Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[jidoka]

without excess carbonate in your soil at a ph of 6.4 you will have 10% h attached to your cec sites . it is claimed lightweight organic soil performs better at a ph of 6...which means maybe 13%h. that leaves 87% for all cations.

at 85% ca you wpuld have 2% left for mg, k, na and micros. do you drive it calcareous or fertilize all that stuff at the better ph. that is what i am curious about slows opinion

 

[HillMizer]

without excess carbonate in your soil at a ph of 6.4 you will have 10% h attached to your cec sites . it is claimed lightweight organic soil performs better at a ph of 6...which means maybe 13%h. that leaves 87% for all cations.

at 85% ca you wpuld have 2% left for mg, k, na and micros. do you drive it calcareous or fertilize all that stuff at the better ph. that is what i am curious about slows opinion

Thanks for elaborating. I just loaded down my new indoor with calcium. Mostly cal sulphate and dicalcium phosphate. The samples are in the mail. We'll see in a few days.

 

[jidoka]

did you base the add on a test/calculation?

 

[HillMizer]

Me? I just made a soil from scratch with no tests and went on vacation and told my dude to plant it up. I based it on a recipe I've been modifying for years. It started as Tom Hill's recipe. It doesn't take account for compost variables. Figured I'd fix it on the fly.

 

[slownickel]

without excess carbonate in your soil at a ph of 6.4 you will have 10% h attached to your cec sites . it is claimed lightweight organic soil performs better at a ph of 6...which means maybe 13%h. that leaves 87% for all cations.

at 85% ca you wpuld have 2% left for mg, k, na and micros. do you drive it calcareous or fertilize all that stuff at the better ph. that is what i am curious about slows opinion

It is the "it is claimed" part I want to hear more about.

And where does that pH and H % correlation come from? I have always wondered if that even existed.

And what is the pH of your water and ppms?

 

[Space Case]

slow i got a real question...no fookin about.

if i take a peat based soil and managed to load the ce sites with 85% ca and nothing else my pH is gonna be close to 6...yeah? 6 is where organic soils have the best uptake of elements.

this would be indo cause fuck organic soils outside.

because of all of the organic matter i can surely also hold all of the phosphate i need. i would have to fertilize everything else but it would allow me to use enzymatically digested fish vs nitrate.

am i crazy...about this plan...i will admit to crazy about other things

Whats wrong with organic soils outdoors? I guess I should know first hand. Lack of control? Also now that I'm reading Tiejens, what kind of calcium are you saturating those sites with?

I'm leaning towards a mix of mostly peat, some aeration, and coco for pH stability, and only gypsum as my Ca source. No alkaline calcium sources to buffer that peat, because of the carbonates in my water. Just let the peat naturally acidify, and hopefully the CaCO3 breaks down from the acidifying peat at a roughly equal rate that the source water causes it to build up!

 

[Space Case]

I think you'd end up chasing too many different nutrient issues. I'd be hesitant to go that route considering how well your clay did last year.

That clay mix is no joke. I have moms in 20gal pots indoors and you aren't even scooting them around on the tables without a pulling hernia!

I'd like a lighter mix indoors merely for reasons of physical logistics.

 

[slownickel]

Whats wrong with organic soils outdoors? I guess I should know first hand. Lack of control? Also now that I'm reading Tiejens, what kind of calcium are you saturating those sites with?

I'm leaning towards a mix of mostly peat, some aeration, and coco for pH stability, and only gypsum as my Ca source. No alkaline calcium sources to buffer that peat, because of the carbonates in my water. Just let the peat naturally acidify, and hopefully the CaCO3 breaks down from the acidifying peat at a roughly equal rate that the source water causes it to build up!

Mmmmm got that all calculated out do ya? LMAO

 

[plantingplants]

Lol can you speak on that a little more, slow? I fancy his idea. I've been trying to figure out how to lighten my mix (more idiotproof) and keep my ph down and shitty water in check (you know, all 285 mg/kg caco3)

 

[jidoka]

Whats wrong with organic soils outdoors? I guess I should know first hand. Lack of control? Also now that I'm reading Tiejens, what kind of calcium are you saturating those sites with?

I'm leaning towards a mix of mostly peat, some aeration, and coco for pH stability, and only gypsum as my Ca source. No alkaline calcium sources to buffer that peat, because of the carbonates in my water. Just let the peat naturally acidify, and hopefully the CaCO3 breaks down from the acidifying peat at a roughly equal rate that the source water causes it to build up!

Listen to your own sentence...hopefully the carbonate from your water breaks down based on peat and then it might work. That is way to much guessing for me. It sounds kinda like if I be a good boy all my life then magical sky daddy will send me to Valhalla...shiny and chrome. Nice wish but what are the actual odds. Plus gypsum definitely has a place but nothing but gypsum you are gonna push out some K for sure.

Get an injector ahead of your holding tank and treat your water so you don't have to guess...N Phuric maybe

Plus even if I gotta fuck with it in Denver I hate coco. Getting it alive is a bitch. I got a sample heading for microbe testing now if they listened (always a question). Plus because it is acidic peat gives you more room to make amendments...Ca.

That is why I said what I did.

 

[jidoka]

It is the "it is claimed" part I want to hear more about.

I don't know if this one is true or not. The claimed is based on the pH charts in Biggreg's thread. I have personally run organic soil at a ph of 6.8 and it seemed to work OK but I have not tried at 6. Guess I oughta give it a shot.

And where does that pH and H % correlation come from? I have always wondered if that even existed.

This one I can absolutely true from enough personal experience until you hit a pH of 7. Run the experiments yourself...create a few different acid soils at various ph between 6 and 7 and get M3s on all of them...uou will see it with your own eyes.

