caterpillar710
Member
What a clap back
-
ICMag with help from Landrace Warden and The Vault is running a NEW contest in November! You can check it here. Prizes are seeds & forum premium access. Come join in!
Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation
- Thread starter slownickel
- Start date
- Status
TnTLabs
Active member
so ive been reading a few people running into problems with high aluminium levels and other metals... has anyone used something like Sepiolite in their soil mixes to absorb the high metals?
sepiolite consists of
55.97%, SiO2,
22.81% MgO,
1.56% Al2O3,
0.12% Na2O,
0.27% K2O,
0.77% Fe2O3,
0.02% MnO,
0.12% TiO2,
0.57% CaO
one of its uses is as a Landfill Liner "the results show that zeolite sepiolite mixtures can be effectively used in bottom lining systems for hazardous, industrial and municipal waste.
its also used as bonzai growing media by some with good results...
With a CEC of 20-30, Clay 69% and Silt 31% it looks like a interesting amendment id say.. anyone with experience?
sepiolite consists of
55.97%, SiO2,
22.81% MgO,
1.56% Al2O3,
0.12% Na2O,
0.27% K2O,
0.77% Fe2O3,
0.02% MnO,
0.12% TiO2,
0.57% CaO
one of its uses is as a Landfill Liner "the results show that zeolite sepiolite mixtures can be effectively used in bottom lining systems for hazardous, industrial and municipal waste.
its also used as bonzai growing media by some with good results...
With a CEC of 20-30, Clay 69% and Silt 31% it looks like a interesting amendment id say.. anyone with experience?
Wouldnt any clay work to absorb Aluminium?
That sepiolite has a crazy high Mg:Ca ratio so should be used sparingly.
That sepiolite has a crazy high Mg:Ca ratio so should be used sparingly.
Surely we would all love to hear about epigenetics.
To my understanding, gene expression change from either chemical or biological influence is the thrust of the subject, correct?
A fancy term for getting it right, no?
C'mon Slow...what I said was I don't want to talk about epigenetics...not please tempt me into it. Secondly I seem to recall sitting around a kitchen table once upon a time on skype listening to someone telling me they could induce flowering regardless of photoperiod with ammoniacal N vs nitrate...is that not an application of epigenetics.
If you really meant it I would suggest looking up Dr Rhonda Patrick...she talks specifically about it in one of her pod casts, after that go to her talking with Dr Dominic D'Agostino and then one of her Joe Rogan appearances where she talks about brain injury and the pathways involved...I forget which one it is. Beyond that look up scientific papers specific to plants.
I flat out am not doing this research for anyone but me.
edit...and no, it is not flat out a term for getting it right or wrong. Right and wrong do not exist in nature, that is some made up bullshit of the only species on earth with a so called conscious.
edit...I got no clue how to spell it correctly, but polymorphism applies to plants. OGs use less K than sweet tasting bullshit strains for example
If you really meant it I would suggest looking up Dr Rhonda Patrick...she talks specifically about it in one of her pod casts, after that go to her talking with Dr Dominic D'Agostino and then one of her Joe Rogan appearances where she talks about brain injury and the pathways involved...I forget which one it is. Beyond that look up scientific papers specific to plants.
I flat out am not doing this research for anyone but me.
edit...and no, it is not flat out a term for getting it right or wrong. Right and wrong do not exist in nature, that is some made up bullshit of the only species on earth with a so called conscious.
edit...I got no clue how to spell it correctly, but polymorphism applies to plants. OGs use less K than sweet tasting bullshit strains for example
Last edited:
caterpillar710
Member
Elephants have a conscious too and dolphins fuck for pleasure
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...2245F4596808AD468D5D2245F4596808AD4&FORM=VIRE
well played Cat. You got me this time...who knew I was part dolphin
well played Cat. You got me this time...who knew I was part dolphin
SkyHighWormGuy
Member
Jidoka,
I really appreciate you taking the time to respond, thanks man.
