LED and BUD QUALITY

[CharlesU Farley]

Oh that's great guys. Thank you.

I have indeed been offered both a mentor badge, and vip access. The forum gods do recognise the inputs of the individual. I have declined, but if I can nick his badge, that would be just too funny to deny lol

In addition to recognizing your contributions in my short time here, you're also one of the very few participants here on ICM who can disagree, without being disagreeable. For that sir, you have my respect.

I wish I could be like that.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

Using two names on one thread, gets both names banned. You are not protecting your other Vet alias, by carrying on with a new one. You loose both, for trying.

edit: @Someone I forgot to quote

Remember I'm an FNG around here... who the fuck is the 10+ year Vet using a sock puppet in _this_ thread???

That shit is _unforgivable_ for this old dinosaur and gets an instant wtmkf death sentence from me.

 

[Rocket Soul]

Hi there

I’m not directing this reply to you specifically. i’m writing to anyone reading my posts on this topic. So my intention isn’t to imply you’re a certain kind of person or grower interested in this topic



I don’t measure anything when it comes to grow lights other than how much power the lights are taking from the wall socket. i look at the plants and work my way around the issues i’m having.

I think that is many times the problem with people when they try to fix things based on some numbers they read about online, regarding lighting i mean, rather than experimenting and figuring things out by themselves. Don’t get me wrong, at the beginning i had to read and learn from others as well, and i learned a lot, but i have more or less figured it out now

This doesn’t mean my grow space is dialed in. I lack space for that to do it properly, and my grows are still a struggle but at least i know what causes these issues.



Teh way i see it is, when you guys are taking it to the level of light angles and spread i think you guys are over thinking it and are moving away from solving the problems we are seeing and having.

To me light spread means how much good light coverage there’s on the canopy. When it’s taken to level of light stress from certain light angles then to me that’s over thinking it. That’ just me but i’m a lazy grower who’s just trying to work around issues i’m having. I use as much light as i possibly can and i want it as even on the canopy as i possibly can do with the gear i’m working with

I think it’s more simpler than that all the data ocd nerd shit

It’s about the much tooted getting the envirnmental factors dialed in. High enough temps and rh%, not having too much air movement around the plants and giving them little bit of calmag compared to the hid days

The only thing i have to add to this is what i say in my posts.

I see that the huge part of the problem comes from large amount of watts powering too small diode number

It’s not i have to write a book about this, guys. hah hah



I didn’t build lights to specifically test side by side but i figured this out using different kinds of light fixtures diy and plug n play kind

I built led lights with what i see now as seriously lacking diode count and those burn plants even with very low wattage –samsung diodes – then seeing the problem disappear and being able to use more wattage when the diode count was way more than the 4x i mentioned in my posts

I have used light fixtures of about the same dimensions say 35cm x 30cm in the same small tent. The other light had serious lack of diodes while the other one was a proper one with many, many more diodes using the same wattage out of the wall

The difference was so dramatic that you just did not need a measuring device.



I can see that data-tech people will take issues with what i’m talking about because this wasn’t based on side by side experiments. But believe me when i tell you guys the difference was and is so dramatic there is no question what causes it , after the other factors are dialed in, that none of you wouldn’t have needed to put a measuring instrument under the lights.

To the naysayers who have problem with what i just wrote and how i figured this out, all i’m going to say that you have to test this out yourselves

I’m not going to present data or numbers for you because you guys should do your own tests and then you will see that a low diode count is a major factor

A cheap method of doing a test is to build a strip light that has seriously low diode count and run it on 100% and see how your plants will suffer under it even with fairly low wattage. I suggest you test this by building a small veg light so you don’t have to spend a lot of money



One way around this problem is to buy over kill-level grow light for blooming that you then dial back in which case the diodes aren’t being driven so hard

Meaning, if you want to use a 500w off the wall socket led light ,let’s say Mars Hydro, don’t buy a 500w light that you will use with 100% power, buy a 800-1000w fixture that you will then run at 500W off the wall socket.I used Mars Hydro as an example i have never used their lights and i don’t how many diodes their lights come with. i just used it as an example to illustrate my point

Of course the over kill-way costs more money but it is waht it is.



