Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[TnTLabs]

slow i know you are going to say send a sample already, and i will.. believe me... after seeing this data...
i first checked ec & ph of my well water and found it to be around 350ppm (0.7EC) and about 5.8ph... i find that odd as i always thought well water to be better, depending of groundwater quality of course...
that got me thinking and after some research i found that due to excessive overfertilisation over the years some neighboring costal areas have nitrate levels of
200-400mg/L


From my understanding, the problem is that this costal area is where the groundwater discharge into the Mediterranean sea occurs, where normaly the nitrates would wash out... but due to the use of wells, we hinder the process and the water gets recycled so to speak and the nitrates cant wash out..

data from a paper with samples from wells from my town

Nitrate mass balance in agricultural areas of intensive fertilizer application

-------------- Well01 ----- Well02
CE (μS/cm) ---- 1281 ----- 1337
HCO3- -------- 158.4 ----- 283.5
SO4-2 --------- 271 ----- 272
Cl- ----------- 119.3 ----- 112.5
NO3- -------- 236.4 ----- 201.5
Na+ --------- 35.54 ----- 46.4
K+ ----------- 1.33 ----- 9.09
Ca+2 -------- 211.8 ----- 236.8
Mg+2 -------- 49.9 ----- 42.1
Error (%) ----- 5.53 ----- 4.87

Conclusion of the paper.. (in short)
This indicates a gradual degradation of groundwater quality and can be explained by the inclusion of N compounds to the saturated zone through an indiscriminate application of fertilizers in agricultural fields.

sure i could filter the water, but that would be a big big waste plus i would contribute to hindering the natural groundwater discharge even more

 

[slownickel]

These are the most interesting points imo. The first few talk about leeching but I think there is a window where the leeched cations are available or in solution. I've seen what appears to be a manganese toxicity induced by gypsum application. Then, if you continue to water to run off you lose what was released. Unless you can perfectly water a container for 2.5 months, it seems you run the risk of adding calcium at the expense of other cations, which is great if you have high Mg or K.

Gypsum depressing phosphorus brings me back to the questions I asked earlier about these liberal Calcium applications and perhaps why we constantly need to apply more P. Is this a feedback problem. Do we have to keep adding more Ca and P indefinitely because they are constantly getting tied up and unavailable?



Where was his soil at before he added that amount?

You saw manganese toxicity when you applied gypsum to that acid soil? Is that the case you are referring to?

Gypsum has to be quantified and used correctly. Not everyone needs gypsum. Some need lots of lime instead. Especially if you are in an acid situation with low ppm water. The stripping effect of low ppm water is famous.

Applying gypsum to an acid soil without trying to adjust the pH by adding carbonate is folly.

Never heard of leaching metals. Metals are precipitated, they don't easily move in the soil. So if manganese went toxic because of gypsum on an acid soil, the Fe was low.. Realize that toxicities of Mn and Fe look identical to deficiencies.

If you have a P issue, I would argue that most cation additions will make it worse, not just calcium.

The whole system is a balancing act. P is easily locked up for many reasons. Are you referring to an acid soil again with gypsum being applied?

Here, Ca makes the P more available. Same when we lime acid soils.

What situation are you referring to, please be more specific?

Tony never got a soil analysis. He has a thread very worth reading. The antigypsum folk were there in force. hahaha.. pH 7+ and EC off the chart. Ask him what worked...

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=332155

 

[slownickel]

-------------- Well01 ----- Well02
CE (μS/cm) ---- 1281 ----- 1337
HCO3- -------- 158.4 ----- 283.5
SO4-2 --------- 271 ----- 272
Cl- ----------- 119.3 ----- 112.5
NO3- -------- 236.4 ----- 201.5
Na+ --------- 35.54 ----- 46.4
K+ ----------- 1.33 ----- 9.09
Ca+2 -------- 211.8 ----- 236.8
Mg+2 -------- 49.9 ----- 42.1
Error (%) ----- 5.53 ----- 4.87

Free nitrates... mmmm yuk. What is more alarming in those analysis is the K/Na ratio and the huge amount of bicarbonates. Funny that they don't report Carbonate....

At about 120 ppm bicarbonates start sucking up the available Ca in your soil, making carbonates. What is saving you all is that calcium in that water. Your soils will degrade over time with that type water!

