Looking for stable/homogeneous seeds from North America (in EU)

[Ankermann]

Hi everyone!

Edit: I am looking for genetics, that don't exist. Weakening the questions:

• Which strains by which breeder are recommended for a small scale (6 plants) indoor grow at home;
• Is pheno hunting a necessity in this setting;
• is there any breeder that stabilizes their post-2000 genetics against herming and/or reducing variability?

Or more openly: If you had to start over with such a small grow, what breeder and strain would you chose and why?
Sadly this questions get so generic that it starts to resemble every what is your favorite breeder question at this point.

Original post starting from here:

TL;DR at the bottom.
Fellow grower from Germany here.
Since the legalization I want to begin growing indoors and am looking for strains to start.
Germans seem to be more conservative and mostly prefer classical/old strains while the NA folks swim in 'their' genetics.
I want to dip my toes into both philosophies and try some classic as well as modern North American strains.
Since I am not trusting cuts around here I will have to work with seeds. I am limited to a maximum of six plants, so pheno as well as sex hunting is something I really want to avoid.
What I am looking for, listed by decreasing priority:

1. Homogeneous seeds, i.e. plants from seeds do not differ by much. If multiple phenotypes exist, it should be few and every pheno should be worth growing out and harvesting;
2. tendency of herming as low as possible;
3. available in the EU (e.g. via reputable reseller) - seeds found at the EU border can (and if found will) be seized;
4. preference for "the" original breeder of a strain or small breeders in general;
5. feminized seeds over regular ones, no auto.

Can you point in the direction of such breeders and if possible, also specific strains?

Since I tend to write extensive questions/posts, additional information, questions and "thinking aloud" are packed into the spoilers below.

Spoiler: My plan regarding growing (space, medium, form of consumption). Experience with growing so far.

Starting end of September I want to try out multiple strains (two to four) the first and maybe second grow as well.
Limited by law to six plants at home.
Growing space will be quite small, roughly around 10 ft² / 1 m² (4 ft x 2.5 ft / 120 cm x 80 cm).
The first grow(s) will be on soil and later I would like to switch to DWC.
If falling in love with a strain, keeping a mother plant is an option for future grows.
Ice hash or maybe even pressing rosin would be the ultimate goal, but with such a small growing space I am not sure if that would be even worth it. For flower I use a Tinymight.

My experience with indoor grown cannabis has been only medical cannabis so far, which, at least to me, is all the same with different names and price tags. They all get me high but the high as well as the taste does not differ by much, if at all.
I have grown outdoor (guerrilla, more than 10 years ago), so I know how sturdy cannabis grows outside in an unconstricted space. There the quality was all over the place and so was the taste as well as the high. Strains were a quite ordinary selection (off the top of my head: KC33, Mango, Frisian Dew, Hollands Hope, Mandala #1, Pure Power Plant).

Spoiler: Breeders and strains that caught my eye and questions about them.

First, the classical strains:
AK47 by Serious Seeds and Black Widow (only reg.?) by Mr Nice Seeds. Both strains (as well as breeders) are considered stable and homogeneous in Germany. Are these all time classics or living off of their big names?
Mandala (Satori fem.) and ACE Seeds (Golden Tiger fem.) are also considered well selected and stabilized true F1 hybrids around here.
Kwik Seeds has a C99, called Cindy 99, which is "the result of recombining two pure, parallel Cinderella 99 lines using a total of 18 parent plants.". Wappa by Paradise Seeds is a classic in a german-speaking forum.
Karma Genetics as well as Connoisseur Genetics (SSSDH, El Valle Haze, Permafunk, Gulupa) are looking fine as well.

Now, the NA genetics:
When I looked for breeders satisfying (some, if not most of) my requirements, the following names popped up: Archive Seed Bank and CSI Humboldt.
Any individual strains that might be especially fitting to my needs and wants?
What about

• Dark Horse Genetics (Bruce Banner (#3));
• Rare Dankness (Ghost Train Haze #1);
• Blueberry Cupcake/Muffin/Pancakes and PPD by Humboldt Seed Company;
• Ethos (besides the drama)?

Sadly, a lot of these strains are hard or impossible to get by. Mostly sold out or via sketchy resellers, if they ever were available inside the EU to begin with.