It’s fine if you people want to debate me if you have run tests on this or have personal experiences but i’m not going to debate data nerds who just want to argue my case without bothering to try it out for themselves

I hope you guys understand where i’m coming from with this

I’m almost 50 yo and i don’t have any interest in childish bullshit circle jerking. I’m not here to brag about shit, i’m not seeking attention or to create some online guru status and i don’t make shit up – if i say something happened in a certain way then that’s what happened.

All i’m interested in is giving some tips to people having the same issues i was having. Talking online won’t solve anything. eventually you have to make changes in your grow room if you’re having issues. So either you guys try out what i have been talking about or you don’t. it’s your call what you want to do



If you guys don’t see ANY difference using a low diode count light vs a light that has high number of dioedes then you can tell me i’m being wrong.it’s perfectly fine. But don’t do it before you have tried it out yourselves when all you have is speculations. Let’s behave like adults and not waste each other’s time and nerves

I hope this reply i satisfying. This is more or less all i have and can think of telling you about it

Peace guys

I dont take offense Ive tried a fair few things myself regarding diode count and diode density.

I dont see it as you though, that its either number crunching, led nerding and datasheet humping or practical experimentation: this is two separate tracks that need to inform eachother, not compete about who has the Truth. Practical tests will always have the truth but many times our conclusions arent completely solid; even if you only change diode count other factors can sneak into your tests. Especially if the tests arent side by side in the same time.

Another thing regarding the datasheets and graphs is how true are they? How many of us have actually seen a samsung lm301b tested for output rather than just a datasheet? From what i hear they always test towards the lower end of tolerance numbers; so people should be careful extrapolating from datasheet only.


If your light fixtures were the same size then theres some tentative validity in your claim. Though you could also argue whether its the actual count or its the combined area of Light Emitting Surface (the surface area of all diodes). This is what would contribute to diffuse lighting. And if you use 5630 diodes they are almost double the size of 2835.

Why im taking so much about measurements? Cause the measurements of your light emitting elements is what controls intensity underneath by governing cross lighting between the diodes. We had a badly performing light, didnt know what was going on. Narrowed the strips from 1.50m to 1.30 and its now the best performer in our grow. Just a small 10cm on each side and intensity went over the magical limit it seems.


Ive seen some similar effects (large diode count with surprisingly good results), or rather had it reported about lights i built. One guy was able to pull off fantastic numbers on some autos from only 100w in his 0.8 x0.8 m tent (around 7 square feet of surface) . That one had around 2800 diodes. Lemme see if i can dig out pics from the light and grow.

Not so shabby for 15w/square foot, though 20hours light helps a lot.


Ive also made some very high diode count lights for our own grow; 5400 diodes in base white + reds on one light. It does only marginally better than another straight white with only 2400, no big difference at all in actual yields but some in quality. In fact the 5400 tends to burn crop a little more than the 2400 light; i think it may have to do with bad thermal material of cheapo pcbs. The 5400 light tends to run slightly higher temps under it. And the 2400 light has bigger diodes generally. This may also be important; if the diode is twice as big then it will also give less intensity at same power. But also different spectrums factor in.

Sorry no pics of these lights readily available.

One of our best performing lights is also the light thay runs the highest watts per diode; GLA strips is about 800 diodes for 320w. And it never burns the plants with this type of yellowing. But sometimes it leaves albino tops.



While i have seen some of what your talking about i would tend to believe that this diode count is not the whole history. But i admit that there is more than just the data you can reach by counting from data sheets
There is a "there" out there, which i encourage you to continue studying.

 

[Sanjuro]

This may also be important; if the diode is twice as big then it will also give less intensity at same power.

This is in line with what i’m trying to say.

Yes the type and size of the chip matter. I probably didn’t articulate well enough, but when i was referring to the diode number low vs high i meant using the same exact chip driven with the same milliamps (?)