 

[slownickel]

I think the folks at the National Gardening Association did a great job discussing gypsum.

https://garden.org/learn/articles/view/6/

The PhD here doesn't believe in acidic soil tests, maybe he doesn't understand the power of root exudates which are at a very low pH.

Oh well, most of the article is decent....

 

[TnTLabs]

Free nitrates... mmmm yuk. What is more alarming in those analysis is the K/Na ratio and the huge amount of bicarbonates. Funny that they don't report Carbonate....

At about 120 ppm bicarbonates start sucking up the available Ca in your soil, making carbonates. What is saving you all is that calcium in that water. Your soils will degrade over time with that type water!

hmmm..

350ppm water and 350ppm base soil..
i cant be adding too much to the soil unless i filter and mix the water down... or what other options are there?

 

[neverforget4/20]

Vortex,

I got a big kick out of the Solomon (I am in his last book) and Hugh (old friend) regarding calcium and Tiedjens conversation in Hugh's page.

Solomon only in the last couple of years came around to Albrecht with the push of Astera. Then I came in and rocked the boat with Tiedjens. Solomon actually threw me off the webpage until he realized who Astera really was. Then he asked me to come back... I am still there.... Astera is long gone.

The idea here is to discuss the mechanics and why's.... I think Hugh pushed a very valid point that you cannot even think about pushing the calcium numbers all the way with carbonates. That the final push should be with calcium sulphate. Hugh as always, is a real big help. Boy do I have some stories about Hugh and his Radionics black box... Makes me laugh just thinking about that one...

Id love to hear that story. I think I learned about Lovel in the AEA thread. I was intrigued and started listening to his talks online. I may have listened to each one 2/3 times. Super informative, and thought provoking.

It's wild how Lovel seems to hold wildly mystical beliefs side by side with fundamental science precepts in his philosophy.

Lovel is a very imaginative thinker.

 

[slownickel]

Id love to hear that story. I think I learned about Lovel in the AEA thread. I was intrigued and started listening to his talks online. I may have listened to each one 2/3 times. Super informative, and thought provoking.

It's wild how Lovel seems to hold wildly mystical beliefs side by side with fundamental science precepts in his philosophy.

Lovel is a very imaginative thinker.

I only met Hugh once, we stayed in contact for many years. Every now and then we cross paths in a soilandhealth or biodynamic forum.

When I first met him, it was 1984. Clermont, Florida. Went to visit an organic farmer with his buyer (the owner of ) Organic Farms in Maryland.

Hugh took out a radionics device and putting in several soil samples from the guys fields which we had just taken(and the visible deficiencies are quite clear.... so I was a bit tongue and cheek at his diagnosis with a radionics device whose only energy source was the rubbing of Hughs' fingers back and forth on a glass plate...

The farmer took out his latest soil and leaf analysis and sure enough, Hugh had nailed it!

Then Hugh asked the farmer if he had an aerial photo of the farm. He rolled the photo up and stuck in the recipient hole in the device. He opened up a box of "remedies" stick in this small quantity of different bottles and began to rub that glass plate.... The farmer asked him, "What are you doing?"

Hugh responded "I am treating your fields with the missing elements."

The farmer in a huge huff stormed out of the room cussing like you can't believe saying "And I was actually believing in this shit!".

Hugh kept rubbing that plate none the less and finished what he had started. We then left with not much fan fare.

A couple of months later I was with the guy from Organic Farms and I asked him what ever happened to that farmer in Florida we went to visit?

He told me that the farmer had called back a week later saying that he didn't know what the hell Hugh had done but what ever it was, it worked and worked REAL WELL. And that not only did the yields go up, but that the brix went through the roof!

Where are the videos that you are talking about?

Thanks in advance!

 

[brown_thumb]

Sorry if this is off-topic but... does soil analysis change with temperature? Would the same soil test differently at 40F vs. 60F vs. 80F? If so, wouldn't this affect plant needs depending on where we live and time of year?

 

[jidoka]

slow i got a real question...no fookin about.

if i take a peat based soil and managed to load the ce sites with 85% ca and nothing else my pH is gonna be close to 6...yeah? 6 is where organic soils have the best uptake of elements.

this would be indo cause fuck organic soils outside.

because of all of the organic matter i can surely also hold all of the phosphate i need. i would have to fertilize everything else but it would allow me to use enzymatically digested fish vs nitrate.

am i crazy...about this plan...i will admit to crazy about other things

 

[orechron]

You saw manganese toxicity when you applied gypsum to that acid soil? Is that the case you are referring to?

