Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[slownickel]

Manganese boron and phos are all available at 7. Why would they be unavailable ? B and mn are more available at 6 , but not nearly close to absent at 7 ? Is that what you were referring to not available at 7?

Daddy,

Mn and Cu are super pH sensitive.

I just ran back and pulled all of last years soil analysis from all over the globe. Anywhere between 30 and 60% of Mn becomes unavailable to the plant at a pH of 7.

For copper, it is 90% or more that becomes unavailable at a pH of 7!

Does that bother me? No. Why? I just apply my metals to the soil with enzymes or citric acid to the lower the pH. Or I am making enzymes and clay mixes with copper and manganese and then spiking it into the soil.

Mn availability also FALLS as organic material levels increase.

So how can we achieve more Ca than 85% in a pH of 6.2 to 6.5?

Any takers?

 

[plantingplants]

Anywhere between 30 and 60% of Mn becomes unavailable to the plant at a pH of 7.

In mineral soil or organic...


Slow, I've seen you say a couple times that our soils come close to mineral soils as they break down. Is there a metric for determining if soil is mineral or organic? OM %?

 

[biggreg]

So how can we achieve more Ca than 85% in a pH of 6.2 to 6.5?

Any takers?

With gypsum, you could displace all the other cations without a ph increase in most cases.

Using the CEC @ph7.0 as a scale, you might could get 90% Ca and 10% H at a field ph of 6.5

If using the "effective" CEC@ph 6.5 as a scale, you could hit 100% Ca at a field ph 6.5. using gypsum.

Which scale / method/ calculation do you use to find a CEC to base your ratio on?

 

[Natural Farmer]

I spoke with a scientist who measures soil respiration and he offered to chart the dynamics of my soil mix to see how much CO2 is produced in a 24 hour period using the test seen at 48:10 on this video. I will post the results here as well once I get them back. I am not sure however if his tests will pickup on the carbonates but we will see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=behAQzwdnzs

 

[slownickel]

In mineral soil or organic...


Slow, I've seen you say a couple times that our soils come close to mineral soils as they break down. Is there a metric for determining if soil is mineral or organic? OM %?


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They have a formula or table at the lab, but they won't release it.

 

[biggreg]

They have a formula or table at the lab, but they won't release it.

I was told by the lab that pasted those charts on their website that the Mehlich 3 wasn't designed for "unnatural" soils and was meant for mineral soil.

The North Carolina department of Ag where Dr. Mehlich developed his universal Mehlich 3 extract uses a soil classification system of humic matter%, weight/volume and color on incoming samples to determine if the soil is organic, mineral-organic or mineral before giving class specific reccomendations

NCDA has been running Mehlich 3s on "unnatural" cultivated and heavily amended peat soils since the 80's

 

[biggreg]

They have a formula or table at the lab, but they won't release it.

Must be proprietary?

For us laymen, we could look in the encyclopedia:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histosol

Basically anything over 20% organic matter is considered an organic soil or histosol.

 

[slownickel]

Must be proprietary?

For us laymen, we could look in the encyclopedia:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histosol

Basically anything over 20% organic matter is considered an organic soil or histosol.

I answered the wrong question... I was referring to the Mn and Cu indexes at Spectrum. That is what I was referring to as proprietary.

 

[HappyTreeFarm]

Ive been following your posts for awhile now, not much of one to participate in the forum exchange, but now I'm ready to join your thread for the better of information exchange and learning. i really appreciate the free flow of information running through you guys, much respect. through some recent research done by Kempf on micro nutrient availability, they have found that metal mobility is only effective through foliar or soluble chelated liquid drench with the exception of Zn. Not sure if you guys care but sap analysis is an amazing new tech for learning about crop response.


Also, on a side note, I've heard so much negative talk about using coco in your mixes. could some of you clarify your opinions on why it is so shitty and why i shouldn't use it anymore. personally i hate peat based mixes. is it just cause of the potential Na content? from unwashed material?

 

[slownickel]

Ive been following your posts for awhile now, not much of one to participate in the forum exchange, but now I'm ready to join your thread for the better of information exchange and learning. i really appreciate the free flow of information running through you guys, much respect.

.