I'm growing strictly indoor, and I guess what I'm shooting for is a "light" mix, but really I'm not entirely sure what you mean there. What constitutes a "heavy" mix vs a "light" one?
I agree there isn't any good bagged soil options based on what I've seen. The clackamas coot soil had thus far out performed everything else I've tried...but now I feel it's failing, and I'm kinda 2nd guessing the worship the soil food web and all will excel beyond belief for eternity thinking.
Maybe I should stick with clackamas coot mix, modified a little, and just let the no till thing go. Testing the mix prior to runs and after is smart, good idea.
I haven't made my new batch of soil yet, but I'm getting my recipe squared away and as soon as I mix it I'm gonna get it tested.
Btw, currently, which lab is recommended for a potting mix and what test do I request.
You guys rock
I really appreciate you taking the time to respond, thanks man.
I'm growing strictly indoor, and I guess what I'm shooting for is a "light" mix, but really I'm not entirely sure what you mean there. What constitutes a "heavy" mix vs a "light" one?
I agree there isn't any good bagged soil options based on what I've seen. The clackamas coot soil had thus far out performed everything else I've tried...but now I feel it's failing, and I'm kinda 2nd guessing the worship the soil food web and all will excel beyond belief for eternity thinking.
Maybe I should stick with clackamas coot mix, modified a little, and just let the no till thing go. Testing the mix prior to runs and after is smart, good idea.
I haven't made my new batch of soil yet, but I'm getting my recipe squared away and as soon as I mix it I'm gonna get it tested.
Btw, currently, which lab is recommended for a potting mix and what test do I request.
You guys rock
That is a good question. Like I said I am not totally happy with anything I have for indo yet. I would love to hear from other people how they do it.
If I were you I would send that Coot mix in for testing. Being a lightweight mix the K gets used up pretty quick anyways and you can balance from there. What could throw that off is all of the "natural" stuff with high K those guys use...comfry, aloe, coconut water. But even if you do have high K Slow's gypsum deal can solve it in a hurry. The advantage of the coot deal is that it is heavier than a mostly peat based mix which will reduce feeding.
You can go with a super light mix similar to SS or Promix (make it yourself), get it tested and add compost (which you would also test) as a K amendment...that is use only enough compost to get you in that 4-6% K base cation saturation
Or, depending on if you have good top soil available, go something like 50% peat, 25% top soil instead of compost, and 25% drainage. Again, test that base and add compost to K requirements. This is a bit heavier yet
Space and I have even tried 50% top soil, 25% peat and drain. But trust us that is a serious nut buster if you put it in much over 10 gallon bags.
A big difference between us and the organic forum guys is we aren't so much about track down this specific amendment from india, that amendment from the coast, this specific compost, etc. More about see what you got locally and then use soil balancing principals to make it work.
Definitely though avoid any compost or top soil that has had round up used on it and preferably any other cide. So no municipal waste. Cause when you are growing a weed, weed killer probably ain't the best idea
As far as both soil and leaf microbes I am a total believer in absolute excess. Fan of microbeman in that case
SkyHighWormGuy
Member
base mix
30% scoria
25% screened top soil
20% SPM (pre-hydrated with aloe water)
15% premium fresh screened vermicompost
5% bio char, charged with compost tea
5% malted barley seed, whole
1). mix well and hydrate with some aloe water if needed
amendments per cubic foot of total soil volume
1 cup fresh chopped comfrey
1 cup glacial rock dust
1 cup gypsum
.5 cup oyster shell flour
.5 cup ag lime, fine
1 cup kelp meal
.5 cup fish meal
here is where my draft soil mix is at currently. this batch will be more than double what I need to flower with so that I can let go of the idea of no till indo gardening if need be and retest amend recycle each run with ease.
scoria, well I like the stuff alot, its got lots of little pores for air and it stays where you put it unlike perlite. pumice costs more and I have a 1/2 yard of scoria sitting here now.
comfrey and malted barley seed seem like great things to promote a large thriving (working) population of soil microorganisms
oyster shell flour could be omitted, I don't think its hurting anything even if its availability is questionable, provides calcium down the road if not immediately.
