Hermaphrodite

[Guest]

From page one:

that may well be the situation, but from what im gettin outta this discussion, that plant is not worthy of continued breedin in any cross. and the breeder did not do enough testin or none at all to the parent stock before releasein the line.

growers should not see any male flowers of any kind in any type of enviorment, if they do, its the breeders fault not the grower. pretty simple imo, no male flowers in any circumstance.

thats the goal

CBF

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

that may well be the situation, but from what im gettin outta this discussion, that plant is not worthy of continued breedin in any cross. and the breeder did not do enough testin or none at all to the parent stock before releasein the line.

growers should not see any male flowers of any kind in any type of enviorment, if they do, its the breeders fault not the grower. pretty simple imo, no male flowers in any circumstance.

thats the goal

CBF

If that's the case, then there are no good breeders, and there have never been any good breeding projects done.

You original line of thinking was much closer to the reality of the situation, CBF.

I still challenge anybody to send me non-reversable seeds. Since they don't exist, or at the very best are a rare anomaly, I'm absolutely not worried about having to eat my words.

No worries... I'm gonna continue my projects just like I always have. Selecting for the best traits, and selecting away from sensitivities. In my opinion this is the real work of breeding... Searching for and selecting the best, while selecting away from any negative traits like reversals.

IMHO you'll come alot further, Starting with Plants that already have incredible flavor and potency, and then selecting away from weaknesses like stress sensitivities... than you will selecting for 'sexual purity' and hoping to then Isolate some hypothetical elite quality pheno...

I'm done on this thread... everyone knows what I think, and how I select...
I'll never cull a super potent plant just because some screw up can reverse it under extreme conditions, and I'll never breed with a plant that reverses easily...

In all reality, only time (not speculation) will show what methods produce consistantly superior plants.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

No male flowers in any circumstances is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Guest]

Hola head, yep thats how i was doin it as well, but here im gettin a much different approach. its hard for me to doubt Sam or Wally, as i respect there inputs, and been doin it far longer then myself.

i want to learn and make quality seedlines, and if growin and testin a multitude of plants is what it takes, then that will be the direction i go.

as we all know, lots of plants is the way to go, just gonna take quite a bit longer then what i been doin. also like your sayin, you wouldnt cull a potent plant with a few nanners, but if ya think on it, theres gonna be just as potent in a larger look, and should be able to find a plant without the male flowers right up there with the one that tosses a few nanners.

i understand what your sayin, your not goin to bin a seedline cause of a growers OP, but if you had tested the plants used under conditions which are found in numerous grows you wouldnt see the male flowers.

this just happened to me, i gifted seed to a med site, a grower had two females and she says 2/3rds of the plant is spittin nanners at 6 or 7 wks. owner of the site has said no one else has reported problems with my seed. i asked nice to sit in the grow and see if she had light leaks. which she did, around her door.

others have also said they had slight leaks when they encounterd male flowers. so i just chalked it up to poor growin conditions. when in fact i didnt do enough testin to ensure this does not happen.

believe me when i understand what your sayin, as ive been able to flip just about any plant i want to. moisture stress seems to work best ime. im havein a hard time as well tryin to swallow this info. seems crazy, but i cant dispute what others with way more experience then myself says different.

i dont believe Sam is here to misdirect anyone, pretty sure hes here to help, and teach. so for me its back to square one, ive requested whats left of my seed be pulled and not sold at the med site. better for all involved.

so now what to work on, hehe

CBF

 

[JimmyEatWorld]

Under what kind of stress do you put a plant to see if it's a True Female ?

Is "artificial stress" (light leaks etc) used to determine a true female ? Can you test it in a situation that cannot happen outdoors ?

Nice thread

 

[Dalaihempy]

I never saw Indicas in Thailand and I lived and traveled there for years.

