Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[growingcrazy]

Before those days, guys that I know that were recycling soil blindly were just adding back a shit ton of lime and trace minerals every run, and maybe some kelp meal for K. Their soil mixes would have enough insoluble phosphate for about 10 years of growing. But those guys would still feed something like Earth Juice or Age Old during flower, probably to keep up with the need for K and trace metals. I still know quite a few dudes rocking soil like this. But non-science has never been my style.

As I see it, chemistry is a science that is built upon physics. The electrostatic charges or atoms and molecules and their interactions. Much the same way, biology is built up with the fundamental concepts of chemistry, cell structure and tissue mobilization of compounds, ect. So if you are trying to grow scientifically, you can't just read "Teaming with Microbes" and skip all the chemistry. But the average high school or even college educated person hated/s chemistry because it is "hard" and dissecting a frog is always so much more fun. But chemistry is MORE fundamental than biology. Your loss if you don't want to go back and learn it. And not just in soil, but in all natural phenomena, chemistry is the best system we have for describing the universe around us, from the origins of the water on our planet, to the formation of star clusters in galaxies. Anyone with a true curiousity of the natural world will arrive at chemistry at some point.

Thanks for the answer Space Case!

 

[orechron]

Chemistry is dope! When we are talking about Phosphorus and energy a lot of that P is used by a kinase and a lot of cellular processes are regulated in this way. ATP->ADP : kinase, cellular signaling or response to a stimulus : kinase.

Addition of a small compound changes things so drastically, like Jidoka mentioned with methyl groups on DNA. Its pretty slick.

 

[Space Case]

Science Sunday guys!

 

[growingcrazy]

Sending a sample to Logan Labs tomorrow. I'm having the standard and paste done on the soil and a standard test on my water source. Anything else missing?

 

[slownickel]

Sending a sample to Logan Labs tomorrow. I'm having the standard and paste done on the soil and a standard test on my water source. Anything else missing?

Yes, You are missing a good lab. Logan is not a good lab. They constantly have problems with elements like B and Ca.

I suggest Spectrumanalytic.

Up to you. There are several Logan fans here too.

 

[TnTLabs]

im sure theres a reason why i dont find much info on sodium silicate for horticultural purposes, but i have a bottle of it around, from a chemical supply shop.. so not watered down... so i wanted to ask here for any advice..
Would it be ok to use Na2SiO3 in Veg? i would get ~6ppm N and 12ppm Si at 0,1ml / L
im looking to get around 12ppm Si...

Also a Potassium Silicate with ~30 bè is just in a lot more concentrated form than
Pro-Silicate or any other Potassium Silicate from the grow shop no?
thanks

 

[jidoka]

For the sake of the community I second slow

This is by far the best soil balancing thread on the internet. The more people that use spectrum, the bigger the database, the more we learn

I don't buy the one lab is better than the other. They both have issues

But I do buy pick one and go from there

 

[jidoka]

im sure theres a reason why i dont find much info on sodium silicate for horticultural purposes, but i have a bottle of it around, from a chemical supply shop.. so not watered down... so i wanted to ask here for any advice..
Would it be ok to use Na2SiO3 in Veg? i would get ~6ppm N and 12ppm Si at 0,1ml / L
im looking to get around 12ppm Si...

Also a Potassium Silicate with ~30 bè is just in a lot more concentrated form than
Pro-Silicate or any other Potassium Silicate from the grow shop no?
thanks

Nasiliate is a stupid powerful deflocculaing agent in clay. Avoid it at all cost

It is the reason I no longer use sea crop, the na compounds with the silicate and does zero good.

 

[TnTLabs]

Nasiliate is a stupid powerful deflocculaing agent in clay. Avoid it at all cost

It is the reason I no longer use sea crop, the na compounds with the silicate and does zero good.

very interesting indeed, that makes sence now after looking up what deflocculants are...
but the Potassium Silicate with ~30 bé is the same as in Pro-Silicate for example, just higher concentrated no?
also i was going to try sea crop one day but if you say its no good..
thanks

 

[TnTLabs]

im confused... Fulvic and Humic Acids are deflocculants too?

 

[jidoka]

So is Mg. You can't avoid them all. You got to weigh risk b reward

Again...anything I say is my opinion. You have to decide. Honestly I don't believe myself... I test

 

[TnTLabs]

its all about the balance, with all things in life... i get you...
this might be the reason why i keep hearing Epsom Salt is best used for foliar if anything...
ive tested the sodium silicate before without any bad outcomes, but very very sparingly.. only when my potassium silicate is empty, to raise the ph .2 or something

ive got to do the test asap to finally know when to add potassium silicate to the mix.. at the beginning or at the end... sometimes it will precipitate, mostly in conjunction with organic nutes.. another balancing act

 

[LostTribe]

Tried the mix. Didn't like it. For three years now. Maybe my topsoil is different, because it's way too dense. If I did 90% with seedlings, they wouldn't push through the soil.



