I feel such a failure

[f-e]

This is promising. Side by side, the advance has slowed.

70Klux. I have completed crops at this sort of level. Others around look about as big at 50Klux. They do take some feeding though. It's what I have been messing around at.

Album shot

The bad leaf in the kush. In the last 24 hours some really low leaves turned a shade of green half of what they were, evenly over the leaf, and the leafs pull away quite easily. I thought mag and this one in the shot I see shows stripes and a tip so likely is. High lux on the top I suspect but I'm happy to see a few bottom leaves give up their reserves. It's their job isn't it.

It doesn't look like Mg or Calcium can come down. The camera flash catches things I don't see.

Any more.. are yes, the colour. I swear the look greener, but I dunno now

Yeah, greener now I get them together. Quite a bit. I thought the mag would do this. It's not a catalogued effect but I have mag placed in my mind somewhat differently to the books.

I can see problems looming. I think flushing is the answer again. I'm not going to change the tank as I would like to see the ec rise or fall tomorrow for my logs. Though N should be reduced and P could be.

 

[TdotGonG]

I started having those issue's you are having when I started to over feed P-Sil. Maybe flush you're medium or change you're rez. and drop the P 25% to see how the plants respond within a week. not trying to be a dick but why are you trying so hard to get such a specific nutrient regime and profile when you aren't paying for tissue analysis over the cycle to make sure the effort put in is worth the labour? I was doing what you were doing and said fuck this, started just mixing simply. Make separate diluted solutions at X-ml or X-Gram per GL, and mix them into the rez, make sure to mix the minerals ect ect with the most unstable valence first in-case of precipitate. then mix in the rest slowly. I can feel you're worry threw the computer screen, just enjoy the process bro! Also have you tried to add any glucose/fructose/sucralose for microbe feed, It might help boost the plants energy expenditure and push the plant grow faster hence negating the effects of over feeding. If under fed, the growth issues that are already they're will show faster, then you will know to increase feed.

 

[f-e]

Unfortunately I live on an island where tissue sampling isn't possible. What labs I could get involved need every leaf I have got, they can't work with under 200g. I had a thread up last year thinking about water sampling the in&out to see what was vanishing. G.O Joe suggested ashing. A method of dissolving the tissue with Nitric and then removing the nitric with distilled water and boiling iirc. Though illegal I do have some good Nitric so the option is there but boiling it off in the communal gardens isn't an option.

I need targets. Just good weed is easy. I want to maximise my space to extremes. Meaning light that causes issues, to fix the issues, without co2 though as we have enough of that. Do you realise this grow is under the bed? It's all about best use of space.
I have gone astray and messed up, salting my coco beyond help. I need a camping washing machine to recover it. It's a salt magnet. Most of my efforts of the last 7 or 8 cycles have been trying to fix this environment issue or perhaps feed issue that's been poor flushing all along. The real pisser for me is how when I get calls about problems, the first thing I say is flush it. It's school boy error. Embarrassing really. But the good fight has driven me to learn things I didn't know before. Like what feeds they really like, and those available commercially that are very close. My base feed works. They all do. I can't buy them all though it's a dull and slow way to find my favourite.

I don't have a goal as such, but lets say 5kg per meter per year will be a nice start.

Sugars... I have never had any luck. I might search for a thread. I have looked at products available and they have all been cheap cattle block. I used carboload years back which was probably the same. I do believe sugar can get through the roots, which is good as I don't really have a microherd in coco. Not one I tend to. It's on my list to clean it up.

This thread has about run it's course now. My problem was flushing. I'm just watching now to see it's relationship with my plants from all angles. Learning the signs. Pinched tops. Stripes from Mg issues. Loosing colour. Then if left the damage signs. Causes like the reduced waterflow of stem wounds. It all has to fit in my memory map.

I'm now interested in synergy between nutrients. Something I never looked at before. I tend to sit back and just watch the flowers grow as a few have suggest. However I like a good problem to, and not being able to solve this one might haunt me, but good will come out of it. It already has

I will keep monitoring. Today's slow down of the advancement is a key turning point. Another week and this topic will be closed. Until then I'm happy to share what I'm doing in any area of the grow. Though it's not likely a path anybody should follow me down, my findings on the limit might aid some. As they have me.