No, sorry I should have lead with the fact that it was in my "soil" that was 6.5-7.0pH based on an analysis from spectrum.

Gypsum has to be quantified and used correctly. Not everyone needs gypsum. Some need lots of lime instead. Especially if you are in an acid situation with low ppm water. The stripping effect of low ppm water is famous.

Applying gypsum to an acid soil without trying to adjust the pH by adding carbonate is folly.

Never heard of leaching metals. Metals are precipitated, they don't easily move in the soil. So if manganese went toxic because of gypsum on an acid soil, the Fe was low.. Realize that toxicities of Mn and Fe look identical to deficiencies.

Manganese and Zinc, at least seems to be leachable. I've added over 12 lbs of MnSO4 and maybe 5 lbs of ZnSO4 to 16 yards indoors over the past two years and test after test the ppm's are either unchanged or decreased. I don't see the same thing with Iron, Copper, or Aluminum however.

Iron, in my soil is between 150-200ppm, Mn between 40-90ppm. I can email you the analysis. There are 4 parts to it and it would be a pain to get it up here.

If you have a P issue, I would argue that most cation additions will make it worse, not just calcium.

The whole system is a balancing act. P is easily locked up for many reasons. Are you referring to an acid soil again with gypsum being applied?

Here, Ca makes the P more available. Same when we lime acid soils.

Slightly acid to neutral (6.5-7) in the range where I feel that adding gypsum would be safe. You were right though that I was using poor quality stuff because it seems to be the only thing that could have raised sodium.

What do you mean though about most cation additions making the P problem worse, including calcium?

What situation are you referring to, please be more specific?

Tony never got a soil analysis. He has a thread very worth reading. The antigypsum folk were there in force. hahaha.. pH 7+ and EC off the chart. Ask him what worked...

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=332155

Tony benefitting from gypsum application sounds like a clear case of over amended soil. What's unclear to me is how gypsum behaves in that 6.4-7.0pH range. Even in soils where its slightly acidic and I have good (debatable) distributions (70-75% Ca, 10-15% Mg, 5%K) the plants could use more Calcium, no argument there. If you push the number high with carbonates or silicate close to 7.0pH then I encounter insect pressure. This happened this run with soil in the 7-7.3 range and thrips have showed up. First time I've had a bug problem in almost 2 years. On the other hand if I use gypsum I see the Mn and Zn numbers change. All of my recent observations are in a media or soil that is too far off my target ranges though. When I get a new mix in I'll leave some pots separate to play with. If I see different results maybe I'll make up my mind.

Pure gypsum, theoretically should not change pH. So I should be able to do many applications run after run as long as I watch K levels. I did find a place that carries Diamond K brand without any Na listed on the analysis!

 

[neverforget4/20]

I only met Hugh once, we stayed in contact for many years. Every now and then we cross paths in a soilandhealth or biodynamic forum.

When I first met him, it was 1984. Clermont, Florida. Went to visit an organic farmer with his buyer (the owner of ) Organic Farms in Maryland.

Hugh took out a radionics device and putting in several soil samples from the guys fields which we had just taken(and the visible deficiencies are quite clear.... so I was a bit tongue and cheek at his diagnosis with a radionics device whose only energy source was the rubbing of Hughs' fingers back and forth on a glass plate...

The farmer took out his latest soil and leaf analysis and sure enough, Hugh had nailed it!

Then Hugh asked the farmer if he had an aerial photo of the farm. He rolled the photo up and stuck in the recipient hole in the device. He opened up a box of "remedies" stick in this small quantity of different bottles and began to rub that glass plate.... The farmer asked him, "What are you doing?"

Hugh responded "I am treating your fields with the missing elements."

The farmer in a huge huff stormed out of the room cussing like you can't believe saying "And I was actually believing in this shit!".

Hugh kept rubbing that plate none the less and finished what he had started. We then left with not much fan fare.

A couple of months later I was with the guy from Organic Farms and I asked him what ever happened to that farmer in Florida we went to visit?

He told me that the farmer had called back a week later saying that he didn't know what the hell Hugh had done but what ever it was, it worked and worked REAL WELL. And that not only did the yields go up, but that the brix went through the roof!

Where are the videos that you are talking about?