As i have stated the nerdie technicalities do not interest me, so i don’t have all the right jargon and terms down very well but i do know the basics of a light fixture

Though i have made some diy lights i’m not into the tech nearly as much as some of you fellas are. I use them to grow weed so i can get high. So i’m into this for the right reason hah hah



How a led diode works or what they create rather , it creates a light column shaped by the reflector lens what ever the angle happens to be usually around 115- 120 degrees. Basic stuff. I know someone like you building lights knows this well. I’m not explaining this to you, Rocket, rather to other people reading all this who may know even less than i do.

So the more wattage is used to drive the chip the longer and more intense that column gets right. But this light column is also a column of heat radiation and it’s a fairly concentrated light column compared to a hid bulb because led chips have built in reflectors (lens viewing angle) which shape and condense the light/heat columns. And i think the condensed columns are creating hot spots on plants leaves buds. These are creating heat stress leading to yellowing, brown spots or leaves curling and drying out



One argument you see people many times making is that the heat under their led lights isn’t nearly as hot as their hid lights. But the problem isn’t how warm the GROWER thinks the heat radiation feels, what matters is how hot it is to the PLANT.

I don’t know the proper technical terms horti-professionals use but cannabis plant’s ‘assimilation processes’ (hope i used the right term) slow down somewhere after 35+ degrees C, so regardless if the GROWER is thinking that the radiant temperature isn’t too bad when it’s like 45 celsius on the back of hir arm on canopy level , a hot spot of that high is already too warm for cannabis plant to operate on a good level

Do you understand what i’m trying to say with this?



So the more diodes is used to drive say 500 watts of power of the socket the smaller or shorter the heat columns also gets and so the hot spots these large and smaller columns (rays) create also get less intense

And this is another way of explaining what i’m trying to say with the low diode number issue and plants yellowing

 

[hillbil]

Grew for years with HPS and had great results but I switched to mostly LEDs 12 years ago.
Now with Quantum Boards, my Weed is too strong and I’m afraid of the hash.

 

[I Care]

love to see other peoples results and what strains and lights they run, smallest and largest grows are all interesting and important. Solid data comes from all of them.

ViparSpectre XS2500Pro from eBay was the best single prefab option for my 20in(50mm) x 36in(90mm) x 62in(150mm) grow space. What I really love about this light is the driver that I can place outside of my tent on the cool floor.


I have grown Old Soul cut which is going around right now, fem GKMxDOC from Rebel and now onto a (rasperry boogie s1x black rainbow) x strawnanna m/f photo labeled as VT StrawBannanaz when the pack was gifted to me.

GKMxDOC and Old Soul had some issues figuring out the light in my trial with these two.

Might get enough indoor pufface to last me through the next run with this one. Your environment is your environment, mine is mine.
VT Strawbanannaz

I want to follow this by addressing that there is a market for prefab lighting and there are people in the world like me that really don’t have the patience to learn everything about LED. Thats kind of where I am, just because theres No benefit to me experimenting with wattage and diodes. I have only 4 sq foot dedicated to my grow space.

Just to follow up with the obvious disagreement I had and why with the all knowing custom light fixture god, I’m sorry man. Cannabis can take more light than any other plant studied by man, telling me that you know more about what’s going on in my grow space than I do is pretty senseless. I was trying to let people know who might be scared by your personal experience with your inappropriately built lighting system that was failing you.

That actually, if your plants look the yellow like mine did… you need to run up the dimmer and get those leaves working or they will fade away and Then they’ll be gone when the plant needs them to provide you with your fruits.

 

[Brother Nature]

 

[Sanjuro]

Your environment is your environment, mine is mine.

i hear ya
Small grow spaces are tricky to dial in. Air movement especially because the walls are so close to each other and even a small circulating fan can move alot of air in there.

circ fans are condensing the air column they create making the air cooler. So if the air in your room is already on the colder side a circ. fan will make it even colder

After getting the rh% and temps on the right levels, air movement is one of the most important things to get right so that plants won't suffer under led lights so much

I had to but some gaffa tape around the circ.fan in my veg cab to restrict how much air blows through it because it just was too much no matter which way you pointed it and plants in most spots had their leaves drying out too much. I also point the fan so that my plants won’t have air directly blown at them. I place the circ fan so that it blows air at the light, driver i got hanging on the wall and all the electrical cords so that the air column gets broken up as much as possible. It’s still on the limit during cold season

 

[Hiddenjems]

I think a good grower can get good results with any variety of lamp.