 

[f-e]

Sugar and ec, that ties in with another thing I learnt today.

Have you seen leaves close around the growing point under high light. Like a flower that doesn't want to spread it's petals. Often towards the end of the day, like it's DLI linked. Leaves pointing upwards, often with an arched back.
I have used co2 levels to open them up, then let them close again. Like an energy boost, like sugars.

A week back I couldn't get past 40,000 lux without them hiding. Now I see no limit. They really didn't want to eat it. ( going past 40,000 was them reaching the lights. I didn't intend it, I just watched)


I just got an unusual result. I was taking ec readings as I made up the tank. The Calmag, with 32ppm of Ca gave me 0.3ec. The food with 64ppm gave me 0.6ec. Nothing else touched the ec. (total of 15 is 7 in the water as I top up yesterdays tank). I know other things register. Just not today. That aint right.

 

[GoatCheese]

This is promising. Side by side, the advance has slowed.

I can see problems looming. I think flushing is the answer again. I'm not going to change the tank as I would like to see the ec rise or fall tomorrow for my logs. Though N should be reduced and P could be.

Good if you see some improvement.
Color shades look abit different to human eye compared to photos, so try to get by what your eyes see, so that you won’t confuse yourself with the slight color/shade differences when you’re in the middle of fixing issues.


Yea, i’d do few more large flushes in the coming days to really get those salts rinsed out . Large volumes going thru the coco ..then maybe after 2-3 proper flushes more you can go to normal growing rhythm again.

:::

From the photos, i’d say the tallest tops are getting abit too much from the Leds. I’d dim the leds down 10% but it’s up to you.
Imo, it’s better to turn the leds down abit than trying to fix the led radiation damage with higher EC, cause this way you’re not really fixing the original issue (too much led output) and will end up over feeding your plants.

Like i have said, the only thing i have added to my feeding solution since changing my HPS/CFL lights to cobs/leds is CalMag, no extra BioBizz nutes at all. So instead of changing the NPK feeding of my plants, i learned how to use my leds/cobs the right way ...and i’m still learning to use them, esp. the new Samsung LM301H veg lights i’m putting together atm.


Yea, it gets to your head when the modern Led lights are so powerful. My flowering COBs max at 225 watts and i can only use 90 watts in my 160cm tall tent. You’re thinking; surely i can use more watts than under 50% what my cobs are capable of, but if you can’t raise the lights any higher then you just have to find the limit levels with the dimmer.

 

[f-e]

Having my lights at 8" and the plants growing an inch a day means in a couple of days the light intensity climbs quite a bit. Okay.. not 8" but it's easy maths.
Ionic coco bloom is 100-40-180-50-? so it's much like 100-100-200 but low on P. Beside your ratio, you can see why I have to put in more P. Their soil feed is 1:1:2 though. So I will likely be using that soon. I presume P collects a lot in coco and it's balanced for people that have little runoff. I may get back there myself one day, but while things have been bad I have used runoff like a little bit of flushing each feed.

I hope my new light meter comes soon, as mine isn't proved at all.

I found my P additive is Phosphoric acid, with Potassium hydroxide. That must be unavailable and there to balance the pH. I have in answer, dropped the npk 10% then put the K back with PK which coves some of my P also. I imagine my K bottle also contains P in an unavailable form. So using P & K separately adds a lots of stuff that PK together won't. I'm down to almost meaningless corrections now and able to see commercial mixes targeting my numbers, surely better blended than me using the mono range. As this PK example shows.

First of the two daily runoffs is the same as yesterday. It's not going up, but there is a strong likelihood that some exchange is going on. With some feed part of the cec.

128-107-215-150-80 for tomorrow. That's lower N as I must. Helping the K, as will the Ca reduction. Which also helps Mg availability. The P is down as it was basically high and has a lot of junk in the bottle. Plus lower P means my runoff may be a little higher pH, with a net effect I can use more P-acid. I will see how that pans out.

That last sentence is stuff I just didn't know until IC helped me. It's satisfying.