Thanks in advance!

LOL that's hilarious. He has that self-actualized/wizard like quality about him. An ability to work magic wouldn't surprise me.

Here's a few of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92WRecH5v1M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVQfsGotsBA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDBO9CFuBiI
There's a bunch more if you search youtube "hugh lovel".

In the meantime please take a look at my recent soil test from Logan.

This soil is resting and for use this spring.

Thanks for sharing your expertise.



My tap water 150ppm 7pH.

 

[orechron]

slow i got a real question...no fookin about.

if i take a peat based soil and managed to load the ce sites with 85% ca and nothing else my pH is gonna be close to 6...yeah? 6 is where organic soils have the best uptake of elements.

this would be indo cause fuck organic soils outside.

because of all of the organic matter i can surely also hold all of the phosphate i need. i would have to fertilize everything else but it would allow me to use enzymatically digested fish vs nitrate.

am i crazy...about this plan...i will admit to crazy about other things

I think you'd end up chasing too many different nutrient issues. I'd be hesitant to go that route considering how well your clay did last year.

 

[jidoka]

if you were able to find the exact amount of ca your plants need per grow you could supply it with gypsum and never change you bcs of ca...that would be pretty cool

 

[jidoka]

I think you'd end up chasing too many different nutrient issues. I'd be hesitant to go that route considering how well your clay did last year.

outdoors i wont change other than less mg up front to make room for higher ca and no k add at the end lol.

but indo, in peat based soil, if i get ca up to 85% and want pH around 6 i have no room for mg or k

 

[TnTLabs]

...

This soil is resting and for use this spring.

Thanks for sharing your expertise.

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=65374&pictureid=1691409&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]

surely the numbers will change in the next months, maybe even drastically, depending on what kind of decomposition you got going on in there, you plan on testing again once its ready?

 

[neverforget4/20]

surely the numbers will change in the next months, maybe even drastically, depending on what kind of decomposition you got going on in there, you plan on testing again once its ready?

Good point.

This is an outdoor covered bed (39N, soil will freeze solid). When I first got this report the rec was to test out light feather meal amendment and observe. I dressed the bed with the feather meal and covered it for winter.

A portion of this mix got used in a couple of indoor 7 gals. These plants are at 21days 12/12, doing well.

I would normally decide on retesting in spring after these plants finish up, after having observed the usefulness of feathermeal. I wasn't thinking that a covered, over wintering process would change things much. But for 25$ it makes sense to get some solid data.

If you have any experience predicting the key changes I might expect to see from over wintering please share, I'm very interested.

 

[TnTLabs]

ok, i wasnt aware that it would freeze for most of the time.
i assumed you ment that it would decompose further until spring... but this seems to be not the case... yes feathermeal i have used as well, works very well

 

[TnTLabs]

Good point.

This is an outdoor covered bed (39N, soil will freeze solid). When I first got this report the rec was to test out light feather meal amendment and observe. I dressed the bed with the feather meal and covered it for winter.

A portion of this mix got used in a couple of indoor 7 gals. These plants are at 21days 12/12, doing well.[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=65374&pictureid=1693082&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]

I would normally decide on retesting in spring after these plants finish up, after having observed the usefulness of feathermeal. I wasn't thinking that a covered, over wintering process would change things much. But for 25$ it makes sense to get some solid data.

If you have any experience predicting the key changes I might expect to see from over wintering please share, I'm very interested.

they look in perfect health! good job

 

[VortexPower420]

Radionics really interests me.

After I read "A Biodynamic Farm". I stired all my teas for 1 hour using biodynamic inputs, that didn't last long and I built one of Steve storch's vortex brewers (hence the nane vortexpower).

I was thinking about getting that going again.

When I get my 20 gals going again they are all getting a lumarian quartz mandala.

I am a big believer in forces we can not detect but there is proof it is all around us.

I do love Hugh's approach of mix esoteric though and hard science. It really adds validity to what he does.

 

[HillMizer]

outdoors i wont change other than less mg up front to make room for higher ca and no k add at the end lol.

but indo, in peat based soil, if i get ca up to 85% and want pH around 6 i have no room for mg or k

Is the CEC the factor at hand here? Your clay beds outdoor have a higher CEC? At a PH of 6 then most rest of your sites will be holding hydrogen?
Does soil volume have any influence on the feasibility of this situation?