LED and BUD QUALITY

[Crooked8]

Agreed, C++ more than earned it. As far as I know, he's been offered but is too humble to accept or doesn't want it.

He minimum deserves a Mentor badge, hes done a lot of it.

 

[I Care]

I was thinking that, even worthy of coming up with a new badge for being a well rounded gent. an emancipator for taking me from bottle suggestions to 5in1 meter. TDS Jesus, Ca++ Saves, WWCD

 

[Ca++]

Oh that's great guys. Thank you.

I have indeed been offered both a mentor badge, and vip access. The forum gods do recognise the inputs of the individual. I have declined, but if I can nick his badge, that would be just too funny to deny lol

 

[Sanjuro]

yup never positing weed pics or taking abiut smoke quality etc just yields , lot of math, ppd, more math, more electrical engineering, more plumbing and HVAC, and zero talk about weed.

100%

Cannabis plants barely even get a mention!!

It’s a bud quality thread where none of these people actually talk about anything else than technical stuff. And it’s the same thing going on in a circle for how long now in these threads?

Do you people ever even think about how your light fixtures work and how your plants handle and behave under different numbers of diodes?

Apparently not.

All about ppfd, spectrums,Ir, UV A and B, EC levels that are bordering toxic and what ever else many of us do not even bother to follow, but a part from maybe one of two members, no of these people ever thought about diode number count of their led lights!



It’s a very very different thing if you push certain amount of watts, let’s say 500 watts, out of 500 diodes versus 1000 diodes versus 2000 diodes

The higher diode count your led light has, the smaller is the radiant stress the plants have to suffer because with higher numbers of led diodes the radiant light isn’t as intense and you can hold your leds closer to your plants.

The higher diode count the higher price tag the light fixture also has of course, which is probably why people don’t even consider this factor. Most people don’t want to invest a huge amount of money on their leds me included



I’d say the biggest factor why people have yellowing issues with their plants is because they push relatively large amount of watts out of light fixtures that have relatively small diode count, which then makes the radiant quality of the light more intense and which then leads to radiant heat stress issues. Dehydration, yellowing leaves and tops that is.

This suggestion is probably too simple for you engineers and technical experts to even consider and so likely won’t get a conversation going hah hah

Carry on. ..keep on doing the never ending led circle talk

 

[I Care]

I actually think it’s the opposite and yellowing is from under powering with too many diodes and not enough wattage.

this is too little radiance

this is too much

 

[Sanjuro]

I actually think it’s the opposite and yellowing is from under powering with too many diodes and
not enough wattage.

this is too little radiance
View attachment 19060367


this is too much
View attachment 19060368

No. both plants show problems with too much
The first is suffering more than the lower one, hence the yellowing
It's also related to RH% temps and air movement in the grow space (related to dehydration problems ) but i'd say the biggest factor is intense light out of relatively small led diode number

 

[I Care]

no they’re the same plant and the first pic is before it git enough light

 

[Sanjuro]

no they’re the same plant and the first pic is before it git enough light

Plants don’t yellow because the light is too weak,at least that amount isn’t low enough, they stretch when the light is too weak or too far away from them

I’d say the plant was in a wrong spot in your grow space. Too much air movement perhaps and too cold temps on that spot and then the light radiance got to it

I have personally tried using the same watts from the wall and pushed it out of different led count so i have personal experience with this thing

 

[I Care]

Id say that I put the plant beneath underpowered diodes a height to great and when receiving light that wasn’t actually enough to encourage photosynthesis there was a reduction in the clorophyl

 

[Sanjuro]

Id say that I put the plant beneath underpowered diodes a height to great and when receiving light that wasn’t actually enough to encourage photosynthesis there was a reduction in the clorophyl

I edited my last post probably after you read it
I added:

I have personally tried using the same watts from the wall and pushed it out of different led count so i have personal experience with this thing

 

[mm4n]

You couldn't pay me to smoke Boron deficient subregs.

Now I am curious to know what Boron tastes like...

 

[Rocket Soul]

TRIGGERED!!!

Sigh.... You actually call that an argument? The only thing i react to is how stupid it is to have this discussion in 2024. Its already over long time ago, people lost years to this, arguing it back and forth online. I dont take any offense to people using whatever light they use, only to people making bad faith online. Carry on, go and grow with all you hids. If you dont contribute to the thread you can... Have a coke and a smile, godblessya

If youre not able to get good quality with leds it means youre not able to grow with any light you encounter : poor grower or lazy grower, you choose. Sigh...

Dont come here and try to wrap us up in your 2017 arguments, were passed that.

