I feel such a failure

[vulcanofilo]

Took more looking at number than plants, but 126-130-197-178-68

I have been at 185Ca before, doing fine. Many use 185 here. Counting the 60 tap.
I read 50-75 is best for Mg and more reduces yield. So down from 80 to 68 counting 10 tap.
My base feed gives 180ppm but with their PK 305ppm. Never managed more than 20% of their boost. 197ppm for a look.
That PK boost bottle takes P to about 100 from 40 in that same feeding chart. Many find over 40 questionable, while others supply 200. It's luxury P over 100 perhaps. All reads considered. Mine like it though. Perhaps due to the chloride, who may also be why my N is up on most but not all (by a long shot) at @125ppm

Looking at most bottles. Only my N, P and Ca is high.

Bro, hello from Spain.

I have the same problem for years.

You have a virose, o severals.

Dont get more arround.

Learn abouth It, and sorry for my inglish.

Más in spanish..

Llevo muchos años estudiando de problema que afecta a muchos cultivadores. Los síntomas de presenta son diversos muchas veces falta de calcio magnesio arrugas en las hojas , ya que estás tan preocupado por este tema infórmate sobre esto.
Vas a cambiar muchas veces de sustrato alimentación luces ventilación y siempre te vas a encontrar el mismo problema.

 

[f-e]

Hi Vulcanofilo. I'm not sure. It's been on my mind. There is a strong connection to runoff EC though. I'm looking at that right now. I don't get deformed/wrinkled leaves, but if you have a virus in mind I will have a look.

My flush yesterday was better than I thought. Must of started at 17 and finished about 8 so I saw the average 12 . Today 13 in 11 out, AM feed. PM feed might be 13/13

I have my next tank figured. Generally weaker, with Mg weakened the most (if its just going to sit about. I have noticed this in runoff) and Ca weakened the least. Just for topping up the correct solution. 71-93-138-130-47 Guessing what they might of used until they get flushed again.

 

[f-e]

Well I have gone off on a bit of a tangent. I want to see some N deficiency. It won't help yield but by week 4 some N relocation would be nice to see. I want to find where the bottom yellows at this time. In a weeks time when they are about dead, they will grow again at 110-100-200-150-50 from my logs. Mg at 38 will bring Mg signs. I'm going to lower both N and Mg, along with fe, and watch.

Now a bomb dropped earlier. Other than where disturbed, the front row have had the bad leaves but don't really show further spread of the brown hair. For once, my more susceptible plants are all on one row, and I clearly see over 2 days they have browned a fair bit more, yet didn't really do the leaf thing. The front row do get burnt leaf tips more, while the back row more hairs gone. It's the back row that are the reining champions for the longest of times who I expect to do better, but it's not so.

Lets see one

I know.. not starting at the tips. My mistake.
Under 4 weeks, it's bad.
Our side by side again

That Crit-Kush is right to the frame in places. It's immune to high light and has done nothing but some Mg like signs on one leaf.
Have a look

It's on run 3 iirc. It toasts in the end and stunts, but it's looking great to me here. I can't have much N moved from the bottom or it will be from buds.
The burnt one should beat it. First run it did. Second about level. Now it's looking like a title holder

EC didn't climb past 13.
That big flush 9 days ago come with a feed change. I switched to PCD (phosphoric acid) from NCD (n-acid). As I'm mulling over in another thread, That wasn't good for the availability of tap borne Ca&Mg. PCD is bad, NCD is good. One turning 10-20% to nitrate forms, the other taking 10-20% out of solution.

110-145(I found 20 in the tap)-200-150-60
This is less N and I don't think it will matter. The P is well over the 30 or 40 seen as needed by the UNI's and well into the luxury consumption area. K I'm still unsure of. Ca I have made more available, but dropped a bit. I will put it up again I think. Mg I have lowered quite a lot. 50-75 is published as good, and 100 bad. Small adjustments are seen at the runoff so I think an amount is nice to have, but it's not really used. It just builds up. I need to look at that..
No fe increase. I will watch for fe and zn signs as an indicator for too much P.