As for hermis they can show early at sexing, they can show mid flowering, they can show late in flowering, they can show at the very end of flowering. They can have a few male flowers, they can have whole branches male, they can have most of the plant turn male, they can have male and female together or on separate locations. All of the above are intersexed, just to differing degrees, and differing expression. I would say that easily 3/4 or more of the Thai seeds I imported and grew were intersexed, and I have grown thousands, and thousands. And most did not show intersex at sexing.

-SamS

Hiya sam first off i respect you and think your one of the pioners but i my self have never seen a thia line ever show hermie traits after they were sexet as a female or any pure sativa i had ever run out doors even the ones i later run indoors once it was sexet as fem stayed as a female.

I never ran 1000s of plants but i did run a few diffrent thia lines not one line i got was collected from fields all were collected from imported lots and 1 was collected from thailand by a friend all were before 85.

All the ones i did grow that hermied showed at onset of sex.

Did some of these lines ever get put threw stress yes from storm damage were i had main steams snaping to hail and other factors wen one grows out doors it is expected some years.

I have tho seen some lines produce 1 seed and i thort it was a preservation trigger but not a thia line to date tho .

Im only going by my growing experences and observations to date sam .

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Hola head, yep thats how i was doin it as well, but here im gettin a much different approach. its hard for me to doubt Sam or Wally, as i respect there inputs, and been doin it far longer then myself.
i asked nice to sit in the grow and see if she had light leaks. which she did, around her door.

others have also said they had slight leaks when they encounterd male flowers. so i just chalked it up to poor growin conditions. when in fact i didnt do enough testin to ensure this does not happen.

believe me when i understand what your sayin, as ive been able to flip just about any plant i want to.

so now what to work on, hehe

CBF

Where in nature are you going to find sunlight leaking in around a door all night?

I understand what you are saying as well, best of luck finding that anomaly.

Think about it a bit, in practical terms... Most of the time one plant in hundreds or a thousand is top of the line elite quality, especially if you exclude all lines which are known to have inter-sexed plants. Now couple that with the rarity of plants which cannot be reversed by any stresses whatsoever, Say one in a thousand as well... that makes the probability of finding a single plant that meets these breeding criteria something along the lines of one in one million... That's like winning the lottery! Then not only do you have to do it once, but if you find a female the first million, you need to grow another million to find a compatible male with the same standards... but you've only got a 50/50 chance per million... but let's assume you find them in the first million, each time...

That means to begin test breeding to see how the plants cross up, you have to grow out and stress in every possible way (or have lab analyzed by a geneticist) between half a million and two million plants... Then you can cross them and see how the seeds come out...

Drop back, and give credit for one plant in 500 being unreversable, and on in 500 being elite quality(ECSD, ChemdogD, OGKush quality)... still growing out, and testing 250,000 plants before you can even begin the breeding project seems a daunting task at the very least.

The population numbers required for such a project, alone, make it very improbable in the current political climate of the world.

Also, don't ya think eliminating 249999 plants out of 250000 is gonna bottleneck the genepool just a bit?

The easiest way is to try and stress them to express the opposite sex. If you can then it is not TRUE. If you try every method of stress for several years without any reversals then maybe you got one...
-SamS

Has any breeder ever really done it this way?

 

[Guest]

like i said it seems crazy to me, i dont know and im listenin to guys that been around for a long time. from what ive grown i dont see how ya can ever get rid of this intersexed tendency. seems its hardwired in all cannabis. some worse then others.

i dont think there has been a plant yet, that i couldnt reverse(mainly females) moisture stress, light, leaks, light poisenin, extended light periods durin flower, high temps. one of those will do the trick, id sure be happy to grow some non herm plants if there is such a thing

CBF

 

[Guest]

i was under the impression that the big number breeders, like in greenhouses and such, were selectin the best of a crop, and usin those as parent stock, i didnt know they were thrashin each and every selected plant in every imaginable enviorment to ensure they were true males/females.