 

[Crooked8]

I agree folks could post more of their grows here. Graphs do get old. After all it is the Led and quality thread. Quality being our number one goal right? Its certainly what Im after. Ive been seeking the dankest ogs for most of my life. Glad to say i have a few and they respond really well to Leds despite their classic finicky nature and lankiness. I think my space is probably the most stacked its been.

The Triangle is the most bitchy for sure and ill likely toss her anyway. The others are outstanding this run, skunky pine and flowers. Id love to see other peoples results and what strains and lights they run, smallest and largest grows are all interesting and important. Solid data comes from all of them.

 

[Ca++]

Do you people ever even think about how your light fixtures work and how your plants handle and behave under different numbers of diodes?

Apparently not.

Number? Yes light dilution undoes such ideas. The intensity of individual diodes, isn't the plants concern. The plant just knows what hits it. Which isn't little spots, who's number reflect the number of LED's used. They are not laser beams. Though I may come back to this.

You are talking about watts, and rejecting experiments with colour. Everyone should know that colour changes a plants expression, and light isn't measured in watts. If you want to reject this, it's your call. It's not how to grow the best plants though. The best plants come from the best conditions. Hence so many talks about conditions. Rejecting them isn't useful.

Circling back to LED count, I was thinking about how different light grows different leaves. I got to thinking about how the shuttering effect puts red dots on peoples floors. And how leaves move about in the breeze. One leaf could be back n forth between spectrums all the time, when using LED groups of different colours. This leads to the idea of just using matching doides, having merit. Like a full board of 3000K for flower. However, the lab reports we read, also use an array of mixed colours. Sometimes the common path, is just worth following.

 

[Rocket Soul]

I agree folks could post more of their grows here. Graphs do get old. After all it is the Led and quality thread. Quality being our number one goal right? Its certainly what Im after. Ive been seeking the dankest ogs for most of my life. Glad to say i have a few and they respond really well to Leds despite their classic finicky nature and lankiness. I think my space is probably the most stacked its been.
View attachment 19060384 View attachment 19060386 View attachment 19060387 View attachment 19060388 View attachment 19060385
The Triangle is the most bitchy for sure and ill likely toss her anyway. The others are outstanding this run, skunky pine and flowers. Id love to see other peoples results and what strains and lights they run, smallest and largest grows are all interesting and important. Solid data comes from all of them.

Outstanding pics as usual. And i admit to be one who doesnt really show pics - it's down my grow partner and his needs for privacy. A few of you may have seen some of the private vids i do for our harvest updates but i cannot post it publicly.

I also happily admitt how nice it is to see pics of a great grow but in the end its just really some pics : its really hard to say quality other than "does it have decent trichome coverage" from pics. I got weed with and without uv looking pretty much the same but smells and taste is very different. And how do you even measure quality? This issue will always tend to get sciency with studies on terps and thc if you really try to bone it out.

What about budsize then, isnt that quality? Yes, to a certain extent, but some of our biggest buds are on our pure white, 3000k, control tray: the one we use for seeing how different our best results are to just average. That tray always looks great, yields very well as well, but smells are not what they could and should be: this tray always gets picked as lowest quality in blind tests. Not a sinlge person ive tried has rated it higher than our UV/red supplemented trays.

So while i love all the photos its still somewhat lacking as proof of quality. But i love to see them

Edit: re read this and it almost comes off like im dingying your pics; not at all, top led grow on icmag. Just trying to tie into why this thread tends to get data heavy: weed quality is hard to convey in pics since its about smells and highs so people tend to get going with papers of thc and terps. Which again can be deceiving since high thcs or terps can still be found in a lacking plant.

 

[Sanjuro]

Number? Yes light dilution undoes such ideas. The intensity of individual diodes, isn't the plants concern. The plant just knows what hits it. Which isn't little spots, who's number reflect the number of LED's used. They are not laser beams. Though I may come back to this.

Have you actually tried using the same amount of watts, using the same hanging height in the same grow conditions but having 4x amount of diodes on one light fixture compared to the other?

Or is your argument based on some study paper again? you seem to be a data and study paper person rather than speaking based on real experiments you have personally done. i have went trough some of these threads so i know what the data-study paper people like you are talking about page after page.

Don’t take this the wrong way i’m not taking the piss. just saying

But if you don’t have personal experimentation with diode numbers then our conversation will not go any further. all the spectrum and ir uv talk, ppfd and your light meter comparisons do not interet me as i implied in my original post

I use samsung, cree and some cheaper chinese kind viparspectra uses in ther lights in the 3000-5000k range, and the way i see it these spectrums and diodes aren’t creating majority of the problem.