We are talking about the same person right? Mr. I got picked up by Monsanto because I know what a Zn deficiency looks like? Come on, too many years on the boards for me to have to defend my last comments.


Jidoka almost seems like two people posting from the same account.

To each their own, I was just warning about the possibility that Jidoka might be keeping important information back, like he commonly states.

90/10 sound bunk to me OG.....

 

[MedResearcher]

Re-read the ad. No need to post it. lol.

 

[Space Case]

Why get any extra sodium in there if you can avoid it? The only sodium I use is borate and molybdenate, and both in tiny amounts. And I prefer to use boric acid for B, but its less soluble, and if I could source Molybdosilicilic acid at a cheap rate, I totally would!

As far silica sources, calcium silicate will be the cheapest per lb hands down, but it is alkaline and insoluble. So use it in place of lime.

AgSil will be the most concentrated source of Potassium silicate, because it is a powder and not a solution. If you insist on a liquid solution, hydro-gardens.com sells a potassium liquid concentrate that is so concentrated, it is basically liquid glass. On a cold day, it pours like ketchup. If you don't clean the cap after you pour, it dries into hard glass like crystals that will cut your hand open the next time you try to open the cap.

 

[plantingplants]

Re soil testing, arent you suppose to scrape the top inch off as well as sample 6" where the rootmass is?


Ps i have been getting weighed K1s for $10 more if you want it weighed but dont want N.

 

[TnTLabs]

Why get any extra sodium in there if you can avoid it? The only sodium I use is borate and molybdenate, and both in tiny amounts. And I prefer to use boric acid for B, but its less soluble, and if I could source Molybdosilicilic acid at a cheap rate, I totally would!

As far silica sources, calcium silicate will be the cheapest per lb hands down, but it is alkaline and insoluble. So use it in place of lime.

AgSil will be the most concentrated source of Potassium silicate, because it is a powder and not a solution. If you insist on a liquid solution, hydro-gardens.com sells a potassium liquid concentrate that is so concentrated, it is basically liquid glass. On a cold day, it pours like ketchup. If you don't clean the cap after you pour, it dries into hard glass like crystals that will cut your hand open the next time you try to open the cap.

you are right about the sodium... no need for that..

AgSil is most likely a very similar concentration to what i get in the chemical store... its called liquid glass like you say.. it has the viscosity of honey... ~30-35 bé (Baume) id have to do the maths but at €9 for a Liter.. im getting at least 20 x more than from a Liter from the grow store

 

[HappyTreeFarm]

Nasiliate is a stupid powerful deflocculaing agent in clay. Avoid it at all cost

It is the reason I no longer use sea crop, the na compounds with the silicate and does zero good.

here is a interesting article that might have relevance to this subject
page 104
i still don't fully understand the concept, more reading is required

https://books.google.com/books?id=f...ved=0ahUKEwiOtMfUup_SAhVo6YMKHarwDmIQ6AEIRDAH

 

[TnTLabs]

here is a interesting article that might have relevance to this subject
page 104
i still don't fully understand the concept, more reading is required

https://books.google.com/books?id=f...ved=0ahUKEwiOtMfUup_SAhVo6YMKHarwDmIQ6AEIRDAH

thanks for the info! need to re-read but from what i understood jidoka was right yes, deflocculation is something you want to avoid in soil,
in this case it would be caused from the sodium

 

[growingcrazy]

So I am getting ready to send a sample in to spectrum, what exactly should I have done? I was thinking the S3, and the N1 on the soil? That is a mehlich3, [email protected] and nitrates? As well as having my water tested. Anything else I should be looking at?

Here is my mix that will go in for testing.

Base Soil Mix
2 gallons recycled soil (coots mix)
1 gallons peat (harvested on farm)
1 gallons composted tree stump
1 gallon EWC/compost
.5 gallon topsoil
2 gallons perlite

Amendment Mix - All mixed into a tote together
25lbs Alfalfa Meal
25lbs Fish Bone Meal
20lbs Kelp Meal
5lbs Neem Meal
15lbs Shrimp Meal

This is my 1 cuft mix:

Base mix 7.5 gallons +

2 cups amendment mix
2 cups oyster shell meal (manna)
2 cups barn lime (waukesha)
1 cup DE/Bentonite (redlakeearth)
1 cup creek silt

I chose those additions simply for year round availability, on any scale, locally. Curious to see test results, since the plants in the mix are doing very well so far with only Mg foliars.