 

[f-e]

No EC gain. Finished the day with runoff 0.3 higher than what was fed.
Made the tank up as I expected to, and it's ec1.4 which is what I veg at so I won't go lower. I actually had a number of the very bottom oldest little leaves shrivel up brown. Which 3 weeks in, seems reasonable. It's been said Ionic is a bit salty in the past, but it's perhaps only now becoming relevant. I have used other feeds that wanted to be lower. GoatCheese the biobizz site is still down. I would like to look up your feed properly and see what ppm is actually being targeted. It's quite possible your 12 is my 15 if I carry lots of useless salts. 16 generally looks good about now and this 15 is sacrificing leaves.

I will pop up some pics, but more and more I can see this is history

This is the first plant we looked at. It's still spreading but only to the same select branches

This is the Kush that followed. Just the one leaf still and much slower advancement.

This leave's me satisfied that damage earlier on is to blame. I'm glad I was quick to share this when it looked like nothing had happened yet.

Group shot, because it's almost a diary now

At this point my buds are much smaller and harder on bad runs. Likely the same weight, but brick weed. I would see a red tinged hair in about 4 days, and a week later they could be 30% browned off. It's just not going that way. I would normally increase the light about now to, but will resist. 400w over them and equivalent to 100w more underneath. Though the lux meter isn't impressed with them underneath. You can see it isn't great for ~ 130w

 

[GoatCheese]

How are you doing the flushing?
Do you run the mild flushing solution thru the drippers?
Or do you pour it by hand?

If i had to flush my coco, i would pour large amounts of pH adjusted water thru the coco by hand. 2-3 times the volume of the coco. I’d pour few litres at first per pot, then i’d wait 10 minutes so that the coco has enough time to really get wet and start leaching out what ever it’s holding, then i’d pour few litres more of pH adjusted water thru it, wait another while and then flush the coco some more...
Then i’d allow the plants to get normal nutrient solution till next day when i’d repeat the flushing. And you might have to repeat this cycle for quite a few days, till you get that run off EC level to come down.

-
-

About the lower EC..
When Mandala Seeds recommend EC of 1.0-1.2 for their genetics, they are talking about hydro growing, meaning they are talking about hydronutrients (mineral based) like you are using. So if you’d be growing their strains you should feed them EC 1.0-1.2 with the nutrient brand you’re growing with, never mind BioBizz ppm.



Bro.. Imho, you’re clearly too focused of thinking about “cations” and “parts per millions” and what ever. Like few people have already suggested in this thread, you should maybe get back to the basics; Maybe you should go back to the nute mixture the nute brand suggests, find the right EC level to suit your plants and then when you got the handle on that, then start tinkering and finding the optimal nutrient mixture.
When you got salt build up, the light running abit hot and on top of that you’re changing the nutrient feed constantly it’s easy to get abit lost and confused with the symptoms on your plants cause you’re not really sure what’s causing what.


But..
Your main problem, imo, is the salt build up issue and if you’re just running mild nute solution thru the drippers for awhile then i think that’s too little, and you should start pouring large volumes of liquid by hand thru the coco. And personally, i’d use pH adjusted water so that you can be sure it’s not adding more salts in while rinsing some out.

 

[Chevy cHaze]

Hey f-e,
Hope all's good on your side.
Since more poeple are using new powerful LEDs I'm seeing these symptoms everywhere.
I've had Ca and Mg deficiencies in the focus but could not believe it any more after having added a whole lot of CalMag and was looking for other reasons.
Checked PH of water and nutes that go in (ph6.5) and run off water that comes out (ph 6.2), so both within good parameters...
In the end more CalMag sorted it, but the amounts are unreal!!!
I find mixing my own soilless mix with plenty of dolomite lime added does it for the whole grow, but when adding CalMag to regular bought soil you need so much it's unreal.
Best of luck!
CC

 

[Chevy cHaze]

If you let it go on, you'll be looking at this, zoom in to see.
I caught it too late when it was already quite advanced on this plant

 

[therevverend]

The pattern of decay looks fungal to me. I'm an outdoor grower in a wet region so I've seen a lot of fusarium, boytritis, stem rot, root rot, dampening off type stuff. A lot of times when I have a mystery illness I can't solve it's fungal and goes away when the weather changes or I fix my medium. If you've been using the same medium for a while it could be a problem or it could be in your watering system. Might be a good idea to change it next run. Or at least give it a good peroxide or bleach cleaning. Smelling and examining the roots for damage gives it away sometimes but not always.