is a cup of gypsum per ft3 a good amount to start with? an educated guess before the test results come back, I understand.
fine ag lime in place of some of the oyster shell flour, is that a better plan?
this speak of too much K in the soil confuses me. I always thought you could have an excess of nutrients in the soil, the plant signals to the soil biology via exudates, what it needs to uptake, and when. that is/was the reason no till organic grows can be successful.
what intrigues me is that it seems you guys are dialing what the plant needs and when and achieving much better plants than I am, and consistently on a larger scale. that means something.
open to critiques and such, excited to finally start testing my soil! going to wait a week or 2 more to mix it, to allow for more thinking about it
30% scoria
25% screened top soil
20% SPM (pre-hydrated with aloe water)
15% premium fresh screened vermicompost
5% bio char, charged with compost tea
5% malted barley seed, whole
1). mix well and hydrate with some aloe water if needed
amendments per cubic foot of total soil volume
1 cup fresh chopped comfrey
1 cup glacial rock dust
1 cup gypsum
.5 cup oyster shell flour
.5 cup ag lime, fine
1 cup kelp meal
.5 cup fish meal
here is where my draft soil mix is at currently. this batch will be more than double what I need to flower with so that I can let go of the idea of no till indo gardening if need be and retest amend recycle each run with ease.
scoria, well I like the stuff alot, its got lots of little pores for air and it stays where you put it unlike perlite. pumice costs more and I have a 1/2 yard of scoria sitting here now.
comfrey and malted barley seed seem like great things to promote a large thriving (working) population of soil microorganisms
oyster shell flour could be omitted, I don't think its hurting anything even if its availability is questionable, provides calcium down the road if not immediately.
is a cup of gypsum per ft3 a good amount to start with? an educated guess before the test results come back, I understand.
fine ag lime in place of some of the oyster shell flour, is that a better plan?
this speak of too much K in the soil confuses me. I always thought you could have an excess of nutrients in the soil, the plant signals to the soil biology via exudates, what it needs to uptake, and when. that is/was the reason no till organic grows can be successful.
what intrigues me is that it seems you guys are dialing what the plant needs and when and achieving much better plants than I am, and consistently on a larger scale. that means something.
open to critiques and such, excited to finally start testing my soil! going to wait a week or 2 more to mix it, to allow for more thinking about it
plantingplants
Active member
Also test to see if glacial rock dust is adding too much bullshit like Fe and Al- you are going to need to add micro sulfates anyway so maybe skip the GRD. I see people consistently recommend cascade basalt over GRD if you are set on that sort of addition.
Your Ca source should be made in consideration of your soil pH and water pH.
And yea plants don't just ignore what they don't want and use what they do. I hope the other guys chime in more to this point but it sounds to me that to a degree plants can influence what is available to their roots thru exudates and such but only to a degree and after that it becomes a simple chemistry equation or numbers game where the plant has one uptake path for a certain set of nutrients and too many of one ion present will be taken up more. But don't quote me. Just trying to get the convo started
Your Ca source should be made in consideration of your soil pH and water pH.
And yea plants don't just ignore what they don't want and use what they do. I hope the other guys chime in more to this point but it sounds to me that to a degree plants can influence what is available to their roots thru exudates and such but only to a degree and after that it becomes a simple chemistry equation or numbers game where the plant has one uptake path for a certain set of nutrients and too many of one ion present will be taken up more. But don't quote me. Just trying to get the convo started
Tried the mix. Didn't like it. For three years now. Maybe my topsoil is different, because it's way too dense. If I did 90% with seedlings, they wouldn't push through the soil.
Fix the calcium in the topsoil. You're not capitalizing on a free resource by choosing to import all that peat in stead.
We are talking about the same person right? Mr. I got picked up by Monsanto because I know what a Zn deficiency looks like? Come on, too many years on the boards for me to have to defend my last comments.
