Hermaphrodite

[REZDOG]

Hmmmm....

Hmmmm....

~ ~ ~ ~
To be sure,an interesting thread,full of Utopian dreams and sci-fi pseudo-theories,well-spread, albeit,amongst the actual truth of the matter under discussion.
What fun. :smile:


On another note;FJ,where you're at, geographically,you have absolutely no f'ing 'elite' clones available to you,so the actual bottom line of your posts is:You're talking out of your ass,as is per usual,lately.
(Again,get some fiber in your diet!)
I have an idea: Why don't you shut your f*cking trap and learn something,instead of wasting bandwidth and spouting half-assed rhetoric,wasting the time of those of us with a Clue.
You're clearly a tool,and it shows.

Now,back to The Discussion.

 

[Guest]

On another note;FJ,where you're at, geographically,you have absolutely no f'ing 'elite' clones available to you,so the actual bottom line of your posts is:You're talking out of your ass,as is per usual,lately.

lol , yes lets take talking out of your ass advice from Rez.

Sorry man but your one hypocritical bastard, if someone else posted a post that was that harsh towards you, you'd go whining to have them banned. You should read your own troll thread sticky, because your above post looks like a flame/troll to me and I KNOW it fits YOUR requirements... hows that for some fiber? thanks .

 

[REZDOG]

Ho,hum.
Speaking of lacking fibre...
....If I wanted to hear from a bran-free,uptight asshole,I would have called you,kinder.
That being said,I don't have to 'whine',I simply act.
You,whine.
Let me explain s l o w l y,so you can u n d e r s t a n d:
FJ's talking from his ass,something you're no stranger to,and I'll call you on it,same as him,any time I choose.
Don't like it? There's always www.kissmyass.com you can go file a complaint there. :smile:

 

[Guest]

Jeezus Rez, chill out man, if other folks ripped on you like that you'd be mad, just go smoke a bowl.

Interesting to read what TomHill wrote about true hermaphroditic flowers with both staminate and pistillate parts. I had a Widowhaze x Grapefruitbowl lady a couple of months ago that had a male banana, it showed up in mid flowering and just slowly turned yellow and died off. Wierd thing is, it was only this one solitary banana and it was growing out of a calyx, poking between the two pistils, at the time I thought it was strange. The pics aren't all that clear, but it was definitely growing out of the calyx, I remember spotting it when it first poked its head out between the still green pistils.

As for chucking away and female that shows a nanner or two, if I did that i would have missed out on some of the best smokes I have ever experienced. I have a Colombian Gold lady I have kepot as a mother for nearly 3 years, when she first showed sex, she had nothing but pistils. A week later I see one tiny male ball on her. To this date that is the only male ball I have seen on her and she was flowered for 16 weeks, revegged, cloned, and kept as a mother. I have given cuts to a few people who have grown her out and I have grown a couple of dozen clones of her to fruition and never seen another nanner, ever. No-one I gave the cut to has reported any nanners either.

Jeezus Rez, chill out man, if other folks ripped on you like that you'd be mad, just go smoke a bowl.

Interesting to read what TomHill wrote about true hermaphroditic flowers with both staminate and pistillate parts. I had a Widowhaze x Grapefruitbowl lady a couple of months ago that had a male banana, it showed up in mid flowering and just slowly turned yellow and died off. Wierd thing is, it was only this one solitary banana and it was growing out of a calyx, poking between the two pistils, at the time I thought it was strange. The pics aren't all that clear, but it was definitely growing out of the calyx, I remember spotting it when it first poked its head out between the still green pistils.


And what about that Widowhaze x Grapefruitbowl in the pic? She had that one nanner, just one and it was infertile, probably caused by a light leak or some other minor stress, she was a beautiful smoke, haven't kept clones as she wasn't exceptional, just very nice. If I'd killed her when I saw that nanner I'd have missed out on some lovely tokes.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

It is one thing to kill or not use an intersexed plant for breeding, and quite another to keep it alive and use it for herbal production but not breed with it. They are not the same as for herbal production only, has little effect on the genepool.
I would never say anything bad about a great plant, regardless if it is slightly intersexed or not. I also have seen many late flowering intersexed plants that threw a few male flowers on the tips, and many are not fertile. But I stay away from breeding with these plants, nothing wrong with smoking the reisn.

-SamS

 

[Guest]

I totally agree Sam, intersexed plants are fine for producing smokeable substances but not for breeding. However, I also agree with what zamalito says earlier in this thread about cleaning up IBLs, basically, if an outstanding line has an intersex trait but is otherwise deemed very worthy of preservation, it should be preserved and it is the duty of the breeder through careful selection and much hard work over several generations to breed out that intersex trait. It's downright criminal and highly detrimental to the genepool to distribute seeds that carry an intersex trait if you have knowledge of this trait's presence.

Then again, I have grown quite a few heirloom lines that people have shared with me that I knew had the possibility of producing intersexual individuals, the folks who shared told me it was present but the scarcity, quality and desirability of the line made it worthy of growing regardless of any undesirable sexual expressions. If I had the facilities (ooh, I don't know, say a large field in a good climate with a long season) I would love to be able to 'clean up' some of the lines I have to remove intersexual traits so I could then spread the genes far andwide for preservation. As it is, I don't so the only folks I would share these seeds with are other experienced growers who are equally happy to deal with some intersexual plants in a crop in order to experience an heirloom line for themselves.

 

[DocLeaf]

Abnormal male flower - Chitral x Skunk



,,keep, kill, or compost???