That's why I think anyone picking a side shouldn't surprised when someone else gets upset.

I prefer the sun so I can act like I can fight, but in reality, the grow light doesn't really change much.

I flowered crazy good chronic under fluorescent T12 shop light fixtures that were two inches away.

The good grower is the important part.

Lots of people have a way they do things figured out, and it works great. That’s not necessarily a good grower. A good grower can read the data and adjust parameters in many different situations to get a large crop of quality product.

Nothing against the former. But it’s similar to someone who can make a few really good dinners at home to a chef that’s making 20 different dishes for thousands of diners. I’d love to eat food from either, but the pro gives me more options.

 

[Crooked8]

The good grower is the important part.

Lots of people have a way they do things figured out, and it works great. That’s not necessarily a good grower. A good grower can read the data and adjust parameters in many different situations to get a large crop of quality product.

Nothing against the former. But it’s similar to someone who can make a few really good dinners at home to a chef that’s making 20 different dishes for thousands of diners. I’d love to eat food from either, but the pro gives me more options.

This is well worded. There are plenty of the growers to this day that have their method that worked well and never stray. “If it aint broke dont fix it”. Guess what, anyone who says that isnt innovating a thing. They will not set the world on fire. They will not break records. They will not achieve the best. Those who are willing to suffer through change and difficulty to find new paths/methods that lead to surprises either good are bad will end up winning if they can persevere. I can personally attest to that. This is precisely what this thread is about. Leds pose a real challenge to those “if it aint broke” folks. Oh… all of a sudden i have to really pay attention to everything? Bahhh way too hard (insert whimpering). The ones who bailed and went back to hid, all good and fine for them. Those who are making it work with the leds with increased light/transpiration/photosynthetic rate etc, are going to keep crushing it and not looking back. Cheers to both parties but im stoked to be in the latter.

 

[greyfader]

This is in line with what i’m trying to say.

Yes the type and size of the chip matter. I probably didn’t articulate well enough, but when i was referring to the diode number low vs high i meant using the same exact chip driven with the same milliamps (?)

As i have stated the nerdie technicalities do not interest me, so i don’t have all the right jargon and terms down very well but i do know the basics of a light fixture

Though i have made some diy lights i’m not into the tech nearly as much as some of you fellas are. I use them to grow weed so i can get high. So i’m into this for the right reason hah hah



How a led diode works or what they create rather , it creates a light column shaped by the reflector lens what ever the angle happens to be usually around 115- 120 degrees. Basic stuff. I know someone like you building lights knows this well. I’m not explaining this to you, Rocket, rather to other people reading all this who may know even less than i do.

So the more wattage is used to drive the chip the longer and more intense that column gets right. But this light column is also a column of heat radiation and it’s a fairly concentrated light column compared to a hid bulb because led chips have built in reflectors (lens viewing angle) which shape and condense the light/heat columns. And i think the condensed columns are creating hot spots on plants leaves buds. These are creating heat stress leading to yellowing, brown spots or leaves curling and drying out



One argument you see people many times making is that the heat under their led lights isn’t nearly as hot as their hid lights. But the problem isn’t how warm the GROWER thinks the heat radiation feels, what matters is how hot it is to the PLANT.

I don’t know the proper technical terms horti-professionals use but cannabis plant’s ‘assimilation processes’ (hope i used the right term) slow down somewhere after 35+ degrees C, so regardless if the GROWER is thinking that the radiant temperature isn’t too bad when it’s like 45 celsius on the back of hir arm on canopy level , a hot spot of that high is already too warm for cannabis plant to operate on a good level

Do you understand what i’m trying to say with this?



