sterile females are the future!

[GrandpaMillenial]

Interesting thread. I was actually wondering about sterile plants lately, because I pollinated a couple of moms a few weeks back, and while one of them is full of seeds, the other only seems to have a few. Maybe 200 vs 20 or something like that.
View attachment 18752305

The one on the left is a homemade og kush cross by a friend. The one on the right is maple leaf. They are both in 2L pots and flowering under a 50w led. They were pollinated by the same Lebanese male, at the same time.

Sterile plants are news to me lol, but of course if animals and people can be sterile, why not plants as well. Maybe they "identify" as asexual? You know how kids are nowadays. Next thing you know there will be gender fluid plants as well xD

What flavours/smells do you get from that maple leaf? I heard they can sometimes have coffee and carmel.

 

[GrandpaMillenial]

While aneuploid/polyploid is deadly for humans it is well tolerated in plants paying a big role in speciation and survival in New environments.

Hops are known to contain chromosome abnormalities resulting in non mendelian inheritance.

Sterile females provide complete control over the growing environment without the restrictions sensimilla production demands. Secondary metabolites-terpenes and cannabinoids- have 2 types- constant and induced.

Thus far only constant have been used even though induced secondary metabolites provide greater diversity improved quality/quantity .some induced terpenes are not present at all in non stressed plants.

The most powerful and pungent metabolites have big pre cursor/energy expenditures so the plant only synthesizes when "attacked"

the risk of using induced stress tactics with cannabis is that the stress will also cause hermi pollen to be produced by the plant as a survival response

. So while sensimilla is superior to seeded bud, sensi is inferior when compared to the ancestral profile .reqson being if the challenges/threats are eliminated to avoid hermi pollen. This friendly temperate outdoor or indoor environment results in the best parts of ancestral line being silenced.

Stress induction methods downside is when the method causes a female to hermi and throw pollen.. however pollen can't create seend in a sterile female. So, With the pollen threat neutralized, it opens up whole new world of induced superior profiles/diversity.

. Examples of induction techniques-

Using methyl jasmonate fed to the plant. MJ is the most powerful alarm compound the plant uses as a messenger to organs which start producing jnduced terpenes after a threat is detected.

Chitin present in insect frass. Mixed in media or even rez/foliar. The ground up insect exoskeleton simulates bug attack to plant

Nematodes cause obstruction of transpiration leading to big increase in delta carene

Physical damage to stems.. plant creates oleoresins such as frankincense in response. many ganja producing populations use damage such as cracking puncturing etc to commenc oleoresin production. For frank this means drilling hole in trunk and letting resin dry

Fungi fighting induced compounds are best example. Tropical plants need to guard against humidity pressure and fungal infestation. This means High lignin walls to keep moisture out and swift response when an open wound gets a fungal infection. This induction method involves culturing the fungi known to induce best for particular species and then exposing lady to it.
Agarwood is most expensive incense in world costing more $ per ounce then even gold. Only produces the incense compounds when infected with fungi in a wound.

In the wild not all qgarwood trees produce the incense compounds. Since it's so valuable this led to research of additives which could make all trees produce agarwood both synthetic induction signals or actual fungi damage. This suite of methods is called agar whit

I think this would be a great option for many growers. Are the plants a genetic dead end? yes.

basically a seed seller would have to maintain a diploid and tetraploid pair to produce this triploid seed.

So ideally you’d want triploid female seeds. As long as these are not also autoflowers then a clone mother could be maintained and the grower would have sterile feminized seed.

This would be good for the grower who just wants to produce buds. The grower who now wants to maintain his own seed stock should look elsewhere.

Initially it does sound like a monsanto wet dream but i can buy seedless watermelon seed and i can buy regular watermelon seed.

 

[Nannymouse]

The florists like the sterile sunflowers very much. With those, the flower is 'all petals' and no seeds, and they are great for arrangements. I can see the applications for sterile Cannabis.

And we've gotten the best seedless watermelons, this year. Definitely improved over the years.

 

[xet]

With the pollen threat neutralized, it opens up whole new world of induced superior profiles/diversity.

I see exactly what you mean and personally the idea makes me sick to my stomach.