I don't think I'm cut out for stopping Mg and regulating it by hand. I have to go away for weeks on end. I need a feed that works for everyone. I think I have a related idea though. I have seen base feeds used without amendments or runoff. The supplier must have them balanced around daily needs. Maybe I should load up after flush, then feed little more all week. I'm not just thinking about Mg here. Perhaps everything lowered, except Ca which needs to help my coco.

I'm trying to balance everybodies ideas against my own logs and findings. Without going so extreme it makes little sense to me.

jackspratt61 do you grow outdoors mostly?
I don't have Gypsum on the shelf but my water probably filtered through Gypsum and Sandstone. I have lots of calcium oxide I don't need though.

Just 3 pics?
Oh yes, the bad leaf plant. Showing burning tips like others, but more advanced on this lighter yellow plant. Looks like some sort of burn. Likely my issue manifesting in another way.

That kind of colour usually means low pH (its not though) or Mg. I greened them all up with Mg last week. It's a thing. But not with this receding.

I have a sore chin from 5 hours rubbing it with a pen top.

 

[GoatCheese]

Well I have gone off on a bit of a tangent. I want to see some N deficiency. It won't help yield but by week 4 some N relocation would be nice to see. I want to find where the bottom yellows at this time.

As you say, it won’t help yields if you start seeing N deficiency at week 4 and bottom leaves yellowing. I don’t wanna see that on my plants. Yes, i want to start dropping N abit after first 3 weeks of flowering but not so much that i start seeing bottom leaves yellowing.

 

[jackspratt61]

I grow in coco with testing. Your N is good. You have hard water and most likely buildup from previous use of mg,na,fe in your coco. Hard water alone will not properly rinse the coco and often comes with bicarbonates that block Calcium. I have testing and experience on the matter. At this point in the grow light top dresses (tsp) of gypsum till finish would help.

 

[f-e]

I did a wursel gummage and changed my head. Picking up on another line of reasoning.
Flushing every few days hasn't changed anything compared to barely flushing. I have been high and low with runoff, with little change. Same with feed. My coco isn't new, so isn't gradually picking up something. My problems are only as the plants should be banging on the weight. Veg is fine. Preflower. Finishing. All fine. It's the middle weeks, and it's not mild.

Shops open tomorrow from lockdown. I'm not sure if I should go RO or just 0.5micron carbon block. Either will fit in my automated plumbing, but I fancy the filter. I have seen results with a good carbon (same supply, but years back).

I'm trying to think when I started putting in the Epsom. I seem to be putting in a lot of fluid. I didn't used to. I have certainly started during this room build, early on. I'm going to knock it on the head. I can only get down to 30ppm though and it's just a rerun of a check done a few times before. This time I will look at dosing just one day. Then waiting.

The point this happens is when the need for N drops and P+K rises. Which I don't do much about. Ca and Mg use also starts dropping away. Only my K could be thought of as low, and it's not really. Signs do point at it sometimes though.

What could be only effecting flowering, and not really late on. I dare say that coco could veg a plant without any conditioning. Are they looking for K but taking on sodium?

Gotta go. Be back for some more pencil chewing later

Thanks for the continued help. It's just no fun watching run after run fail.

 

[flylowgethigh]

This system is easier than living soil? I won't use epsom salts again, as they make the reservoir water light up the truncheon.

Too bad about the pub.

 

[f-e]

Pubs reopen in 57 minutes, and I'm counting them!

 

[f-e]

Back to the topic.

I have used my base feed in RO before. Nothing else, just the single part feed. The bloom is 98-43-179-50-Mg not quantified. I may of mixed it stronger though. Crop looked good, but rockwool slabs are not great and I got a low yield. I always suspected some went missing tbh.

This feed can work.

Today using NCD it's ~113ppm N. That's 15N's that might turn as many as 30 of my 60 calcium carbonates into calnit.
P 115+20 I found in the tap.
K 197 with the extra coming from P.S (potsil)
Ca up to 160. That's 50 from the feed, 50 from a Mono source, 60 from the tap.
Dropped Mg to 45 which is about what they are using at a wild guess. It's below optimum and about where I get signs. Though signs perhaps show as toxicity pushes it out. My base feed must have very little to not be listing it. That's the law..