We were trolling you. But you already new Milkyjoe was a treacherous asshole right? You were in tantrum mode about AEA and out to ring the alarm bell that he was trying to mess up people's grows. Right, because he sits at home thinking "how can I fuck up Bulldog's plants today".
Jidoka almost seems like two people posting from the same account.
To each their own, I was just warning about the possibility that Jidoka might be keeping important information back, like he commonly states.
He is and so am I now, but the point of this argument has to do with intent. I don't think anyone here has the intention of messing up other grows.
One thing to consider is the iron content of most rock dusts. One of the perks to rock dusts are the micronutrients but consider using micro sulfates and you can keep Iron from getting too high. Edit (planting plants beat me to it). At least look at the Iron content of the cascade product...
Good luck no matter what you decide.
leadsled
Member
Iron. Excellent advice on that. Will share little bit of what I have tested and seen.
The basalt rock dust also can add excess iron. Sticking to a lb or less per yard with a CEC of 15 or less has been working well without adding excess iron.
But better to test rather than guess or assume.
Best bet is to test your base mix. Then amend.
Oyster shells wont work the same as oyster shell flour.
Flour is a powder made by grinding.
The basalt rock dust also can add excess iron. Sticking to a lb or less per yard with a CEC of 15 or less has been working well without adding excess iron.
But better to test rather than guess or assume.
Best bet is to test your base mix. Then amend.
Oyster shells wont work the same as oyster shell flour.
Flour is a powder made by grinding.
Might I suggest going forward instead of backwards? Figure out where you went wrong and fix it. Congratulations on your revelation of using more soil chemistry instead of more webs...
I have always agreed on the idea that if you build it, they will come.... meaning get the soil chemistry correct which is your foundation, then break out the microbiology, as only then can they really thrive. It is a system and all of the pieces have to fit.
Last edited:
SkyHighWormGuy
Member
ill just make the base mix I posted above ^^ no amendments to start. hopefully its ok if I post the results here Slow. i hope i can get some help with the amending based off the test results.. afraid of getting lost .. soil test virgin here thus far I've been guessing. it seems like I'm getting somewhere though. thanks guys
edit: slow, are you saying i should focus on fixing my current soil as opposed to starting over? id rather just start over, we are talking a small amount of soil really, and what I'm using now is primarily worm castings... I'm excited to use the old dirt for projects in the front yard
edit: slow, are you saying i should focus on fixing my current soil as opposed to starting over? id rather just start over, we are talking a small amount of soil really, and what I'm using now is primarily worm castings... I'm excited to use the old dirt for projects in the front yard
Last edited:
What I am saying is that your "new" mix might be better off being a modified copy of what you have had success with before. Just try to figure out where you went wrong and correct the issues at hand.
Post away!
SkyHighWormGuy
Member
ok. for the record. here is what I'm looking to improve upon.
Before the days of soil testing what was the method of mineral balancing?
Before those days, guys that I know that were recycling soil blindly were just adding back a shit ton of lime and trace minerals every run, and maybe some kelp meal for K. Their soil mixes would have enough insoluble phosphate for about 10 years of growing. But those guys would still feed something like Earth Juice or Age Old during flower, probably to keep up with the need for K and trace metals. I still know quite a few dudes rocking soil like this. But non-science has never been my style.
As I see it, chemistry is a science that is built upon physics. The electrostatic charges or atoms and molecules and their interactions. Much the same way, biology is built up with the fundamental concepts of chemistry, cell structure and tissue mobilization of compounds, ect. So if you are trying to grow scientifically, you can't just read "Teaming with Microbes" and skip all the chemistry. But the average high school or even college educated person hated/s chemistry because it is "hard" and dissecting a frog is always so much more fun. But chemistry is MORE fundamental than biology. Your loss if you don't want to go back and learn it. And not just in soil, but in all natural phenomena, chemistry is the best system we have for describing the universe around us, from the origins of the water on our planet, to the formation of star clusters in galaxies. Anyone with a true curiousity of the natural world will arrive at chemistry at some point.
- Status