The problems come from RH% that is too low, temps taht are too low, air movement that is too high and plants being pushed with large amount of watts out of too few diodes. As i explained in my original post. But the data-tech talk you people like to go on in circles for years do not interest me and there’s nothing you will say that would change that.I have done my reading on the forums about led lights plant food + leds and all this shit already. You guys aren’t bringing anything new to the table

Circling back to LED count, I was thinking about how different light grows different leaves. I got to thinking about how the shuttering effect puts red dots on peoples floors. And how leaves move about in the breeze. One leaf could be back n forth between spectrums all the time, when using LED groups of different colours. This leads to the idea of just using matching doides, having merit. Like a full board of 3000K for flower. However, the lab reports we read, also use an array of mixed colours. Sometimes the common path, is just worth following.

You say back to the led count but then you start talking about color of the light or what ever.

????!!!
Your thoughts seem to be all over the place. a bit scattered if you will

If you want to talk about diode counts with me don’t start talking about spectrums and leaves flapping about. This is exactly why you people go on in circles for years arriving to nowhere.

I’m not even going to reply to anything else than diode numbers, the topic of my original post.And even on that topic i pretty much stated all there is to say. Either you experiment with this suggestion i posted or you don’t

 

[Rocket Soul]

Have you actually tried using the same amount of watts, using the same hanging height in the same grow conditions but having 4x amount of diodes on one light fixture compared to the other?

The validity of this experiement of yours depends on more factors than that, it depends on the actual measurements of your light; how many watts are coming out of what dimensions. If they have different form factor then all bets are off as spread will be different.
What was the two lights you put up against eachother? And what did they measure, how big were they?

Or is your argument based on some study paper again? you seem to be a data and study paper person rather than speaking based on real experiments you have personally done. i have went trough some of these threads so i know what the data-study paper people like you are talking about page after page.

Don’t take this the wrong way i’m not taking the piss. just saying

But if you don’t have personal experimentation with diode numbers then our conversation will not go any further. all the spectrum and ir uv talk, ppfd and your light meter comparisons do not interet me as i implied in my original post

I use samsung, cree and some cheaper chinese kind viparspectra uses in ther lights in the 3000-5000k range, and the way i see it these spectrums and diodes aren’t creating majority of the problem.

The problems come from RH% that is too low, temps taht are too low, air movement that is too high and plants being pushed with large amount of watts out of too few diodes. As i explained in my original post. But the data-tech talk you people like to go on in circles for years do not interest me and there’s nothing you will say that would change that.I have done my reading on the forums about led lights plant food + leds and all this shit already. You guys aren’t bringing anything new to the table


You say back to the led count but then you start talking about color of the light or what ever.

????!!!
Your thoughts seem to be all over the place. a bit scattered if you will

If you want to talk about diode counts with me don’t start talking about spectrums and leaves flapping about. This is exactly why you people go on in circles for years arriving to nowhere.

I’m not even going to reply to anything else than diode numbers, the topic of my original post.And even on that topic i pretty much stated all there is to say. Either you experiment with this suggestion i posted or you don’t

 

[I Care]

Now I am curious to know what Boron tastes like...

“ Boron plays a key role in a diverse range of plant functions including cell wall formation and stability, maintenance of structural and functional integrity of biological membranes, movement of sugar or energy into growing parts of plants, and pollination and seed set.” - Mosaic. First google result when searched form US.

L edited my last post probably after you read it
I added:

I have personally tried using the same watts from the wall and pushed it out of different led count so i have personal experience with this thing

same thing.. personal experience but different observations. driving the same diodes/boards at lower power caused loss of chlorophyll in my documented case. no canoeing or reaching just yellow. the light I use is .277W per diode when driven at 100%. could explain the opposite observations

 

[Sanjuro]

Hi there

I’m not directing this reply to you specifically. i’m writing to anyone reading my posts on this topic. So my intention isn’t to imply you’re a certain kind of person or grower interested in this topic



I don’t measure anything when it comes to grow lights other than how much power the lights are taking from the wall socket. i look at the plants and work my way around the issues i’m having.

I think that is many times the problem with people when they try to fix things based on some numbers they read about online, regarding lighting i mean, rather than experimenting and figuring things out by themselves. Don’t get me wrong, at the beginning i had to read and learn from others as well, and i learned a lot, but i have more or less figured it out now

This doesn’t mean my grow space is dialed in. I lack space for that to do it properly, and my grows are still a struggle but at least i know what causes these issues.



Teh way i see it is, when you guys are taking it to the level of light angles and spread i think you guys are over thinking it and are moving away from solving the problems we are seeing and having.