As promised tl; dr
Growing indoor in a small space, 10 ft² / 1 m².
Growing from seed, no pheno hunting, ideally feminized seeds.
Looking for (NA) breeders and strains with homogeneous seeds, low herm rate, available in EU, original or small breeder preferred.

I appreciate any input, thanks for the help!
Ankermann

 

[JetLife175]

Everything is so god damned inbred these days you won't have trouble finding anything.

Literally they are EVERYWHERE.

Only thing you really need to worry about is stability.

You have to understand that you are literally looking for the perfect line. I been at this a long time and I'm gonna have to tell you, ain't gonna happen.

 

[Ankermann]

Everything is so god damned inbred these days you won't have trouble finding anything.

Wait, I am not sure I understand correctly what you were writing.
What do you mean by finding anything of what exactly?

What does the genetic bottleneck of modern polyhybrids have to do with stability in general?
I am more looking for "horizontal stability" among the same generation, rather then "vertical stability downwards" where further (inbred) generations express the same phenotypes.

You said I was looking for the perfect line. Is it unrealistic to ask for seeds that are homogeneous?
"True" F1 hybrics created with IBLs or at least stable (vertically, e.g. >F5) parental lines should result in quite homogeneous F1 seeds, while F2 is all over the place. So the breeder isn't loosing money since the customer cannot reproduce the same plants via seeds easily.
Is there no modern breeder that does true F1 hybrids or stabilizes their genetics by other means?
If not, what is the point of buying seeds from breeder A over B, if is is all like playing the lottery?
Certainly it is in the interest of breeders to stabilize certain positive as well as negative traits such that the get a higher change of expression respectively missing of such.

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

What you want is not doable. Modern strains, that are only a couple years old did not have the time required to stabilize them.
Small breeders do not have the plant count to create stable lines. There's bound to be more variability because they cant see if 100 seeds are homogeneous. They rarely grow 100 of the same seeds to test their lines.

The concept of "F1 hybrids" is a bit meh for cannabis. Everyone touts how rapidly genetic diversity declines but if you look at commercial crops, that have been stabilized for decades. Cannabis is far from stability. Without stable lines you can't reliably create F1s.


Commercial operations are aware of that and that is why you have concepts like pheno hunting, mother plants and tissue culture. A reliable seed stock would be much, much cheaper than that. But consistency in the grow room is required for high intensity agriculture and noone offers seeds for that.

 

[Ankermann]

What you want is not doable. Modern strains, that are only a couple years old did not have the time required to stabilize them.
Small breeders do not have the plant count to create stable lines. There's bound to be more variability because they cant see if 100 seeds are homogeneous. They rarely grow 100 of the same seeds to test their lines.

The concept of "F1 hybrids" is a bit meh for cannabis. Everyone touts how rapidly genetic diversity declines but if you look at commercial crops, that have been stabilized for decades. Cannabis is far from stability. Without stable lines you can't reliably create F1s.


Commercial operations are aware of that and that is why you have concepts like pheno hunting, mother plants and tissue culture. A reliable seed stock would be much, much cheaper than that. But consistency in the grow room is required for high intensity agriculture and noone offers seeds for that.

Hmm, maybe modern is too unspecific.
I thought more about "within the last 10 - 15 years" = modern, which should be enough time to stabilize.
Most recent strains compete to be the latest shit on the block, not stable, mostly bred with famous parental genetics.

Seems very reasonable that especially small breeders do not have the infrastructure to do thorough selection and testing of their lines.
But then again, what is the point of buying seeds if variance can be all over the place? Sounds more like throwing dirt (or money) against the wall and see what sticks. Also not very efficient for small home growers.

Not sure if that helps, but what if I rephrase my questions at this point to:
What strains from which breeder is worth getting for my small scale home grow?
Is pheno hunting an absolute necessity for a home grower starting with seeds?

