Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[HillMizer]

So looked into it again today, and my local hydro store is getting me 4 yard bales of peat for 350$ or 87.50 a yard. I looked on line at home depot and couldn't find any peat moss in bulk. Lowes has the 3.8 cubic ft bags for 12.85, or 91 dollars a yard. It's listed as unavailable for delivery and pick up.

Anybody have a beat on good peat?
.

Home depot has different peat in stock here than on website, similar price though.

Compressed bales double in size. I use 7 cu ft as my number for calculating bales. 3.8ft compressed = 7 cu ft.

3.8 bales per yard @ $12.85 = $45.60/yard.
If the hydro store big bales fluff up then it's a good price too. I bought way too much one time because I forgot fluff factor.

 

[caterpillar710]

soilscape solution in arcata has peat in bulk for a good deal and can work out a good freight price

 

[jidoka]

Devil his due

Devil his due





This pot pH 6.8, ca 82%, mg 8.12, k 1.45, na 0.81

Fed kno3 a couple of times and micros weekly. Obviously need to knock off the nitrate, just switch to sulfate

Unless I don't know shit it is set on crush

 

[caterpillar710]

Looks good

 

[Space Case]

View attachment 397263

View attachment 397264

This pot pH 6.8, ca 82%, mg 8.12, k 1.45, na 0.81

Fed kno3 a couple of times and micros weekly. Obviously need to knock off the nitrate, just switch to sulfate

Unless I don't know shit it is set on crush

Where is your P at?

 

[jidoka]

p 155 ppm
S. 114

I have to remove the hdr before posting

 

[plantingplants]

Jidoka are those bcs based on a weighed sample at spectrum & using the aa8.2 ca value? If not, how did you calculate it?

 

[jidoka]

So wanna get real for a second. See those wrinkles/bubbles...that leaf has a Ca def even at 82% Ca, that is cellular degradation. Not a Ca shortage in the soil...a bunch of microbes fighting to break down the peat instead of making Ca available. Ima think the soil needs mo fungus...so full fat fish hydralosate and kelp is my plan. And in the meantime...foliar Ca

Peat, Neem, coco...those ain't no things to have in an organic grow. They just waste your microbes time.

You could make the argument the Ca is tied up by carbonates or bicarbonates but that ain't the case here. I was very careful to build this one with gypsum beyond a point to avoid pH going too high

Anyways...live and learn, some more

edit....my weekly micro feed is very high in mn to make up for that problem

 

[HappyTreeFarm]

how is this test plant with the high Ca levels doing compared to the rest of your garden? Are you sold yet on the high Ca soils?

 

[caterpillar710]

Careful you switch to adding K back in at the right times or your yields will suck

 

[jidoka]

I am following K with the meter. Pretty easy to control that. I should get some acatate for foliar

Bumping B probably would help

Gotta wait for results before I judge

 

[caterpillar710]

I know you know what you're doing man, my post wasn't directed toward you

 

[orechron]

It could be that more B would help. I was hovering around 1ppm, then jumped to 2-2.5ppm and saw an improvement.

Jidoka, is it possible that the bubbling was after the KNO3 dose? Or was it happening beforehand?

I had maybe the same thing happen about two years ago with my peat based indoor mix:


That was the paste test I was telling you about, but it was K deficient so I ran to the shop and got some Biobizz grow (3-0-8) because I didn't have any K salts. It's basically just fish and sugar but I got slight bubbling between the veins afterward. K def gone and Ca def started to show, but it may have been more due to the added nitrate is what I'm suggesting.

 

[jidoka]

I have some boric acid so fixing the B should be easy enough.

I was not paying enough attention on the timing v kno3 but that is a strong possibility. If you look at leaf tips I clearly overdid nitrate which could also cause cellular weakness. That may be an excellent catch you just made.

Those saturated paste tests have me messing around some more with salts. The basic rule of thumb is Ca 2x K 2x Mg. Your avg bottle nute is K 1.5-2 x Ca. I am now K maybe 90% of Ca and sap K is still higher in the bottom leaf. I am just easing further down...so far off from what is established I question myself. Then again sacred cows make the tastiest burgers.

 

[caterpillar710]

Kill em all

 

[orechron]

I think you're right about what is going to come off those plants though. They look like they are growing fast and ready to get fat.

 

[SkyHighWormGuy]

Peat, Neem, coco...those ain't no things to have in an organic grow. They just waste your microbes time.