 

[buzzmobile]

Is it tap water? If so there may be a problem at the source.

 

[f-e]

Runoff came up a point tonight so they got a bit of a flush. Just a pots worth of water poured in quickly. Then a bit later 25% of a pots worth. My tap (which has changed source during my 'crisis' ) is about 0.3/0.4 and I took it to about 0.6 with calmag then to 0.9 with a touch of feed and pH correction. What came out didn't get below 1.5 but it was a quick fix until Thursday when I can make some noise. I generally use the drippers due to compaction concerns, but will jug it in when I feel I must.
I can't run 1.0 as I root cuttings at 0.8 with great results. My feed says target 1.5 but I have to go lower in order to add the extras (calmag etc) that they need. My attempts to lower ec have led to leaves falling off in the last couple of days. N then P it seems. Tomorrows tank is low though. One thing I have not seen is over feed except one showing a little N tox with 145ppm at ~ 18 days. As my schedule said I might. So I know to bring that down to 130 sooner. It's a fine line though.
O looked up biobizz elsewhere. A ml of the Grow at 4-3-6 and 3ml of the bloom at 2-7-4 is 100-210-180 while my base is 100-40-180 by the bottle. I'm bumping up the P just past 100, with the calmag giving 30% more N. They want that N but N interferes with K which is already competing with the cal+mag requirements, so It's just being pushed up 15%. It's not unreasonable. Cannabuss Times say to drop N to 125 in week 5 having been at 200 which is the highest I have seen. 150 isn't uncommon though. There is some method, though the jurys out on madness.

Flushing is the key to the issue I posted about. I feel sure of it. As I let it creep up the last 48 hours saying I was just watching, I did indeed see a progression of them signs again. It was my confirmation, earned through sacrifice. That's why today I'm flushing. I think long term I need a program where I feed at 1.6 and work out the flushing requirement for that. So I have to get new coco and start on that next run.

Great bud development going on. Not steaming ahead, but nice. I'm happy enough that I didn't go so crazy with the pics today.

therevverend the flushing works and lowers the ec, but I can't dismiss the possibility I'm leaching out other stuff. I want something I can treat them with but we are still on lockdown. I can't lift the pots to check the roots as I would like, but need to look at bleach in the tank. I know people do, but I think I have the wrong idea.

Chevy cHaze I think you were in the LED demands thread saying about lots of calmag. I was going to chase you up about it to get some figures. My calmag is 2.6%N 3.2%Ca 1.2%mg as elemental values. I put in 1.2ml per L the last few days. I then have a 1.5% Mg solution I put 2.2ml of in. That's 3.4ml of Mg per L based on typical calmag bottles. What are you dosing like?

 

[f-e]

They are coming along. 21 sleeps so far. I left the wago in shot for colour balance. Leaf at the front gets squashed by the curtain, but it's the bud where N tox was seen.

My only concern today is dropping a few leaves at the very bottom. Relocation signs that won't effect anything, but point towards possible feed schedule changes next run.

Day 23 tomorrow, when I could see brown hairs if this is still going to go wrong. I have an anxious week ahead. I'm not bumping the K or the light, I'm just watching I hope.

Edit: a big difference is the angle of the leaves. They are not pointing upwards at the same light level as they pointed up before.

This is the last run on it's last day. You can see from nearest bud how they just never linked up. They ground to a halt about now, and it took till week 5 to coax them to grow by raising the P from that bottle 40 to 100ppm. So I missed the bulk up after stacking.

That's one red stem

 

[GoatCheese]

Nice that there is some improvement.

My attempts to lower ec have led to leaves falling off in the last couple of days.

I doubt it’s lower EC that is causing this, the plant should start going lighter green first and the bottom leaves should go proper yellow before they start falling off.
I have given my Auto in coco just pH adjusted water with BioBizz TopMax a week now and it hasn’t changed color even one bit. Not a single leaf has dropped or gone even mildly yellow yet. And i even started feeding it milder feed solution 50-25% for 5-6 days before i dropped NPK nutes out completely and my plant looks just the same color as it did when i was still giving it BioBizz Grow and Bloom.

