Kaneh
Member
please accept my apologies for the above comment.
i know that you americans take your microbes very seriously.
- 'cos its the only culture you've got
later
V.
Did everyone miss this?
Your merciless V.
LOL
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Teaming with Microbes: The Organic Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
- Thread starter JuneBugJoe
- Start date
Did everyone miss this?
Your merciless V.
LOL
Zendo
Member
I was the same way. Here's the thing..
The soil settles and makes this community that is functioning and cycling in harmony. We then come along, and turn it upside down and disturb the harmony that nature developed. It then has to go about rebuilding the 'system', and once again, we come along, and turn it on it's head.
If I were you, I would add organic compost, manure's, biochar, EWC, mycorrhizal fungi, etc.. mix it in, and then from that point on, see if you can't just feed it from the top down. I have the same dilemma this year, and this will be the last time I use a fork to turn under my garden. I have a few rows that I haven't turned under in a couple years, and have solid results with those. I started switching over slowly, as I too was once nervous about not forking under my garden every year.
After that , I'll just feed with compost, compost teas, or soil dressings.
YMMV
if you double dig your soil once, by hand, and then never stand on it - you can just top dress/mulch and tickle the top few inches with a fork for many years to come.
VG.
VG.
tilling has it's place but, but I am clueless it's uses in a pot or container.
that's nice VG, but how about good soil that can handle some foot traffic and still stay spongy, because it is supported by roots, hyphae, etc... all from the inside.
depends on your soil really, my native soil is heavy clay and i try not to stand on it at all. i dont touch it unless its been dry for a few days - and its great soil, i dont realy feed it except for with compost. sandy soil is fine to stand on a bit unless it's wet. i prefer permanent 4ft wide beds and paths. planting crops in long rows and walking between each row only started about 100 years ago when jethro tull invented an automatic seed sowing machine i think.
finally warming up in the UK - very late spring. yay.
I think the claim is that clay soil takes more work to get started, but in the end is even better once it's fully penetrated and colonized.
I don't know though. I have never had clay soil so don't really know shit. But as i read the book, I remember all kinds of things I've already seen happen, and feel I understand better.
The point they make is that when you destroy what networks exist and break apart aggregates created by bacteria, you get a short term gain and long term pain. Although at least by hand you avoid making hardpan.
There is an interesting device that pulls a whole buttload of cores out, which is supposed to be much healthier.
I don't know though. I have never had clay soil so don't really know shit. But as i read the book, I remember all kinds of things I've already seen happen, and feel I understand better.
The point they make is that when you destroy what networks exist and break apart aggregates created by bacteria, you get a short term gain and long term pain. Although at least by hand you avoid making hardpan.
There is an interesting device that pulls a whole buttload of cores out, which is supposed to be much healthier.
U
unthing
What about those things that aerate golf-fields and such? Shooting soil with water to make holes.
yeah im looking forward to the book. im into buying some EM this spring too.
but getting organic matter right down into the subsoil?, when you double dig you are often getting down to subsoil that has no humus in it, and you get a chance to change that - make the topsoil deeper.
but getting organic matter right down into the subsoil?, when you double dig you are often getting down to subsoil that has no humus in it, and you get a chance to change that - make the topsoil deeper.
I get you VG, but apparently you can get organisms to do the work for you. I'd jump for joy if you had a test patch...
Now EM is interesting. I doubt it's covered in the book. 2ndtry and others argue there is some aerobic bias due to the power of Dr. Ingham. But in this very book there is a sample soil analysis from her company stating that materials from anaerobic conditions inside aggregates diffuses outwards it encounters aerobic conditions.
But EM is anaerobic organisms no one could consider unfriendly. While it is not yet touted by the compost tea crowd, I believe my own eyes when I see what bokashi does to worm counts.
Your EM may or may not contain actinomycetes, which is supposed to be the real winner when it comes to creating drainage and water retention at the same time.
Trichgnomes
Member
I too would love to see a test patch. I'm a bit on the fence on this issue, but in theory, I agree with ML. Although, I know of some very respected people in the field (Gevens sp?) do double dig their raised beds every few years.
Interesting, mad. As noted in the EM thread, After two applications over the span of 3 months, I noticed a huge improvement in my drainage/water retention. My culture however, (SCD- Probio-plus) does not contain actinomycetes. Don't want to get too off topic here, though, as mad pointed out, these authors aren't exactly the anaerobe crowd, per say. If anyone wishes to continue discussion, give the EM thread a bump!
trich it's just rumor, but apparently the label on EM products is not all-inclusive or accurate.
Could be you do have them.
And I have noticed the same effect on soil and water retention, but really my drainage needed no improvement lol. Sometimes I feel I am gardening at the beach.