 

[Koondense]

My take...
In a 120x80 I would put two plants, 80x60 cm for each.
Start in 3L light mix, repot in 25L pots with a good soil mix.
Two fem varieties, I would pick ACE seeds Panama and Golden Tiger.
Veg them for 4 weeks in 3L, repot and veg for 2 more weeks, scrog and prune, flip to 12/12 and manage the tops to get as evenly spread as possible(Panama would almost certainly finish faster than GT but not by much I think).
Feed with organic nutes and get some excellent pot

F**k the hyped hybrids, they mostly sell S1's of hybrid clones so there will not be much "stability" in those seeds. The best NA breeders sell regular seeds so they're not coming in.
Lately I'm smoking runtz,og,cakes,cookies and who knows what else...they're all smililarly bland in the "high" but with nice tastes...however I have very little Amnesia x Panama and OHaze buds which are much more interesting to smoke.
It all depends on what you want for yourself.

Cheers

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

But then again, what is the point of buying seeds if variance can be all over the place?

You have seeds?

Sure it would be nice if they were higher quality but then I wouldn't mind a light that uses less electricity. Sometimes you just have to play the hand you're dealt.

 

[goingrey]

Serious Kush from Serious Seeds is advertized as uniform, is an OG Kush (USA's finest) f1 hybrid with White Russian, and comes in fem 6 packs. Sounds perfect for your needs no?

 

[JetLife175]

I'll go into a bit more detail as to why I said what I said.

Everything in the US that's coming out is either some sort of cookies or Zkittles hybrid.

These lines are notorious for instability. No one has worked them into a place where it is sexually stable.

I would take a swing at CSI Humboldts gear. Good breeding practices and solid lines.

But remember you always run the risk of getting intersex plants no matter where you source your seeds from.

 

[kro-magnon]

Like many new growers you're over thinking your future grow, the list you made is unrealistic that does not mean seeds sold doesn't have nice plants to offer even if there is a bit of variation.
Breeders with excellent seeds today:
-Karma Genetics a Dutch breeder, he offers reg and fem seeds of mainly US genetics, you can check his sub forum here for more info
-CSI Humboldt, a lot of clones selfed and crosses; I think he has only fem seeds for sale, a lot of good return from growers(they sell world wide I asked them)
-Bodhi seeds but he offers only reg seeds and there is some variation in plants but most are very high quality
-Top Dawg seed, a lot of great crosses but not easy to get in Europe
-Relentless seeds, greta seed lines but pricey
-Old SchoolGenetics, a lot of old school and recent strains only fem seeds
-In House genetics, they make only fem seeds offering some impressive plants with different phenotypes all of high quality.
I think if you buy some seeds from any of those you'll be pleased with the result of your grow.No hermaphrodites in those seeds unless you stress them, all cannabis plants can herm if stressed. There is not a single seed line offering clone like plants, cannabis genetic is too complex for that but the different phenotypes will behave the same way, the differences are usually in smells/taste and more or less resin but all at least are good to smoke.

 

[Ankermann]

So, what I am taking away so far is (surprise, surprise):
As with every new grower, stick to strains with stable and small pool of ancestors and don't fall for the hype, if one cannot source elite cuts or trust/support the breeder.

Seems like in general the NA genetics from the past 10 - 15 years are not worth it in seed form for small scale growers at this point?
Damn, at least that makes choosing strains way easier then.

My take...
In a 120x80 I would put two plants, 80x60 cm for each.
Start in 3L light mix, repot in 25L pots with a good soil mix.
Two fem varieties, I would pick ACE seeds Panama and Golden Tiger.
Veg them for 4 weeks in 3L, repot and veg for 2 more weeks, scrog and prune, flip to 12/12 and manage the tops to get as evenly spread as possible(Panama would almost certainly finish faster than GT but not by much I think).
Feed with organic nutes and get some excellent pot

F**k the hyped hybrids, they mostly sell S1's of hybrid clones so there will not be much "stability" in those seeds. The best NA breeders sell regular seeds so they're not coming in.
Lately I'm smoking runtz,og,cakes,cookies and who knows what else...they're all smililarly bland in the "high" but with nice tastes...however I have very little Amnesia x Panama and OHaze buds which are much more interesting to smoke.
It all depends on what you want for yourself.

Cheers

Oof, first indoor grow with 12-16 weeks flowering strains, going all in. Wanted to do that as a second grow or in stages via veggie and flower part of the room. Certainly better to reduce the number of different strains, especially in such a small space.
As you implied in the last paragraph, I have to find, what I like. That's why I wanted to mix different strains from different "breeding cultures".