Much appreciated.

through some recent research done by Kempf on micro nutrient availability, they have found that metal mobility is only effective through foliar or soluble chelated liquid drench with the exception of Zn.

Not sure if it was Kempf's words or yours. Foliar metals can never replace soil applied metals. Metals are not mobile from foliar applications and move only smidgens within the plant.

Soil applications are what is necessary. I don't buy into that chelated soil application stuff. That is a sales ploy. Sulfates applied to the soil work just fine. If you have a pH over 6.5 or so, a good Korean enzyme made of fruit and sugar once or twice a week or citric acid mixed with your twice weekly applications of your metals in correct proportions are what is critical.

I recommend getting some good clay, mixing it with enzymes and your Manganese well. Make it into a pancake and cut it into slices and let it dry into thin bricks.. Then take that mix and spike it in to several spots in your pot per the dosage you are going to need. Organic material makes Mn availability go down, not up. In clay, it works wonders.

Also, on a side note, I've heard so much negative talk about using coco in your mixes. could some of you clarify your opinions on why it is so shitty and why i shouldn't use it anymore. personally i hate peat based mixes. is it just cause of the potential Na content? from unwashed material?

I don't have a problem with coco. Just beware of using the fine material, get the thick stuff. Make sure of what is in it. High Na? Conductivity with distilled water?

You need to find what is available locally. Here there are lots of rice hulls. Peat is imported. Rice hulls take forever to breakdown. Lots of airspace with rice hulls.

Depends on what you are trying to do and what is available locally. Do the pots have to be moved? You planting in soil? Raised beds? If in pots, is weight an issue?

I use a bit of limestone rock with my rice hulls, especially at the bottom of the pots as I know everything is going to go flying to the bottom.

 

[jidoka]

you might be surprised slow. take co for example. one can mark it with a radioactive isotope and then chelate it. sprayed on a leaf it takes 8 minutes for the co to show up at the root tip where it nurishes microbbes

 

[slownickel]

you might be surprised slow. take co for example. one can mark it with a radioactive isotope and then chelate it. sprayed on a leaf it takes 8 minutes for the co to show up at the root tip where it nurishes microbbes

Co is fairly mobile in the plant, no argument there.

My particular worries are due to lack of mobility in the plant applying foliarly are the "major metals" zinc, manganese, copper and iron. The foliars paint a pretty picture, but don't really change yields much. Fix the metals at the soil level and you can bump yields heavily. The amount of Co that is needed in the plant is minuscule compared to the the "major metals".

 

[jidoka]

it is not needed by the plant. co feeds microbes...microbes feed plants in a proper system

 

[jidoka]

i honestly dont know about the other micros

 

[slownickel]

it is not needed by the plant. co feeds microbes...microbes feed plants in a proper system

Cobalt is an essential element and helps control metal balance within the plant.

Have seen some super interesting response in mango and citrus getting metals to better balance themselves. Seems like some sort of auto-regulator of sorts.

 

[orechron]

I recommend getting some good clay, mixing it with enzymes and your Manganese well. Make it into a pancake and cut it into slices and let it dry into thin bricks.. Then take that mix and spike it in to several spots in your pot per the dosage you are going to need. Organic material makes Mn availability go down, not up. In clay, it works wonders.

I'm picturing you convincing your kids to make mud pies.

I second the sulfates being just fine. I've had great results from manganese sulfate. Zinc sulfate, I'm not so sure yet.

 

[jidoka]

imo sulfates get swallowed by microbes...that chelates them and they become highly available. otherwise how do forests happen

fuckin john twists words to sell shit...fuck him

 

[HappyTreeFarm]

it that what is happening,just trying to sell their products. i will responded to your guys comments tonight when i have more time. Jidoka i wanted your opinion on coco I've read that you hate the shit, can you info me the reasons for that?

 

[jidoka]

yea...i said a few pages ago. did you read it

 

[slownickel]

I'm picturing you convincing your kids to make mud pies.

I second the sulfates being just fine. I've had great results from manganese sulfate. Zinc sulfate, I'm not so sure yet.

Just get enough zinc on. Many people are afraid to put on enough.

JIDOKA how much zinc you putting on in your mixes? You are applying corrective quantities of zinc and then adding more throughout the season?

Realize that zinc and phosphorus go hand in hand. Without one, the other suffers.