How is this not a shortcut for our presently imperfect quality and control breeding standards?

Rather than deplanting the plant: synthesize the oils en masse in a controlled lab.

 

[Piff_cat]

I see exactly what you mean and personally the idea makes me sick to my stomach.

How is this not a shortcut for our presently imperfect quality and control breeding standards?

Rather than deplanting the plant: synthesize the oils en masse in a controlled lab.

funny thing is these are all methods pulled directly from real science breeder think of it as a further step of selection.we are forcing the plant to ignore an abstain from the only thing it cares about doing. this seedless modification is the largest stress on the gene pool.
the freaks and ugliest are always the best bud...talk about landrace diversity, its actually sensimilla process thats needs to be improved.

only stable non herm parent plants are used in a landrace repo at least 40 percent of favorable alleles are discarded off top. the male side especially because all the unstable/monocious males will be the oldest alleles. monocious is how they all dioceious plants started. all those Y chromosomes in the mix. all males can be evaluted as possible sires leading to maximum line breedingl male and female profiles within types are not all the same. especially true with se asian males or any plant that makes rare cannabinoids. the only sure way to keep the diveristy is to use as much of the germplasm as possible

 

[xet]

funny thing is these are all methods pulled directly from real science breeder think of it as a further step of selection.we are forcing the plant to ignore an abstain from the only thing it cares about doing. this seedless modification is the largest stress on the gene pool.
the freaks and ugliest are always the best bud...talk about landrace diversity, its actually sensimilla process thats needs to be improved.

only stable non herm parent plants are used in a landrace repo at least 40 percent of favorable alleles are discarded off top. the male side especially because all the unstable/monocious males will be the oldest alleles. monocious is how they all dioceious plants started. all those Y chromosomes in the mix. all males can be evaluted as possible sires leading to maximum line breedingl male and female profiles within types are not all the same. especially true with se asian males or any plant that makes rare cannabinoids. the only sure way to keep the diveristy is to use as much of the germplasm as possible

It could be that I am tired but this is what I hear:

We want mutant hens who no longer produce eggs.

We keep the pool of egg layers and a separate room of mutants.

A definite clash of philosophy can arise at this point.

Let us presume for now this is not the case.

Although it is really difficult to not address the pink elephant in the room: "Why intentionally pursue sterile mutants whose allure could become such an addiction that we turn our back on our egg-layers for a moment and the entire species could end along with our love for this plant as we know it?"

So if the object then is to get the meat because we don't want eggs then why not synthesize the meat instead of jeopardizing the flock?

Or is there sufficient confidence to not worry about jeopardizing the flock?

Or are mutations, primarily the cause of viroids, really that much superior to the mysterious perfections we find in non-mutants?

In the grand scheme of parametric variation how much room is there for mutation really?

 

[Cerathule]

"Triploidy in plants
In some plant groups, triploidy is not uncommon, triploid plants can arise, for example, when a pollen from a tetraploid plant reaches the flower of a diploid plant (or vice versa). The germ cells of the diploid plant (2n) are haploid , those of the tetraploid plant (4n) are diploid (2n). So a triploid (3n) descendant is created. Triploid chromosome sets often lead to irregularities during meiosis. Many triploid plants are therefore unable to form seeds themselves. Examples are cultivated varieties of pineapple, the dessert banana, saffron and the seedless grapes, but also potatoes and watermelon and apple (Boskop)."

Triploidie – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

 

[revegeta666]

What flavours/smells do you get from that maple leaf? I heard they can sometimes have coffee and carmel.

Dont get me started on gender fluidity lol, they kicked me off reddit because I could define a female.

Mostly hashy, spicy and fresh, with a touch of sour fruit like green apples. No caramel in my opinion but that would make sense because sweet seeds have a strain that is called Cream Caramel which is basically just a reversed maple leaf clone.

 

[funkyhorse]

"Triploidy in plants
In some plant groups, triploidy is not uncommon, triploid plants can arise, for example, when a pollen from a tetraploid plant reaches the flower of a diploid plant (or vice versa). The germ cells of the diploid plant (2n) are haploid , those of the tetraploid plant (4n) are diploid (2n). So a triploid (3n) descendant is created. Triploid chromosome sets often lead to irregularities during meiosis. Many triploid plants are therefore unable to form seeds themselves. Examples are cultivated varieties of pineapple, the dessert banana, saffron and the seedless grapes, but also potatoes and watermelon and apple (Boskop)."