You have seeds?

Sure it would be nice if they were higher quality but then I wouldn't mind a light that uses less electricity. Sometimes you just have to play the hand you're dealt.

No, for over a decade I have none.
I mean... it just kind of sounds like that it is not worth getting seeds of strains from within the last decade because (allegedly) everything is the same and they herm like crazy.
I have had plants from seeds that were quite uniform or had only two different phenotypical expressions out of 6 (female) to 10 (regular) seeds.

Serious Kush from Serious Seeds is advertized as uniform, is an OG Kush (USA's finest) f1 hybrid with White Russian, and comes in fem 6 packs. Sounds perfect for your needs no?

Serious Seeds is mentioned a lot, being the (European) authority on well bred strains. Sounds very nice, I certainly want to grow at least one of their strains.
I am curious what's on the other side of the pond. The Americans seem to shit all over European genetics, be it because they are robust but boring or they can not keep up with American genetics these days, whatever this might mean exactly.
There are some sound arguments for that, like the legal status of cannabis in Canada, Mexiko (anything interesting from there?) and some US states. Or that the breeding scene is bigger, more diverse and kinda more involved than in Europe.
But then the rate of new strains released always raises eyebrows if these perform from seed as advertised or if the American market lives off of so called elite clones, making massive pheno hunts necessary to separate shit from gold.

I'll go into a bit more detail as to why I said what I said.

Everything in the US that's coming out is either some sort of cookies or Zkittles hybrid.

These lines are notorious for instability. No one has worked them into a place where it is sexually stable.

I would take a swing at CSI Humboldts gear. Good breeding practices and solid lines.

But remember you always run the risk of getting intersex plants no matter where you source your seeds from.

Ok, pretty clear to me now. The lineage is huge in depth as well as width with up to 10 or more different recent strains crossed in (e.g. Permanent Marker). But there are some American genetics with way smaller pool of ancestry like Gelato #33 with a "depth" of three and Sour Diesel with a "depth" of four.
This might be enough to work with stabilized ancestors in every crossing step.

Like many new growers you're over thinking your future grow, the list you made is unrealistic that does not mean seeds sold doesn't have nice plants to offer even if there is a bit of variation.
Breeders with excellent seeds today:
[...]
No hermaphrodites in those seeds unless you stress them, all cannabis plants can herm if stressed. There is not a single seed line offering clone like plants, cannabis genetic is too complex for that but the different phenotypes will behave the same way, the differences are usually in smells/taste and more or less resin but all at least are good to smoke.

Yeah, I wanted to optimize as much as possible form the genetic point.
Hermaphrodites should be a reduced risk, but I get that it is natural that they can always occur. To my understanding a lot of polyhybrids and selfed strains tend to produces hermaphrodites quite often though.
Thank you for the list of breeders though, lot's of names getting mentioned over and over again when looking for stability and "well bred" lines.

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

No, for over a decade I have none.
I mean... it just kind of sounds like that it is not worth getting seeds of strains from within the last decade because (allegedly) everything is the same and they herm like crazy.
I have had plants from seeds that were quite uniform or had only two different phenotypical expressions out of 6 (female) to 10 (regular) seeds.

You asked what the point of buying seeds is, even if they are less than ideal quality. And yea, the point is to have seeds because the smoke will still be good. It just takes some work of the part of the grower.

What I'm trying to say is that "Gelato" (or whatever hype strain in circulation) is not a defined concept. There are research papers where they buy the same branded weed in 50 dispenseries in a city. They get about 30 wildly different compositions of flavour and aroma.
Pick a breeder that is established, try their beans and discover what you like. Learning is fun.

 

[dilettante]

That's why I wanted to mix different strains from different "breeding cultures".

Wait a second! Didn't you say that you are looking for seed to grow 6 uniform plants? If you gonna mix, then the requirement of super stable lines is moot.

Just get whatever tickles your fancy. You already did your research.

I did my first grow 18 years ago with Female Seeds Grapefruit. All 4 plants were the same, had a heavenly smell, a great energetic party high, easy to grow and didn't take too long. In all seriousness it was the best grow I ever had.