They get that tomorrow.

Today, little change. The advance may of slowed but has also started to spread to the Fluffy looking one, the crit-kush. I'm yet to upload the pics to really see.

 

[f-e]

Where there was 1, there are 3. Like cascade failure. It doesn't seem to of grown either

No real growth here either

Or here

The leaf problem grew though. It's the one with nearly all the leaf issues, but not a single singed hair

While the ones with the most singed hair, showed no leaf problems. I considered two faults, but it's two ways to manifest. Some plants have a bit of both. I have the full range of fucked.

From here, it will just get worse. In 2 weeks they may of doubled, and I will be in a position to change them.


I have no shops yet, but understand the idea that the gypsum is calcium and sulfates and both will displace other cations from my coco. I'm unsure how much to use though.
I wonder if I have some fixation issues the roots eat at, that water will never wash away. This coco has needed wetting agents after drying in storage, after use. I'm going to have to chuck it is I just don't know.
My water report, to my eye, isn't terrible. 7ppm sodium. 15 sulphates. 20 phosphates. 0.3ec of hardness from a Gypsum/limestone/clay area. The report seems fairly moderate.

One part feeds. Are they, by nature, salty? I have looked at a couple of other grows with other ones and they have burnt off early to. I was asked by a passing punter (while shopping) why I used mine as it's salty. The drippers don't really calcify.


I really want to know what it is. Being very close, even solving it, won't be satisfying if I don't know exactly what happened. I think I'm going to turn to water sampling. It might mean pulling a plant out to soak it with water from the dehumidifier, but that's no real cost.

Edit: I do have calcium from the Mono range. I can go silly with it. It doesn't seem like there is an upper limit. 85% in soil... I'm not going to get there

 

[f-e]

Slam the brakes on. I could be a long way off the reservation here. I'm using the Canna Mono range. I was told they are mono. The canna site didn't indicate otherwise. I have a bottle of P here, it's 0-17-0 so all looks good. I stopped in the small print something I failed to find online. It contains phosphoric acid and potassium hydroxide. I thought the hydroxide must be unavailable and just to balance pH. I read 48 hours ago it's available, but doesn't add to the salt count. I overlooked it for now.

I just went to look over the calcium bottle. Hazard related labeling, calcium nitrate.

If my mono isn't mono, I can probably accept a few digs from everyone, but WTF CANNA

Now I'm walking away. I need a break. This probably changes everything.

 

[vulcanofilo]

Where there was 1, there are 3. Like cascade failure. It doesn't seem to of grown either
No real growth here either
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Or here
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The leaf problem grew though. It's the one with nearly all the leaf issues, but not a single singed hair
filedata/fetch?id=17830378&d=1618199027
While the ones with the most singed hair, showed no leaf problems. I considered two faults, but it's two ways to manifest. Some plants have a bit of both. I have the full range of fucked.

From here, it will just get worse. In 2 weeks they may of doubled, and I will be in a position to change them.


I have no shops yet, but understand the idea that the gypsum is calcium and sulfates and both will displace other cations from my coco. I'm unsure how much to use though.
I wonder if I have some fixation issues the roots eat at, that water will never wash away. This coco has needed wetting agents after drying in storage, after use. I'm going to have to chuck it is I just don't know.
My water report, to my eye, isn't terrible. 7ppm sodium. 15 sulphates. 20 phosphates. 0.3ec of hardness from a Gypsum/limestone/clay area. The report seems fairly moderate.

One part feeds. Are they, by nature, salty? I have looked at a couple of other grows with other ones and they have burnt off early to. I was asked by a passing punter (while shopping) why I used mine as it's salty. The drippers don't really calcify.


I really want to know what it is. Being very close, even solving it, won't be satisfying if I don't know exactly what happened. I think I'm going to turn to water sampling. It might mean pulling a plant out to soak it with water from the dehumidifier, but that's no real cost.

Edit: I do have calcium from the Mono range. I can go silly with it. It doesn't seem like there is an upper limit. 85% in soil... I'm not going to get there

Realmente piensas aún en un problema con los nutrientes??