So if you have few leaves falling of, i’d say it’s related to your salt lock out issue rather than lower EC feed.

-
-

About flushing..
When you go back to normal flushing rhythm during this grow and then the next grows, once in 7-10 days should be enough. Nice large flush once in 10 days. Remember lower EC from the start will help with the salt build up issue.

 

[f-e]

Yeah I'm hoping weekly. Looking at my logs I have been drying old root-balls, then riddling out the roots and just using it after some wetting agent is needed to get it going again. I have not done a serious flush at all, it's just more run-off sometimes. It looks like early bloom is my slackest effort, where I must admit I have seen the salt damage and fought back with lower EC when the answer was a good flush and keep the EC where they like it. So I just throttled back on food, while they got a worse and worse ratio of unwanted salt at the root.

This has been humbling. It's the first time getting real help, and to get the answer I start with when looking at other grows is just... well there are no words.

I disturbed some pistils deleafing that browned off overnight. My brain shifted into neutral when I stopped them. I was all over it for reason, before I realised what had happened.

No pics worth showing now. I'm still not passed it and even had a couple more pop up, but it's slowed I'm sure. It's gone through like a wave of locust sometimes, so I could turn a corner... but fingers crossed it's all good now.

I have some old substrate in a bucket of water today. I'm seeing what comes out, but also trying to figure a better processing method. Root balls in bubble bags in the washing machine has come to mind. I have some in a tall jar looking at separation. Maybe I just need lots of water to make a slush, and some zym. Though I have had problems starting again with zym treated substrate.

I guess I need to watch the TV programs on the coco lakes. My grape treading and riddling isn't good.

 

[f-e]

Oh.. the leaf drop. Some did the N thing, where they went yellow then shriveled up to brown. Others have been more mottled, lost half their colour then pulled off very easy. Non actually fell, but it's that kinda thing. Which can be a few things. It's a very rare thing to keep bottom leaves looking great into week 5 though. Almost like it's a problem

 

[Chevy cHaze]

Oh.. the leaf drop. Some did the N thing, where they went yellow then shriveled up to brown. Others have been more mottled, lost half their colour then pulled off very easy. Non actually fell, but it's that kinda thing. Which can be a few things. It's a very rare thing to keep bottom leaves looking great into week 5 though. Almost like it's a problem

I'm seeing the same exact thing with my plants rn.
But I might have to add that mine were extremely deficient of Ca in their youth and when I added CalMag the only slightly affected lower ones recovered along with the new growth but the ones that were mottled continued to go downhill. Seems like there is a point of no return with this...
Anyways, you asked earlier how much Ca and Mg I was feeding:
I' was on biobizz CalMag full dose (that's 1ml/l of water) with every watering. Not sure if it's not that efficient or if the requirements were really that high.
Normally I mix powdered dolomite lime into my soilless mix (Lavender Cowboys soilless mix from the organic soil forum) and that's 2 tablespoons per gallon of soil. That normally sorts it but a little more might be even better with the increasing demands under these new lights (have tried this with the soil for the next round, let's see if it keeps the LED symptoms at bay). The dolomite is slow absorption so you need to let the soil cook for two weeks or so to be fully ready.
Keep it up!!!
CC

 

[f-e]

After 10 mins, I give up finding the biobizz calmag %'s.

I have not proofed this fully, but consider this. I can pump up the power and see this so called LED problem, then cure it with Mg. I have long (decades) associated mg with greening up my plants though have never seen it said. Mg is the first sign I get, myself, with high light and either Mg or RH can sort this light green dry looking stripy behaviour in my grows.

You can get a typical 3:1 calmag and put in all you want, but it won't do much for Mg availability. Both Ca and Mg are ++ and the ratio 3:1 isn't getting Mg ahead, it's pushing out K though so both ca and mg come forth, but not specifically Mg. I note the biobizz has an unusual requirement for a Mg bump at 3 weeks 12/12 which says it's a little low. Mg is very important to LED growers. Some publications speak of nothing else. You may of noticed I'm on my own path most of the time but it's certain interesting that I'm also putting in ~ 1ml per liter(a bit more) but then pushing my Mg ahead twice more. Which sounds like lots in bottle terms but just puts Ca at double the Mg in my final solution. A ratio often published as a basic start point, though not reflected in any calmag I have seen, and I have looked at quite a few bottles including biobizz I imagine. This means calmag is really about cal and we really want mag. Which if you had 2:1 in your soil, wouldn't be aided by pouring in 3:1

I have sat back a while watching this. People with much less light unable to combat the issue, while I have sacrificed crop after crop looking for the answer to feeding under high light. You can see what I'm doing and my results. It's not fully proofed, but I feel sharing my thoughts and evidence isn't too early for peer review. It's not advice though. It's just interesting. I'm not without problems.