 

[Ankermann]

You asked what the point of buying seeds is, even if they are less than ideal quality. And yea, the point is to have seeds because the smoke will still be good. It just takes some work of the part of the grower.

What I'm trying to say is that "Gelato" (or whatever hype strain in circulation) is not a defined concept. There are research papers where they buy the same branded weed in 50 dispenseries in a city. They get about 30 wildly different compositions of flavour and aroma.
Pick a breeder that is established, try their beans and discover what you like. Learning is fun.

It sounded like "we gotta work with what we got, no matter how shitty it is" as if the seed market was exclusively unstable seeds. Lucky enough not to get industry hemp, at this point.

Yeah, while cleaning I listened to a podcast about the concept or as they put it business model of cookies, zkittlez, etc. Dunno how much of that is true, I kind of don't trust a bunch of dudes just associating stuff. They for certain have their own agenda they consciously or subconsciously promote or at least defend.
Anyway, the hype strains I am not interested in, just what ever is newer than from the previous millennium. And that seems to come out from North America.
I already watched a video a couple of years ago, how strain (names) don't mean shit. I think it was about indica vs sativa, that there are no genetic markers to justify such a classification from a genetic point of view. That the (allegedly) same strains do differ among themselves was a byproduct of the sequencing of the genes. Does not make it easier, but I won't compare strain X from breeder A to the same strain X from breeder B (unless they are (allegedly) off the same mother plant for example).

Wait a second! Didn't you say that you are looking for seed to grow 6 uniform plants? If you gonna mix, then the requirement of super stable lines is moot.

Just get whatever tickles your fancy. You already did your research.

I did my first grow 18 years ago with Female Seeds Grapefruit. All 4 plants were the same, had a heavenly smell, a great energetic party high, easy to grow and didn't take too long. In all seriousness it was the best grow I ever had.

No... but now that you wrote that, yes, you make a very valid and important point.

Even if the plants are clone likes, mixing different strains will most likely result in a heterogen canopy altogether, that is true.
But that is not so much why I want uniform seedlings. I want them, so I knew every time I pop a seed, what I will most likely harvest.
Especially if I first want to try out, let's say four to ten strains the first couple of grows. Would be a shame I like strain A, because I just got lucky out of two seeds and got nice phenos of an otherwise very instable phenotyping breed.
Or the other way around, that I dislike a specific strain because of the two plants are grew (or even single one!) I just got the unlucky phenotype, that does not appeal to me.

So the uniformity from seed is mostly such that I can decide within a very limited amount of plants/grows, how it turns out and if I like it or not.
It is not (strictly) for the purpose of a uniform canopy or synchronized grow cycles. Otherwise posting ACE's Golden Tiger and Wappa by Paradise Seeds in the OP would already contradict that.

 

[goingrey]

Serious Seeds is mentioned a lot, being the (European) authority on well bred strains. Sounds very nice, I certainly want to grow at least one of their strains.
I am curious what's on the other side of the pond. The Americans seem to shit all over European genetics, be it because they are robust but boring or they can not keep up with American genetics these days, whatever this might mean exactly.
There are some sound arguments for that, like the legal status of cannabis in Canada, Mexiko (anything interesting from there?) and some US states. Or that the breeding scene is bigger, more diverse and kinda more involved than in Europe.
But then the rate of new strains released always raises eyebrows if these perform from seed as advertised or if the American market lives off of so called elite clones, making massive pheno hunts necessary to separate shit from gold.

That might have been the case 10 years ago but now most European seed banks are working with the same genetics as the Americans, OG Kush, Cookies, Zkittlez and hybrids thereof...

I'm not super experienced with these modern ("USA") strains but with the limited experience I have the main difference is in taste. Where as the older ("European") stuff often required a trained palate (some might say was bland), the new stuff can be a real full flavor smack in the mouth. And sure an increase in average potency but it's not like high potency strains didn't exist in the old Euro options as well. Besides that the biggest difference is in marketing... social media, rap music, whatever, and I say that in praise not jest as it is for sure a skill and one that has earned many growers a lot of money.

And sure if you come across a really good specimen take cuts and keep a mother plant around, I suppose you could even buy cuts of "elites" from Austria or wherever, but with good breeders you can expect pretty good hit rates from seed as well.