What then do you think is ideal? For a base mix and even amendments if you care to share that much. I'm most interested in finding ideal ratios (of what??) to make an organic mix that is high functioning and long lasting in that state.

Thanks

 

[plantingplants]

Orech has successfully used 90% topsoil, 10% aeration. Hazy, have you tried that mix or just ruling it out based on texture.

 

[orechron]

What then do you think is ideal? For a base mix and even amendments if you care to share that much. I'm most interested in finding ideal ratios (of what??) to make an organic mix that is high functioning and long lasting in that state.

Thanks

One thing I've been thinking about is how the tcec can change as the organic component of your mix changes. If you start with 50cec peat, what is the cec if your worms turn it into castings? I think mine steadily rose from 10-12 to over 20 cec on a logan test after 2 years. Downside is that I'm in a large volume and adding additional calcium is a pain unless you just want to drench gypsum.

I wouldn't believe this if i were you......... Many times Jidoka has stated he wont share the true path he is working on. Likes to lead people away from the water and tells you to drink. Not meant to offend you Jidoka, but you say it often.


I have been experimenting with different soil mixes, and I have to say, 10-15% top soil, 25% compost, 45% Peat, 20% aeration feels like the right mix to me. Pure clay on my property is too much. Even a 33% top soil, 33% compost and 33% aeration was WAY TOO dense.

You make it sound like he is deliberately misleading people. In fact, he often gives a disclaimer with his suggestions. You saw the pictures of his clay based mix in pots where the top is dried out and cracking. It's not easy to water heavier soils like that, but it's more than possible. Space case brought me samples of his weed this year. It had crazy density for outdoor and I've grown half the varieties that he produced.

If you blindly follow people's methods on the internet without knowing the planning behind those methods, then you might not know how to troubleshoot problems that come up.

Orech has successfully used 90% topsoil, 10% aeration. Hazy, have you tried that mix or just ruling it out based on texture.

There is a difference in a field turned to raised beds and big fabric pots. And what type of clay you're using or if you've amended it well enough. My old raised beds were pushing 70-75% Ca and I didn't have any sort of hardpan to deal with. 1/3 clay, 1/3 compost, 1/3 aeration is not too dense if you have your calcium right.

 

[jidoka]

What then do you think is ideal? For a base mix and even amendments if you care to share that much. I'm most interested in finding ideal ratios (of what??) to make an organic mix that is high functioning and long lasting in that state.

Thanks

Are you talking lightweight indoor mix or an outdoor?

I will say having tested a fuck load of bagged soil that quality control is non existent. We have seen one Fox Farm bag with double the Ca as another bag. So to me bagged soil is a no go period.

Also with indo light weight mixes there is no such thing as a long lasting mix. You just do not have the cec sites to make it so. It is my belief (not a fact) that you need a yard of media per light if you intend to make it through a single grow without adding anything during the grow. When you look at the organic forum grows what do you see at the end of every grow...burned up looking plants with every deficiency in the book (but, but, its the flush that makes it so good).

A simple test will show this. Test some lightweight soil before a grow, go water only and then test it again at the end of the grow. What you will see is shortages of things that are seriously important to quality

So I do not have what I would call an ideal mix. My current pursuits of that are a) heavier soils with far more cec sites so I can load everything the plant needs (my trial with a top soil that is 20% clay crashed and burned badly so my next shot will be with a top soil that is 5% clay) and b) a real lightweight trial with 80% + Ca and just accept that I will have to feed K and micros. So far it seems to be a pretty good way to go.

I will also say I believe (disclaimer...my belief) that you cannot simply add lots of compost to peat without driving K way above what you need. I believe this is the biggest mistake people make. With all of that K your plant cannot take up Ca and without Ca yield and quality both suffer and insect/mold pressure become inevitable (hence all the ipm talk in organic forums). I kinda believe a couple of bags of sup r green per yard of mix is about where I would go or better yet just take your mix without compost, get a soil test and use compost as a K amendment.

What I don't want to talk about is epigenetics. Those little methyl groups that set on genes and turn them on and off. Understanding that took some serious time and nobody cares anyway.

Feel free to correct anything you have an issue with HB.

Outdoors I am stubborn enough to believe I can simply use a yard of heavy enough soil to grow the size plants I want. And yea it would be easier to just use way more lighter soil but what would be the challenge in that.