CBF

 

[Barefrog]

Hey CBF

The way I see it is that your going
for an OMG and its not possible if
you dont have the labs and the zillion $
to do the research.
Plus I dont think that the breeder
should be responsible for the grower’s
mistake.
I think that your line of seed are great
I havent grown any but I saw it on the
site in question. Shure some people
will make mistake and some plant will turn.
However if grown properly they wont do nanner.

We also have to ponder if we want to play
god with genetics and remove something
from the plant that is there for a reason.
Even if we havent found that reason yet.

I had some Pineberry that did a few nanner
on me outside but never inside, it just give
me a few feminised seed for the next season.

Same with Oregon90 I ran it in and out
never got any nanno on it but some
people after growing some F2 found nanno
at weeks 6-7 inside.

Nature have its own way of preserving
herself, what ever we do nature win.

I love that tread,
ps: CBF too bad about removing the gen
from the site I was going for some of it.

Bare

 

[OHenry]

Not to be redundant (OR WAY OFF FOR THAT MATTER) ...but Couldn't you say that late MALE flowers are meant to simply support the XY structure (self-preservation) as opposed to being involved in changing the XY structure?

or...is there a chemical change that takes place during/after a hermaphidic (did I just create a word) episode?

Sorry I came late into this conversation but I must say it has been one of the most informative and mentally entertaining discussions on the boards lately. Nearly consumed two hours of reading/rereading @ work. hehe.

To all those that have contributed THANKS!

I'll smoke a BIG spliff of SOUR for you all- nanners and all

Oh

 

[FOE20]

I think OHenry is right on...Late nannas arnt Hermi trait..nor rev sexed stressed induced anything but trying to keep its line alive..Some would even say a Feminized seed would be created..
To test small population or a certain Pheno for P1 stable qualities I'd say about every type of normal stress it would go thru trying to keep it going in general..
Cloneing is the frist stress..Does it take a clone easy?..do clones thrive after ward..Does the plant rebound and come back stronger or get slow and act pissed off?..Transplanting..Messing with light cycles can make it seem like different Long/Lats but its usually done to the Clone gen and not orig P1 mothers..The longer a plant aclimitizes to a envire the harder it is to get it to wack out if its true or Pure Fem..I've had a few that took a touch of light leak to show instant hermis in a solid enviro..Those were a Seedsman Afghani #1 (pure?..heh)...and a White Rhino but not sure what breeder..
I can shake the NL#5 I hold by the neck...stick it roots in cold / hot or over P nutrient to try rev stress methods..short light cycles in early bloom..STS...all kinds of shit..Shes rock solid at 7-8yrs old..same with my FOEBerry at 11 yrs old..
As soon as I see a ball hanging off any Female its histiory..I dont get the confusion really..Its logical I always thought..
FOE20

 

[Guest]

First off, I'm just a closet grower with very limited space so my experiences might not correlate with growers that have the opportunity to run a shitload of plants. Since previously I had mention Strawbery D as a plant that throws a very few nanners late in the game I'll bring her back up as an example. Firstly, I'm pretty sure the very occasional nanner she gets doesn't even throw out pollen nevermind viable pollen as I have never found even an immature seed. So what threat does this renegade nanner really represent? It doesn't affect anything as far as a grower is concerned. I'm talking one or two nanners on the entire plant, surely weight is not an issue. It doesn't reproduce, hurt potency or affect anything that I can see. Ok, as far as breeding, I am a pollen chucker to the bone, I work with very limited numbers in a very small area and nothing that I make is for any type of commercial reason. Ok, that said, I crossed a lady strawberry d with a male doubledog (which has got chemdog in it which also can produce male flowers). I have also crossed the strawberry d x doubledog with a few other varieties (conquistador, panama red, astroboy, supersilverhaze, blockhead) and none of them have ever put out a single nanner which is a bit surprising because both strawberry d and chemdog will put out the very occasional nanner late in flower. The panama red x strawberry d x dd kind of surprised me the most because even though the panama red mom I have doesn't herm most of the PR seeds that I grew out did, some VERY heavily. I'm thinking the only way to really know is to grow.