I soaked one of my dry rootballs and got far too much feed out of it. I wonder if drying them may make salts that are unavailable so really just toxic. Perhaps my coco can't be saved. I need another thread on coco recycling I think, to see what we are all doing.

My runoff looks good. About 1.5 and my tank is settling about 1.3 with this latest mix. Drinking lots which I can't draw a conclusion from. I know I drink lots if the beer is weak. This 1.3 - 1.5 gap is closer than expected, but I did notch up the power yesterday. After raising the lights. Lowest lux reading is 20K and most is 25K with just the tops at 30K. Migrow suggests a crap meter might say 25K at 600ppfd, while I was following HLG before who say 60K would be nice. I just know 450w is generally my limit. I see improvement from 400 to 450 but any more and I can't feed correctly. I can get by with 500 but 550 is giving my buds flat-top hair styles. I'm staying around 400 though this run. GoatCheese deserves me taking some notice (I just had 5% more yesterday, but on the whole it was less bud over 40K)

 

[jackspratt61]

After 10 mins, I give up finding the biobizz calmag %'s.

I have not proofed this fully, but consider this. I can pump up the power and see this so called LED problem, then cure it with Mg. I have long (decades) associated mg with greening up my plants though have never seen it said. Mg is the first sign I get, myself, with high light and either Mg or RH can sort this light green dry looking stripy behaviour in my grows.

You can get a typical 3:1 calmag and put in all you want, but it won't do much for Mg availability. Both Ca and Mg are ++ and the ratio 3:1 isn't getting Mg ahead, it's pushing out K though so both ca and mg come forth, but not specifically Mg. I note the biobizz has an unusual requirement for a Mg bump at 3 weeks 12/12 which says it's a little low. Mg is very important to LED growers. Some publications speak of nothing else. You may of noticed I'm on my own path most of the time but it's certain interesting that I'm also putting in ~ 1ml per liter(a bit more) but then pushing my Mg ahead twice more. Which sounds like lots in bottle terms but just puts Ca and double the Mg in my final solution. A ratio often published as a basic start point, though not reflected in any calmag I have seen, and I have looked at quite a few bottles including biobizz I imagine. This means calmag is really about cal and we really want mag. Which if you had 2:1 in your soil, wouldn't be aided by pouring in 3:1

I have sat back a while watching this. People with much less light unable to combat the issue, while I have sacrificed crop after crop looking for the answer to feeding under high light. You can see what I'm doing and my results. It's not fully proofed, but I feel sharing my thoughts and evidence isn't too early for peer review. It's not advice though. It's just interesting. I'm not without problems.




I soaked one of my dry rootballs and got far too much feed out of it. I wonder if drying them may make salts that are unavailable so really just toxic. Perhaps my coco can't be saved. I need another thread on coco recycling I think, to see what we are all doing.

My runoff looks good. About 1.5 and my tank is settling about 1.3 with this latest mix. Drinking lots which I can't draw a conclusion from. I know I drink lots if the beer is weak. This 1.3 - 1.5 gap is closer than expected, but I did notch up the power yesterday. After raising the lights. Lowest lux reading is 20K and most is 25K with just the tops at 30K. Migrow suggests a crap meter might say 25K at 600ppfd, while I was following HLG before who say 60K would be nice. I just know 450w is generally my limit. I see improvement from 400 to 450 but any more and I can't feed correctly. I can get by with 500 but 550 is giving my buds flat-top hair styles. I'm staying around 400 though this run. GoatCheese deserves me taking some notice (I just had 5% more yesterday, but on the whole it was less bud over 40K)

Spray mg sulfate..it translocates to the roots.