 

[vulcanofilo]

Ves lo mismo?

 

[f-e]

Less nutrient is my next move. It's not high, and I have been reducing various parts. I'm not meant to go lower but too much would do something like this.
For whatever reason, they can't eat it. My runoff rises to quickly.
I have ordered an RO filter today and I'm switching feeds now I have a better idea of the npk they respond to best. Mixing my own is trusting too many bottles to not contain bad salts

 

[f-e]

Well today was my first chance to actually buy anything, but I didn't get anywhere. Unbelievably, more important things cropped up.

With the diagnostics I have, including plants I'm not that interested in saving now, I will carry on prodding with my stick.

There is a timing dynamic here that tells a story I'm trying to read. I can take this coco and veg a plant in it, no problem. I can get to 14 days alright. Feeding 1.6 and getting less back. Then they stop eating and burn. But as said, I can take the coco and veg in it. The plants only really care as they try to bang the weight on. A time when the need for N drops and the use of P&K increases. I'm not seeing too much N, like enough to curl leaves. I read cannabis will take sodium preferentially over K. Being able to use sodium for 90% of it's K demand. They might of meant rope.

There is no point doing nothing, when I can still learn from them.

82-100-135-155-45

Low N as I'm still seeing no lack of it. P more than reasonable, though by no means the highest. K kept low. I believe sodium is a big issue, and they can eat it. Giving them K also is just loads of food. Ca fair, it's not high but it's highest. Mg where I'm sure it works, and it's Epsom so lots of sodium shifting sulphate.



I can't figure my base feed. it's says 7ml, targeting ec1.5
7ml in ec0.3 tap will come out around 1.2 so it doesn't add up. The feeds 0.9 so I add 50% more feed? 0.6 calmag? It doesn't work out. So I can't compare it's salt content to other feeds on a ppm v ec basis.

My tap can't be that bad. I used to use this source years ago. Got the leaf issues but not this. I have seen this in other grows though. They think they have 5 week strains. As they brown and finish looking otherwise reasonable.

I'm going to ignore the mono issue. In a few days I will have better balanced feeds anyway. I just won't be happy switching to RO and a new feed. It's running away.

I took pics, but it's just more burning with slow development.

I flushed them a bit today. That's every few days. The ec was rising 0.2 a day the last 48 hours. Just a week back it was 0.1 a day. A week before, it was dropping. This lowering feed demand is a constant across all the grows since the first here. When it should be going up. The more they turn to PK from N, the more they refuse to eat. Yet they grow in it fine. Just a little Ca def when tiny.

This would be so easy if they legalised it here.

 

[f-e]

Ves lo mismo?

No I don't have rolled margins or distorted leaves. I have burnt tips and receding colour.
I decided to get you a better pic, and it seems that not a lot happened today. Hairs already going brown, finished doing so. Nothing really grew though. They drank but ate little.

I don't have a calibrated light meter, but it's very bright. I have had to use Epsom to control the signs LEDs bring about for many. I have pushed them hard with light before, establishing levels to keep them looking good, in the hope I could find a balance between pushing the light and adding the Epsom that could move things forward for everybody. The work we want the universities to do.

Not doing much is a bit of a win. Run-off crawled up to 18, and took a pots worth of cf6 to come down to 12(1.2ec) So that may of stopped them eating, and doing much. Little brown though, that's a result. Everything is within about 10% of where it was a week ago. Mg was 45 though. 60 the day before, 68 the one before that, When I flushed. Before that mostly 80. So it's seen the biggest drop by some margin. Though my runoff has still gone from 11 to 18 in 3 days with maybe 40% runoff.

My Mg is Epsom, so the sulphate is getting high. I shouldn't use Epsom to make up so much of the Mg as the ratio is wrong. I don't see it now, but somewhere warned calcium would be at risk from high sulphate levels. Canna mono lists mgso.


Bills tissue graphs show cal+mag levels dropping after a week in bloom. That could be as they no longer take it so heavily.