Hers a few pics of some of the crosses

 

[Guest]

first pic is panama red x sddxdd, the next is bhxdd, and the last two are strawberry d x dd

 

[guest123]

if it looks like a dog and barks like a dog , smells like a dog ,, well its a dog .....

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

but the thread ain't about dogs or horses... there are plenty of valid points you could address directly, no need for overgeneralizing analogies....

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Thing is there are alot of degrees of intersexuality... From a plant showing one or two non pollen producing bananas late in flower, to plants that show both sexes from onset of preflowering, and everywhere in between... Are you trying to say that everything that makes a noise which sounds like a dog is a dog? To even imagine that it is the same mechanism which causes all of these different phenomenon is ludicrous... much less to think that the elimination of these varying traits is a good idea...

Full blown hermies? Plants with extreme sensitivities? No way they should be bred...

A late flower impotent banana without even a properly formed male flower around it? Never gonna make me dismiss a killer plant... Because it ISN't a hermi!

Go ahead and grow out and stress test your 250,000 plants for several years so you MIGHT find a TRUE male or a TRUE female, if they don't have any recessive genes... Anything short of that would be hypocritical, after all...

 

[Farmer John]

i was under the impression that the big number breeders, like in greenhouses and such, were selectin the best of a crop, and usin those as parent stock, i didnt know they were thrashin each and every selected plant in every imaginable enviorment to ensure they were true males/females.

CBF

Thats exactly my thoughts bro, and thats how it works im 99% sure because almost everything I've bought has somekind of freaks and hermies in there and if the breeding was done by selecting only true females and males then there shouldnt be any transvestite plants in there, just males and females and thats not what I have seen, good examples would be Dutch Passion, GHS and Sensi, mostly bullshit genes and I think that its because of their shit breeding methods and shitty parental stock. Have a great day. Oh yeah, and this makes me think of all these hermie bagseed elite thingies going around these days, they CANT be very good for breeding if you think about it this way, it is hermie breeding.

 

[Chamba]

Hiya tiedye well thia was also called budda often thia sticks or budda sticks were the main names used

but is was never referred to as "Buddha sticks" in Thailand....back when "thai sticks" were available most Thais would never associate ganja with Buddha..even those who used and grew it

thais ...I used to grow Thais in the tropics for years.......as Sam mentioned, you could get heart breaking hermies at any stage of flowering.

 

[Dalaihempy]

hi all what wallys saying is if it looks like a hermi acts like a hermi it must be a hermi.

You know guys i get a little confused reading some posts at times when it comes to sativas not saying im an expert but becouse some things just dont add up to wat i my self have seen and experencet as a grower and i am lucky to live were i can do them out doors and the seeds we got back then came from friends brothers / uncles so on or from seeds we found in imported or localy grown cannabis wich was imported at some time as no mj is native here like most places on earth it was intruducet by man and back then there was no seed sales.

I started growing pure sativas some with names a lot with out names and i never saw sativas once they were sexet go hermi ever i only started to read this from boards like this.

If sativas are so hermi prone as a few seam to think how is it lines in the modern pool grown by many wich have a 50% sat in there mix or more when it comes to say haze hybreeds are not throwing out hermies left and right becouse if sativas are so hermi prone wouldnt they carrie threw ?.



Hiya Chamba a thia line a friend collected for me from thiland infact was called golden budda i dont know what erea it was grown in all i know is the guy who he got it from who was a nativa sed it was the best thia he could get.

Also stressing cannabis to see if they will hermie has me thinking in that natreal stress a plant may experence in nature is one thing unatreal stress some put there plants threw indoors like lite leek / chemicals is diffrent to what any plant would be sujected threw in any natreal inviroment is it posible that will couse cell mutation and hermies showing up diffrently to say plants grown in optumin conditions that are not subjected to mans stupidity.