So the more diodes is used to drive say 500 watts of power of the socket the smaller or shorter the heat columns also gets and so the hot spots these large and smaller columns (rays) create also get less intense

And this is another way of explaining what i’m trying to say with the low diode number issue and plants yellowing

better watch out, buddy! you are dangerously close to yourself becoming what you disdain. a cannabis nerd.

this is exactly how cannabis nerds get started on the path to nerdism.

we all started knowing nothing and i'm not saying that you know nothing now as you seem to have some experience under your belt. as one progresses there is a tendency to experiment and look for answers.

the charts and graphs and research papers are the language that advanced growers use to communicate. nothing more or less.

they usually are not presented with the idea that they are the total solution to any one problem but rather submitted to the group with the idea that they may be a piece of the puzzle.

this thread has evolved and you have missed most of the evolution.

i can't think of anyone who has participated in this thread that uses real scientific methodology. with controlled experimentation. the reason is that it is too expensive for anyone but funded research institutions to afford.

i have been experimenting, my own way, since the day i started 28 years ago. not peer-reviewed side by sides or any other structured method but what i like to call "one after another". almost every grow has a new element involved. i throw a bunch of shit on the wall and see what sticks. over the years quite a bit has stuck.

if you keep hanging around here you will nerd out too. it's infectious.

your commentary about diodes has some relevance. but, i don't think it's because of the reasons you presented.

the diodes don't form a column, the photons are very widely dispersed. typically 120 degrees as you state. most people hearing that for the first time don't really have grip on what that angle really is.

a hexagon's vertices decribe a 120 degree angle. that's one hell of a wide beam.

so, i think, and this is just theory from my own crude experimenting, that a greater number of diodes spread evenly over a canopy eliminates more shade than a fewer number of diodes.

even if the total power level is the same.

the more point sources the less shading the plant experiences.

so what is happening here? the inverse of shade is lighted surface area which means that more photosynthetic surface area is being driven than with fewer diodes. again, even at the same total power level.

greater rate of photosynthesis equals higher metabolic rate. therefore more demand for nutrients and water.

and the more important it is that all environmental parameters be on point.

science is your friend! we are all at different knowledge points on a line.

 

[greyfader]

here is a nice little write-up on IR that some of you might want to look at.

The Effect of Near-Infrared Radiation on Plants | AgriTechTomorrow

Look at any textbook on botany and you will find this maxim: plants respond to optical radiation in the spectral range of 280 nm to 800 nm.The question is, how was this spectral range (sometimes referred to as Photobiologically Active Radiation, or PBAR) determined?

www.agritechtomorrow.com

 

[mean mr.mustard]

The good grower is the important part.

Lots of people have a way they do things figured out, and it works great. That’s not necessarily a good grower. A good grower can read the data and adjust parameters in many different situations to get a large crop of quality product.

Nothing against the former. But it’s similar to someone who can make a few really good dinners at home to a chef that’s making 20 different dishes for thousands of diners. I’d love to eat food from either, but the pro gives me more options.

I'm glad we can agree on something!

 

[mean mr.mustard]

This is well worded. There are plenty of the growers to this day that have their method that worked well and never stray. “If it aint broke dont fix it”. Guess what, anyone who says that isnt innovating a thing. They will not set the world on fire. They will not break records. They will not achieve the best. Those who are willing to suffer through change and difficulty to find new paths/methods that lead to surprises either good are bad will end up winning if they can persevere. I can personally attest to that. This is precisely what this thread is about. Leds pose a real challenge to those “if it aint broke” folks. Oh… all of a sudden i have to really pay attention to everything? Bahhh way too hard (insert whimpering). The ones who bailed and went back to hid, all good and fine for them. Those who are making it work with the leds with increased light/transpiration/photosynthetic rate etc, are going to keep crushing it and not looking back. Cheers to both parties but im stoked to be in the latter.

I suppose it needs repeated but I can "crush" with an HID or LED.

LED is cheap and cooler.

It's cheap. That's a big pro.