Triploidie – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

Sometimes it is difficult to agree with science ethics and quality of science products, at least for marihuana
Starting with this problem science calls hemp and marihuana with the same name cannabis sativa, all this mix can only lead to degradation of the quality of the product, no wonder degraded sativa genetics is all I see over the commercial canna world
I had this autumm many triploid hazes. So it seems I received in my pack of hazes from MadMac some tetraploid males, because otherwise how can I have so many triploids???
All the triploid girls I dusted made seed. All of them no exceptions

I guess science didnt study enough ganja triploids or maybe science is studying it with hemp and wants to apply it to marihuana because science calls both of them cannabis sativa.
Same like studying deseases on mouses and applying results on people and results not really matching right? Hemp is not marihuana and mice are not human beings
Maybe science can find proper naming for both hemp and marihuana??
Any drug lover knows more about drugs than science. Science loves hierarchy, prestige, power and signing papers, no matter how scientific those papers are or if those papers have empirical evidence or not, the important thing for scientists today is to sign papers, all Egotrip and fuck science and empirical evidence
These triploids have no productivity at all, it is just freaks and not necessarily all freaks are better. I am having plenty of freaks to check. I might concede that one freak might be outstanding but from what I see here, this is very far from all freaks being outstanding

You can see the seed in one of my triploids, all of the triploids I dusted made seed. I doubt if I ever will grow this seed, I am not looking for extreme expressions but for top marihuana entheogenic quality.

Is this happening because outdoors genetics are being bred indoors?
Are there any real scientific papers studying inbreeding depresion on outdoor cannabis sativa be it hemp or marihuana with empirical evidence?

 

[Grojak]

when I first learned of fem seeds, I was furious, taking away the ability to reproduce. Plants that can’t be bred too is just crazy.

The idea that having a sterile female will allow folks to run exotic, untamed landraces is absurd. I don’t see The person growing out sterile females plants as the market for landrace or 100 day flowering plants.

 

[Mudballs2.0]

Sometimes it is difficult to agree with science ethics and quality of science products, at least for marihuana
Starting with this problem science calls hemp and marihuana with the same name cannabis sativa, all this mix can only lead to degradation of the quality of the product, no wonder degraded sativa genetics is all I see over the commercial canna world
I had this autumm many triploid hazes. So it seems I received in my pack of hazes from MadMac some tetraploid males, because otherwise how can I have so many triploids???
All the triploid girls I dusted made seed. All of them no exceptions

I guess science didnt study enough ganja triploids or maybe science is studying it with hemp and wants to apply it to marihuana because science calls both of them cannabis sativa.
Same like studying deseases on mouses and applying results on people and results not really matching right? Hemp is not marihuana and mice are not human beings
Maybe science can find proper naming for both hemp and marihuana??
Any drug lover knows more about drugs than science. Science loves hierarchy, prestige, power and signing papers, no matter how scientific those papers are or if those papers have empirical evidence or not, the important thing for scientists today is to sign papers, all Egotrip and fuck science and empirical evidence
These triploids have no productivity at all, it is just freaks and not necessarily all freaks are better. I am having plenty of freaks to check. I might concede that one freak might be outstanding but from what I see here, this is very far from all freaks being outstanding
View attachment 18755601 View attachment 18755600

You can see the seed in one of my triploids, all of the triploids I dusted made seed. I doubt if I ever will grow this seed, I am not looking for extreme expressions but for top marihuana entheogenic quality.
View attachment 18755602

Is this happening because outdoors genetics are being bred indoors?
Are there any real scientific papers studying inbreeding depresion on outdoor cannabis sativa be it hemp or marihuana with empirical evidence?

