an early start but the first successions aren't quite taking just yet

 

[NUG-JUG]

While I appreciate the book recommendation, there is a difference between book knowledge and practical cultural practices on a scale with which one can make a living.

Grapeman this sounds a lot like the reasons given by monsanto, and big agri-business to why the local, sustainable food model is not practical. When in reality it is the energy intensive way of industrial agriculture that is quickly becoming impractical as oil is depleted. So I think this "book knowledge" about teaming with microbes is THE ONLY practical way to sustain ourselves into the future.

Peace, NJ