It's cooler. That's a great benefit for most applications.

It's not the only choice that will win cups.

I do plan to implement LED by next summer but will be using HID for the cooler months.

I don't think that HID will be replaced by LED across the board, but see it as preferable for commercial applications.

Cheaper always wins in corporate capitalism.

Looking around doesn't necessarily mean looking back.

 

[Crooked8]

I suppose it needs repeated but I can "crush" with an HID or LED.

LED is cheap and cooler.

It's cheap. That's a big pro.

It's cooler. That's a great benefit for most applications.

It's not the only choice that will win cups.

I do plan to implement LED by next summer but will be using HID for the cooler months.

I don't think that HID will be replaced by LED across the board, but see it as preferable for commercial applications.

Cheaper always wins in corporate capitalism.

Looking around doesn't necessarily mean looking back.

Of course you can, but you cant beat the efficiency or the quality. One can never get the same weight or quality from HID that you can achieve with LED especially for the input cost. But its easier to run HIDs overall, i understand that and many dont feel like tinkering. You get out what you put in. And most often it seems big corporate grows havent rationalized the cost of purchasing all new leds for their humongous facility although the ROI is quick with an experienced grower. Now if someone converts and never ran leds, whew, what a mess that can be.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

Efficiency, no.

Quality, comparable.

If quality is of concern I will be expecting to use sunlight.

That shit is cheaper than either.

 

[Crooked8]

Efficiency, no.

Quality, comparable.

If quality is of concern I will be expecting to use sunlight.

That shit is cheaper than either.

If your location allows for it, thats terrific.

 

[Sanjuro]

this is exactly how cannabis nerds get started on the path to nerdism.

I’m not on the path. You guys maybe are but i’m already back home smoking weed, watching motosports and noodling a guitar hah hah

if you keep hanging around here you will nerd out too. it's infectious.

i won’t be hanging out. this is not infectiously interesting to me more like waste of time reading most of this, not all of it but most of it

the diodes don't form a column,

What would you call those then?

and within these light columns, shaped by the built in reflectors most of the light is moving straight away from the chip, not spreading to the sides. meaning the light column is more intense in the middle of it

You could have shown me a picture of led viewing angles shaped by the built in reflectors in these chips , the thing i wrote about, but instead of doing that you show me a hexagon. ???


And this is a good example what is wrong with these tech threads. Some of you people love to lecture others, go off on your tangent and then the plot gets lost

If you want to illustrate your point about led chips and viewing angles do not show pictures of something else.



I really have hard time even finish reading replies like this one.

If you want to address a point i have presented, quote me on this point and then address that point and that point only. Don’t go off your tangents and giving lectures on everything else assuming the guy at the other end is interested reading it. I’m not interested in your grower life stories or how or well your buddies like your weed compared to the shit they buy at the street corner of at the coffeeshops.

I struggled reading this post before the hexagon picture and then couldn’t continue reading the rest of it after that one. I’m not interested in this at all. This really isn’t infectiously interesting. not even close.



Now i just want to get shit faced because i’m so frustrated having to deal with this nonsense. a mild head ache is creeping in. hah hah

 

[Ca++]

If there was a column of light, it only need expand over a distance greater than the LED spacing, to severely hamper your thoughts.
Lets say your LEDs are an inch apart. Do you think each one, only lights an inch of canopy? It does sound like it. In fact, most are the 120 divergence type. The light unit works as a whole, and it's general size is the factor most likely to effect coverage. In the context of your conversation.

 

[Sanjuro]

If there was a column of light, it only need expand over a distance greater than the LED spacing, to severely hamper your thoughts.
Lets say your LEDs are an inch apart. Do you think each one, only lights an inch of canopy? It does sound like it. In fact, most are the 120 divergence type. The light unit works as a whole, and it's general size is the factor most likely to effect coverage.

This has nothing to do with what i have written in my posts.

I just wrote about you people going off with your tangents and here we go again. didn't take too long.

It's amazing what you guys seem to pick out "reading between the lines". Most of it has got nothing to do with what i have said