to call them triploid means they have 3 full sets of chromosomes, and we can't prove that without genetic testing. All we can say for certain, without further testing, is your plants have an extra branching gene, and that makes them trisomic aneuploid.
aneuploid= the condition of having an abnormal number of chromosomes
trisomic= In trisomy, there is an extra chromosome. A common trisomy is Down syndrome (trisomy 21).
triploids are generally sterile due to the inability to create a full diploid zygote but trifoliates have no reproduction limitations, they just dont make more trifoliates consistently...it's better to call these 3 branch plants trifoliates, i learned the hard way.
Aneuploidy is the presence of an abnormal number of chromosomes in a cell. There is an extra chromosome present in this case. Polyploidy is the presence of the extra set of the chromosome in the cells.
the hanging point is whether or not it's a full chromosome set or just extra or missing chromosomes.

 

[Cvh]

@funkyhorse That's not a triploid what you have there, that's a trifoliate aka whorled phyllotaxy mutation.

The terms triploid and trifoliate are always getting mixed up online on forums and blogs,...etc.

It's almost impossible to identify a triploid with the naked eye, they look almost identical to a regular plant.

Check out this thread if you want more info about polyploidy (ie. Triploids). There are even several pictures posted of confirmed triploid plants (check all the pages).

New study about polyploid

NEW STUDY ON POLYPLOID For those whom don't know us, we are Buddha Seeds; a Spanish seed bank focused on the research and development of cannabis strains. We are especially well-known for our autoflowering varieties. We have been interested in polyploid for a long time since, it´s supposed...

www.icmag.com

 

[Cerathule]

"Trikotylie" (ger) is it correctly (3 cotyledons)

 

[Mudballs2.0]

@funkyhorse That's not a triploid what you have there, that's a trifoliate aka whorled phyllotaxy mutation.

The terms triploid and trifoliate are always getting mixed up online on forums and blogs,...etc.

It's almost impossible to identify a triploid with the naked eye, they look almost identical to a regular plant.

Check out this thread if you want more info about polyploidy (ie. Triploids). There are even several pictures posted of confirmed triploid plants (check all the pages).

New study about polyploid

NEW STUDY ON POLYPLOID For those whom don't know us, we are Buddha Seeds; a Spanish seed bank focused on the research and development of cannabis strains. We are especially well-known for our autoflowering varieties. We have been interested in polyploid for a long time since, it´s supposed...

www.icmag.com

You cant say (shouldn't say?) emphatically his plant is not a triploid. It can have 3 branches and be a triploid. I only commented that it is safer to run in public saying trifoliate when we have no clinical proof of its genetic make up.
It can have 2 branches and be a triploid...did you know capulators MAC1 is a natural triploid?

 

[Cvh]

Yes and as I said there's (almost) no visual clue to identify a triploid. 3 sets of leaves are a trifoliate aka whorled phyllotaxy mutation not a triploid. A trifoliate could indeed also potentially be a triploid, that's true....

 

[Cvh]

@Piff_cat what's your response on that @Sam_Skunkman claims that triploid Cannabis is not sterile? See screenshot.

 

[funkyhorse]

Thank you very much for teaching guys
At Sam's thread I was taught these are triploids
I quote the posts from Sam's thread
Posts 6236 and Piff answer to it 6237 from page 312
At a previous post at that thread I explained I never studied botany and I copied at the exams
Have a nice week everyone

Ohz the next generation
These girls are 5 and 6 weeks from the day they showed first pistil
All these mutants have been born tri
This phenomena is coming from one of the males of the Seedsman Hz x Ohz90 cross
It seems males are dominant in haze crosses. I had the same phenomena in the progeny of the NL5xH F4 x same boys and I will probably find it in some of the seed made last year
Seedsman Hz BX II This is Seedsman Hz july pheno girl 3 x (Seedsman Hz x Ohz90)
Plant is 2,5 meters tall
View attachment 18711735 View attachment 18711736
Seedsman Haze X ohz90 girl 9 F2
She is 2,8 meters tall
View attachment 18711737 View attachment 18711738
Pachamama Haze F2
Top shot
View attachment 18711739
Lower
View attachment 18711740
This is Pachamama Haze now, she is a cut from the second best girl coming from MadMac's Seedman Hz x Ohz90 cross
This is the first time I see such difference from cut and from seed. If the cut is a couple of months old I didnt experience this difference I am seeing this year. The cuts kept from last year are going much much faster than all the rest, even they showed first pistils at the same time as sisters and daughters
View attachment 18711743 View attachment 18711744
Pachamama Haze 2, second cut from last year
View attachment 18711741 View attachment 18711742
Have a nice week everybody