And what is the pH of your water and ppms?

ph is 7.8 and total alkalinity is 56 ppm CaCO3 equivalents. It has very little buffering ability. I suspect they use a base like KOH to create that pH so as not to leach shit off pipes...it wouldn't take much.

And I am not saying at all the a calcareous clay loaded with 85% Ca can't outperform an acid clay at 70. I don't know that answer...I was asking your opinion.

Where I have my doubt is the ability to create a soil that remains acid but has 85% Ca.

Please don't read anymore into it than that. And I will build an 85% Ca soil....acid or not...and run a test vs my lower Ca acid soils

 

[orechron]

Space I definitely second the injection recommendation. N-pHuric is needed at such low amounts that it really doesn't contribute a lot of extra nitrogen. The other half is sulfuric and it'll help with your alkaline native soil.

Where I have my doubt is the ability to create a soil that remains acid but has 85% Ca.

I don't see how it is possible. Then we come to the discussion over how much soil pH matters.

In clay topsoil, 6.4-6.6pH has produced the best realists for me as far as quality, yield, insect and fungal resistance.

In high organic matter mixes 6.6pH has also produced great results but very quickly cation deficiencies show up because the media just doesn't have the capacity to hold as much as clay. When it creeps down towards 6.0pH the deficiencies were worse and the sap pH drops as well. This round I over loaded up to 7.0-7.3pH anticipating the drop mid way through the run and it's going to be a good round, but not my best.

 

[daddylonglegs]

I started my last year outdoor at 8.0 , Michigan, 43' lat. because of the rain and decomp throughout season. Vegging stage really seemed to enjoy . This was also recommended at the local compost / soil yards and MSU agriculture department . The two samples that came back after season were 6.5 and 6.8 .
A few pots had some issues for sure , but I'm thinking was more balance of ferts. Spectrum comes back soon for full analysis .

 

[biggreg]

My understanding is that:

The CEC of soil at 7.0ph is a standard measurement for the soil survey, engineering, and pollution remediation side of soil testing. It's a standard scale to report cation ratios with. At 100% base saturation on this scale, the soil solution should be 7.0

CEC is ph dependent and will continue to climb with ph. CEC at ph 8.2 is larger than CEC at ph 7.0. 100% base saturation of the CEC measured at 8.2ph would have a ph of 8.2.

Albrecht ratios are based on a CEC at 7.0 standard scale.

As far as ph target reccomendations for peaty soils, check out Michigan state's dual guidelines for mineral soil and for organic soil ( Michigan muck). Also check out North Carolina department of Ag's guidance on target ph of various crops grown on mineral soil vs the fibric peaty blacklands there ( organic soils) .

Also, check out Dr. Tripepi's U of Idaho articles on container soils, CEC and ph.

Across the pond in Europe, I've seen peatland vs mineral soil reccomendations as well

All are in agreement on a lower target ph in organic soils vs mineral soils.

They all agree at least ph 5 but warning not to be over ph 6 in organic soils unless significant mineral soil happens to be in the mix.

The standard North Carolina DA recommendation for ph targets 5.0 organic soils, 5.5 min-organic soils and 6.0 for mineral soils. With some crops requiring higher ph in that range.


Maybe there is something to this organic matter-based soil having a differing nutrient availability at a given ph vs a mineral soil? I don't know. The info I've dug up is new to me too.

Everything I've referenced is linked or attached in my soil testing thread.

The best looking nutrient availability at a given ph charts of organic matter based soils vs mineral soils I've found is from these guys:

http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/doc/library/articles/soil_buffer_ph

 

[daddylonglegs]

So ph should be based on what type of media ? mineral based higher ph ? Is that what I just understood from your statement ? Whereas a organic soil would benefit from lower ?

Thanks by the way for that info

 

[daddylonglegs]

Very interesting if so , that's new to me .

I'll have several dif spectrum results back soon , for more info, along with a few common on the market like fox farms soils and aurora , unless they are already posted and dissected elsewhere .

 

[biggreg]

So ph should be based on what type of media ? mineral based higher ph ? Is that what I just understood from your statement ? Whereas a organic soil would benefit from lower ?

Thanks by the way for that info

I can't tell you from direct experience.
I can just point to the info.

Also, if I have the CEC stuff wrong, someone correct it. My fuzzy understanding is often wrong..

But CEC @8.2 > [email protected] > CEC @ 6.0 > CEC > 5.0 is correct
And base cation ratios can be based on a CEC of the soil at a any ph.
If we want to compare apples to apples, using the CEC of your soil at ph 7.0 sounds like a decent plan.

I sent a sample of soil to U Idaho with a ph of 5.7. Had them run the barium. Test for CEC @ 5.7 ( 33meq/100g) and the AA7.0 CEC-7test for CEC @ 7.0.( 40 meq/100g) on the same sample side by side.

 

[plantingplants]

So less than halfway thru flower I had a soil solution pH of 7. Mn, B, and P totally unavailable. Why didnt i just lower it...

 

[daddylonglegs]

Manganese boron and phos are all available at 7. Why would they be unavailable ? B and mn are more available at 6 , but not nearly close to absent at 7 ? Is that what you were referring to not available at 7?

 

[biggreg]

Manganese boron and phos are all available at 7. Why would they be unavailable ? B and mn are more available at 6 , but not nearly close to absent at 7 ? Is that what you were referring to not available at 7?

http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/doc/library/articles/soil_buffer_ph

Scroll to the bottom of that page and find two differing charts. One for mineral soils and one for organic soils. Compare the 6.0 and 6.5 ph lines on both.