Also, I sprayed our raspberries last year and despite the weather avoided moldy berries. I got sick of them!
Could be you do have them.
And I have noticed the same effect on soil and water retention, but really my drainage needed no improvement lol. Sometimes I feel I am gardening at the beach.
Also, I sprayed our raspberries last year and despite the weather avoided moldy berries. I got sick of them!
If I'm not mistaken, I believe I read in Teaming With Microbers that if you let an Aerated Compost Tea brew for about 4 days it would be nothing but protozoa. It may have been a tea brewed with alfalfa particularly. Just a little interestin' tidbit that got stuck in the cobwebs of my brainium, and that I don't think I've seen before on these boards. Would be a fun lil trial for people that can't check their protozoan content with microscopes (I'm assuming this is the majority but then again maybe everyone has one and I'm the shoobie who doesn't?
) to splash some protozoa soup on your plants and see if it improves your set.
i got no microscope!
Not sure what you mean though. Protozoans are higher up on the food chain. It's like locking dogs up with a whole lotta dirty dishes in a gigantic room for 5 years. I mean enough dirty dishes to feed them. And a really massive room. And the dogs can reproduce by division
Not sure what you mean though. Protozoans are higher up on the food chain. It's like locking dogs up with a whole lotta dirty dishes in a gigantic room for 5 years. I mean enough dirty dishes to feed them. And a really massive room. And the dogs can reproduce by division
I was just thinking... iunno what if your soil has way too much bacteria and needs the protozoa police force to set things straight.
oh i see. In that case, no need to add a bunch of protozoa monoculture. Just adding the balanced tea or even top dressing compost will provide enough, and the smorgasbord in your soil does the rest.
Come to think of it, it's not just that you only get protozoa if you brew to much. They eat each other too, so your diversity takes a nose dive.
Come to think of it, it's not just that you only get protozoa if you brew to much. They eat each other too, so your diversity takes a nose dive.
EatMoGrass
Member
Interesting to know that others besides my self have actually read the book. I bought this book back in '07 soon after I began worming. I immediately knew that this was the single most important gardening book I had ever read. Over the last 3 years I have tried to get friends and family to read this book. Every single person I have loaned the book out to has given it back saying they had no interest in reading past the first chapter. At least I always got the book back. I was also just told a little late that the author Jeff Lowenfels was just here in town last weekend giving a seminar. I missed out.
If someone dislikes part 1, maybe tell them to start with part 2. Then curiosity may send them to part 1.
Everyone is different. Personally, I could have used a longer part 1. But even as a kid I preferred David attenborough to cartoons. Show me a cartoon that demonstrates a jealous cuckolded songbird pecking at his mate's vagina to get his rivals sperm to come out. Awesome!
Everyone is different. Personally, I could have used a longer part 1. But even as a kid I preferred David attenborough to cartoons. Show me a cartoon that demonstrates a jealous cuckolded songbird pecking at his mate's vagina to get his rivals sperm to come out. Awesome!
You are correct that a clay or heavy loam soil takes more work to "get started" as you say, but I'll differ with your conclusion.
But I'll weigh in here and state from experience outside the "planting in containers" world, that a sandy soil, while lacking in many if not all beneficials, is much easier to grow in and is a much better starting point in both the short and long run. It is like a blank canvas which onto you may paint your masterpiece via amendments et al.. Drainage being the big key.
Planting in Heavy soils on the other hand is limiting to a large number of crops and require a "never ending" fight to grow with requiring never ending treatments just to maintain a less then ideal status quo. After decades of growing in both sandy soils and heavy clay/loamy soils, I have mostly ranches with sandy soils that take little or no additional soil amendments other then a compost application every year while the heavy soils are still requiring continuous applications of gypsum and others materials just for water penetration which is a pain in the ass and limiting O2 in the soil.
Stop adding gypsum! Maybe give "weeds: guardians of the soil" a read.
It's a false friend that fucks you in the end. Like heroin.
I hear you. I have mostly worked with sandy soil. You chuck some seeds and they grow.
But Jesus, does it ever drink. Water water water. Take away the irrigation and in most areas you are done for. Unless, that is, you have built it up well.
There is a reason neither clay nor sand are called "ideal". And I guess the grass always is greener on the other loam.
It's a false friend that fucks you in the end. Like heroin.
I hear you. I have mostly worked with sandy soil. You chuck some seeds and they grow.
But Jesus, does it ever drink. Water water water. Take away the irrigation and in most areas you are done for. Unless, that is, you have built it up well.
There is a reason neither clay nor sand are called "ideal". And I guess the grass always is greener on the other loam.