really nice work! i would take those triploids and hit them with your favorite male. what your seeing is a result of sex chromosome aneuploidy, the same phenomenon that led to ojds freak male from haze a g13 x gsc. when the extra chromosome/part of chromosome involved with the aneuploidy condition resides on the y chromosome it throws off the gene dosage and creates more males. your triploids are the result of additive traits in both plants in pedigree combining gene copy numbers to make a full 3rd set. take a microscope and look at the stomatas on those and a regular plant. you should see larger stomata on the triploids. if you hit them with a diploid it will create a hybrid swarm. a way more extreme f2 pheno spread.

 

[Cerathule]

So what kind of plants came out of crosses with the so-called "fertile" triploids?

 

[Cvh]

I have been wanting for years an answer to that question. My bet would be diploids considering the theory in the below screenshot if they could divide into haploid gametes. (But I know little about the subject and might be wrong.)

But I have never seen anyone posting lab results of what comes from crosses made with fertile triploids...

 

[Piff_cat]

It could be that I am tired but this is what I hear:

We want mutant hens who no longer produce eggs.

We keep the pool of egg layers and a separate room of mutants.

A definite clash of philosophy can arise at this point.

Let us presume for now this is not the case.

Although it is really difficult to not address the pink elephant in the room: "Why intentionally pursue sterile mutants whose allure could become such an addiction that we turn our back on our egg-layers for a moment and the entire species could end along with our love for this plant as we know it?"

So if the object then is to get the meat because we don't want eggs then why not synthesize the meat instead of jeopardizing the flock?

Or is there sufficient confidence to not worry about jeopardizing the flock?

Or are mutations, primarily the cause of viroids, really that much superior to the mysterious perfections we find in non-mutants?

In the grand scheme of parametric variation how much room is there for mutation really?

i think nev said it best here.... wish he was still around
.sentimentality is cool but progress is better.a well organized collective to put true cannabis in anyones hands who wants to grow it is the kryptonite for big pharma.

​

Jan 5, 2011

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• #310

My purpose with this thread is to help people with their breeding. IMO the best way to increase quality and diversity is to have lots of people breeding their own variants of the best lines available. We all have our own way of doing things. I'm not suggesting that my way is the only way. It's the end product that counts. One plant can change the world.

As far as I'm concerned, any tool that gets me where I want to go is a valid tool. I've found that intensive inbreeding followed by line breeding to be very effective. A study of pedigrees of other species where pedigrees are kept, also proves this to be the case. Many people choose the route of endless outcrossing and also have their successes.
All matings are 1:1 matings, the difference is that with deliberate 1:1 matings you know who the father is.
Selfing is a possible exception, but is also a valid tool for fixing a trait. I would have loved to selfed NL5 to try and exaggerate the resin production. It didn't work with that plant, but it still may work for others. Feminisation as a breeding strategy seems to work for some. Cabron showed us some heavy yielding plants, bred in this way. The only moral arguments I have against fems is that it may cause hermies, but if you've tested the mating and it doesn't, well it doesn't. The other argument is that it stops people from breeding without using specialised teks. You could fix that by including an extra packet of seeds from a M to F mating that would even act as a suitable mate for the best fems.
I'm about empowering people, IMO thats the best way to save the genepool.

All this talk about open pollinated landraces, is wasted on me, I haven't got any. How many are in the MN catalogue? Mostly the people waffling on about it don't have or sell any either. That and saving the genepool is mostly noble sounding horseshit. The genepool doesn't need saving. Cannabis will out last us. What needs saving is good genes. I thought the best way to do that was to spread the genetics of the best individual plants. I seem to have had some success.
If Chimera or Gitt want to explain how what they are doing is better, I'm willing to listen. Start with what you are growing and how it was bred. Then tell us how you are saving the genepool. If you don't want to do that, stop giving me a hard time.


N.