To me light spread means how much good light coverage there’s on the canopy. When it’s taken to level of light stress from certain light angles then to me that’s over thinking it. That’ just me but i’m a lazy grower who’s just trying to work around issues i’m having. I use as much light as i possibly can and i want it as even on the canopy as i possibly can do with the gear i’m working with

I think it’s more simpler than that all the data ocd nerd shit

It’s about the much tooted getting the envirnmental factors dialed in. High enough temps and rh%, not having too much air movement around the plants and giving them little bit of calmag compared to the hid days

The only thing i have to add to this is what i say in my posts.

I see that the huge part of the problem comes from large amount of watts powering too small diode number

It’s not i have to write a book about this, guys. hah hah



I didn’t build lights to specifically test side by side but i figured this out using different kinds of light fixtures diy and plug n play kind

I built led lights with what i see now as seriously lacking diode count and those burn plants even with very low wattage –samsung diodes – then seeing the problem disappear and being able to use more wattage when the diode count was way more than the 4x i mentioned in my posts

I have used light fixtures of about the same dimensions say 35cm x 30cm in the same small tent. The other light had serious lack of diodes while the other one was a proper one with many, many more diodes using the same wattage out of the wall

The difference was so dramatic that you just did not need a measuring device.



I can see that data-tech people will take issues with what i’m talking about because this wasn’t based on side by side experiments. But believe me when i tell you guys the difference was and is so dramatic there is no question what causes it , after the other factors are dialed in, that none of you wouldn’t have needed to put a measuring instrument under the lights.

To the naysayers who have problem with what i just wrote and how i figured this out, all i’m going to say that you have to test this out yourselves

I’m not going to present data or numbers for you because you guys should do your own tests and then you will see that a low diode count is a major factor

A cheap method of doing a test is to build a strip light that has seriously low diode count and run it on 100% and see how your plants will suffer under it even with fairly low wattage. I suggest you test this by building a small veg light so you don’t have to spend a lot of money



One way around this problem is to buy over kill-level grow light for blooming that you then dial back in which case the diodes aren’t being driven so hard

Meaning, if you want to use a 500w off the wall socket led light ,let’s say Mars Hydro, don’t buy a 500w light that you will use with 100% power, buy a 800-1000w fixture that you will then run at 500W off the wall socket.I used Mars Hydro as an example i have never used their lights and i don’t how many diodes their lights come with. i just used it as an example to illustrate my point

Of course the over kill-way costs more money but it is waht it is.



It’s fine if you people want to debate me if you have run tests on this or have personal experiences but i’m not going to debate data nerds who just want to argue my case without bothering to try it out for themselves

I hope you guys understand where i’m coming from with this

I’m almost 50 yo and i don’t have any interest in childish bullshit circle jerking. I’m not here to brag about shit, i’m not seeking attention or to create some online guru status and i don’t make shit up – if i say something happened in a certain way then that’s what happened.

All i’m interested in is giving some tips to people having the same issues i was having. Talking online won’t solve anything. eventually you have to make changes in your grow room if you’re having issues. So either you guys try out what i have been talking about or you don’t. it’s your call what you want to do



If you guys don’t see ANY difference using a low diode count light vs a light that has high number of dioedes then you can tell me i’m being wrong.it’s perfectly fine. But don’t do it before you have tried it out yourselves when all you have is speculations. Let’s behave like adults and not waste each other’s time and nerves

I hope this reply i satisfying. This is more or less all i have and can think of telling you about it

Peace guys

The validity of this experiement of yours depends on more factors than that, it depends on the actual measurements of your light; how many watts are coming out of what dimensions. If they have different form factor then all bets are off as spread will be different.
What was the two lights you put up against eachother? And what did they measure, how big were they?

 

[Sanjuro]

same thing.. personal experience but different observations. driving the same diodes/boards at lower power caused loss of chlorophyll in my documented case. no canoeing or reaching just yellow. the light I use is .277W per diode when driven at 100%. could explain the opposite observations

Because i don’t know or didn’t see where exactly you kept that plant when it went yellow i can’t say much about it

but If that’s the spot were the plant yellowed out where the photo was taken i can see a circulating fan and the tent’s intake in the back ground, which makes me suspect colder cooler air around that spot

All i can add is that in my grows if the plants are too far away from the light they won’t change color they start stretching like just under hid and fluoros

When plants are far away from the light source naturally they also get less heat radiation, less warmth

When my plants have look more or less the same as the yellowing one on your photo they have been in a too cold spot and had too much air movement around them

This is all i can say about it

Peace