It's getting interesting now, as I can see something having an effect. Perhaps tomorrows result will have me bang everything back up, except Mg. Just to single it out. It's the only diagnostic I have

 

[GoatCheese]

If your run off EC is rising it’s because the coco has been embedded with salts and you haven’t flushed it hard enough to get it all out of there. Like i’ve said few times, coco is like a sponge and it keeps holding onto stuff for a good while, it’s not like hydroton pebbles that are easy to rinse out.
...and if you’re re-using coco and the old coco was also filled with salts, then it’s not gonna rinse clean in just few days. I suggested some days a go that you might have to flush the shit out of that coco DAILY with large volumes of water going thru it, but if you’re only going to do it every other/every 2-3 days it might not work so well.

If you haven’t all ready, then i recommend you google and read thru info about how people with salt issues flush their coco to get an idea of how difficult this can be. When i say “flush the shit out of it”, it really means that, and when people have had bad salt build up issues then it’s a daily task and can take many days depending how bad the issue is.


Anyways, try to finish the grow any way you can = you prolly have to keep flushing it fairly often till you get to harvest time.. Then bin all your old coco, don’t re-use any of it, and start fresh with unused coco.
Also, maybe you should get some Canna's normal nute line for the next grow and go back to work with their Mono line once you can finish a grow without an issue and after that start tinkering with the Mono line to find your own feeding blend.

 

[f-e]

I like the numbers on the flora nova. It's where I keep finding myself. It's too strong to finish on though. Ionic soil is where I end up. Quite handy that both are single part as I don't have dosing for two bottles set up

I thought you meant the old stuff wanted a flush each day. The system is getting it every 3. Down to near tap, but I have no idea how so much can be in there that it bounces back so quick. The speed of which, is however, dependent on the day of the cycle. Which would mean it's usage related, not entirely old salts from the coco.

Flushing is awkward. It's like working in the loft when your missis don't know. I have to pick my moments.

That RO machine will be a good flushing tool. My waters not great.

 

[GoatCheese]

I like the numbers on the flora nova. It's where I keep finding myself. It's too strong to finish on though.

Too strong for finishing? Do you mean the Nitrogen level in Flora Nova Bloom (NPK 4-8-7)?
If that’s what you mean then you could replace some of the Flora Bloom with a PK 13/14. That is what i do with my BioBizz nutrients when i wanna drop the N level in later part of flowering. I replace some of the BioBizz Grow with Canna PK13/14.
..For me the ratio is 1ml of Canna PK 13/14 replaces 1 ml of BioBizz Grow

 

[f-e]

At the moment I can turn just about any feed into anything. It's a lot of bottles though. My ideal situation is finding 3 recipe's that can carry me though flower. Then finding the blends already exist.

While I can blend most ppm ratios, I'm also putting in a lot of rubbish with what I'm using. Looking at calcium, I have canna mono, a bottle that should give me just calcium. You can't have just calcium though, it's not soluble enough (I have a bag.. I failed). They use calcium nitrate to make it. A source of calcium and nitrogen. But as it's only meant to be calcium in the bottle, there must be a third party to lock up the N. So, to get Ca I have Ca N and more. Now, If I were doing this properly I would look at calcium nitrate as what it is, and use it's Ca and N as much as possible in my blend. That's the correct holistic approach that the phone apps help with. We say what result we want and they say what to use. I think? as I deleted mine within about 10 seconds.

If you can just use PK that's great as they balance together. That's why I will probably shift feeds to one with lower N. It keeps everything else up, but that feed does expect some PK adjustment. I bet I will be adding Ca and Mg but is smaller quantities, to reduce the excesses that brings. I suspect the amount of Mg I use now carries a lot of sulphur and reducing my base feed makes me need even more Epsom.

It's quite involved.



The grow.. I know the tank was 11 today, as there was no leftover from yesterday, as it was a quick flush last thing at night. This also left my pH high as I didn't correct for it. oops.

AM watering produced 10, and PM 11. Typical after a flush as the coco loads up again. RH tipped over 60 too 64 so that's a sign I can have some distilled water tomorrow The de-hu is sorting that right now.

I have not looked, it's never good news. Weak feed after a flush, it's gonna be stripey