 

[kro-magnon]

With the list of breeders I gave you there is no real risk of herma unless the plants are really stressed but if you keep them happy you're good. I see you have already grown some seeds who had 2 different phenotypes in 6 females, that's the average rate you'll get in those seeds as well.
Serious Seeds could have been on the list I gave but I focused more on US based genetics. If you want to grow different crosses at the same time maybe top your plants to have a more even canopy by using poles to tie the branches and lowering them as needed.

 

[Ankermann]

That might have been the case 10 years ago but now most European seed banks are working with the same genetics as the Americans, OG Kush, Cookies, Zkittlez and hybrids thereof...

I'm not super experienced with these modern ("USA") strains but with the limited experience I have the main difference is in taste. Where as the older ("European") stuff often required a trained palate (some might say was bland), the new stuff can be a real full flavor smack in the mouth. And sure an increase in average potency but it's not like high potency strains didn't exist in the old Euro options as well. Besides that the biggest difference is in marketing... social media, rap music, whatever, and I say that in praise not jest as it is for sure a skill and one that has earned many growers a lot of money.

And sure if you come across a really good specimen take cuts and keep a mother plant around, I suppose you could even buy cuts of "elites" from Austria or wherever, but with good breeders you can expect pretty good hit rates from seed as well.

Yeah, the European breeders releasing American genetics I actively ignore them. Looks more like they are hopping on the train and trying to ride the wave as well.
The whole marketing shenanigans were only peripheral reaching me; stopped listening to new rap back when Purple Kush and White Rhino (!) were mentioned. Shit, I might be getting old at this point.
But the pictures, even the ones from home growers left a mark, I have to admit. Such trichome heavy, sugar coated buds just look alien.
And they have more taste? Damn, that kinda sounds interesting. Still not intriguing to grow though.

With the list of breeders I gave you there is no real risk of herma unless the plants are really stressed but if you keep them happy you're good. I see you have already grown some seeds who had 2 different phenotypes in 6 females, that's the average rate you'll get in those seeds as well.
Serious Seeds could have been on the list I gave but I focused more on US based genetics. If you want to grow different crosses at the same time maybe top your plants to have a more even canopy by using poles to tie the branches and lowering them as needed.

Two different phenotypes is not a biggie, as long as they are all worth keeping, I don't care too much.
@ US genetics: exactly what I asked for, thank you!
Yeah, some topping and bending the branches I wanted to try anyway. Maybe even have to elevate pots, if it get out of control. But let's see, that is something to worry more when the germination is happening (matching strains in terms of growth pattern).

 

[kro-magnon]

About keepers it is a matter of taste rather than quality, most of the plants produce high quality buds, the decision to keep one or not is made by judging which one has a better faste for you or one might have a very specific high you prefer. I don't say all seeds will give you clone elite each time but enough quality to be happy and wanting to grow it again. I usually keep plant for 3/5 runs, the longest I kept a mother was 5 years but it was an exceptional plant and a friend helped to keep her as well for this long, it helps to have friends with back-up if you lose it for any reason.

 

[revegeta666]

Yeah, the European breeders releasing American genetics I actively ignore them. Looks more like they are hopping on the train and trying to ride the wave as well.

Yeah avoid at all costs. Most of these seeds are made in Spain and no serious Spanish growers buy them. People in Europe eat them up for some reason.

Most of them buy the same bulk seeds that us Spanish growers get for free with our grow shop purchases, but resell them at 10-15 eur a pop.

The best known auto/fembank companies have no real breeders, the way they work is they befriend growers on Spanish forums, to get a hold of their clones, then reverse them and pollinate everything with everything. Then sell the seeds to fools at crazy prices without testing.

They take advantage of noobs that don't know any better, who will eat up anything that has a nice (often fake) picture on their site, and who will mindlessly promote their seeds for free on forums, all the while they work for them as testers, but paying instead of being paid

It's a very dark industry.

 

[linde]

I would stick with well known IBLs. Trainwreck, Romulan, skunk #1 etc. all the new American glamour weed isnt stable at all. Like a box of chocolates....you never know what you're gonna get.