...let's push things forward

 

[Guest]

I'd say that one should definitely get the chop. To see roughly equal amounts of male and female flowers at such an early stage of flowering means you have a full-blown intersexed plant there and not only will it pollinate any other female plants in your grow, the end result will be much poorer than a proper female of that strain as you're gonna have loads of seeds, low yield, yada yada. Only two situations I can see whereby you could/should keep it:

1. it is the only plant you have or all your plants are also showing this intersexed trait, allowing he/she/it to flower will at least give you something to smoke.

2. You are growing indoors only but have a suitable spot outside in the garden where you can put he/she/it to finish flowering. Then make hash from the plant, could make a nice little batch of hash from this freak.

 

[DocLeaf]

Thanks BH

... just placed up this old photo to get the subject back on track.

It was however an abnormal flower on an otherwise male plant:





The whole plant produced 4-5 sepals at most :wink:

Most male plants (abnormal or otherwise) get pulled way before this, so the number of abnormal males floating about is relevantly unknown... when compared to the number of abnormal females/cultivars recorded.

 

[Guest]

I guessed that was why you posted it Doc, I answered it for the same reason - to keep the thread on topic, of course, I knew you knew the answer and probably have more knowledge on this subject than me anyways! lol

I have seen female flowers appearing on what were othersie normal males twice, first time was a Durban Posion x Skunk #1 freebie from Gypsy that looked very like yours in that it was a male and then suddenly it grew another node at the topmost branch that was full of pistils. The other was this poor Blueberry male that I tortured for months on end. He was flowered, pollen collected, revegged, flowered again, revegged, kept in a tiny pot, rarely fed, subjected to all kinds of light cycles, stressed as much as he could be. Eventually after 18 months of this rough treatment he produced some pistils. I made half a dozen hybrids with this male before the pistils appeared. I am not sure how to treat those hybrids now, whether to bin them. I am pretty sure the male only showed this intersex trait due to extreme stress, none of the females from this seed batch (and I kept one as a mother until recently and gew out a dozen clones at different times from her) ever showed any intersex traits at all. So Tom Sam, Wally, help me out here, what do you think about this male? Should he be considered as unsuitable for breeding because he showed some pistils after many months of high stress? In other aspects - vigour, smell, resin production, stem thickness, he was exceptional, by far the most pungent intensely smelly male I have come accross, and I made kif from the trimmings when i pruned him back (he grew and grew and grew in veg so I cut 12-15 inches off him a few times) the kif was good, similar to that from the Blueberry females.

 

[DocLeaf]

The other was this poor Blueberry male that I tortured for months on end.

That's the spirit.

I am not sure how to treat those hybrids now, whether to bin them.

sow them and watch what happens in 12/12.

So Tom Sam, Wally, help me out here, what do you think about this male? Should he be considered as unsuitable for breeding because he showed some pistils after many months of high stress?

Good question. We've been thinking the same thing :wink:

 

[Herbalistic]

I got the same thing going on with OH x SK#1 than you BH. My one is a female that pulls single ball starting from calyx if I change my timer even once with half an hour.. She did again, now with viable pollen in the mix..

 

[Guest]

I have only kept a female with an intersex trait on one occasion, that was a truly exceptional Big Bud female, she was intensely purple, absolutely immense yield, more potent and tasty than other Big Buds I've grown and I really liked the smoke unlike a lot of Big Buds I've tried. Thing is, stress her and she threw nanners, not crazy amounts, but enough to be a problem and they were evenly distributed about the plant, mixed in with the pistillate flowers and they produced viable pollen. I kept her for 4 runs then ditched her, was too difficult to avoid her chucking nanners, but in a better grow setup with less stress, she could have been a top producer of kind bud.

Two other females I have kept have shown bllas, one is that Colombian Gold I mentioned that had one tiny ball once, and never showed another ever, through dozens of cuts being flowered yada, yada, other was a feminised Zamal x Neville's Haze by Female Seeds, this one has 3 male balls when she first shoed sex. I picked them off and have not seen another male part on her since and I have revegged her, cloned her, flowered her a second time and she is about 4 weeks from her second harvest, this time I have deliberately given her light, water, nute, high temperature and rootbinding stress and she has not popped a single nanner. I am happy with that and am keeping a cut of her as a mother becuase she is truly exceptional in the quality and nature of her high. If she had thrown nanners under stress on this second run I would have discarded her after this second harvest and looked for a replacement zamal pheno from other zamal hybrid seeds I have.

Here's some bad pics of the 3 little balls she threw when she showed preflowers:

And here is how she turned out, 5 months later, the best sativa I have grown so far, truly memorable smoke, folks who sampled her still ask me if I'm going to grow some more.

You see, this is the problem with hard and fast rules like 'a hermi is a hermi is a hermi' there can sometimes be exceptions. Both the Colombian and the Zamal technically are hermies as they at some point in their life had bollocks, but for 90% of their lives have exhibited nothing but true female traits. Now, if equally exceptional individuals of the same strain can be found that never showed one single ball at any time in their lifespan, it would be best to discard the ones that did have one or two balls early on and use the ones without bollocks for breeding, but that is an ideal situation and in some cases, the only female of exceptional quality you have to work with is the one that had a couple of balls once and one time only. Now, if you are sure that you want to preserve the genes of this exceptional plant, I say it is fine to do so but always remember those balls were there and keep a close eye out for any appearing in subsequent generations. This brings us back to zamalito's point about breeding practices in order to remove intersex traits from IBLs. I would love to know more about the possibility and techniques used to achieve the elimination of intersex traits. Sam, can you share any knowledge and experience you have of breeding with the goal of eliminating intersex traits?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

If you have males and females of the variety just make lots of seeds and grow them out and try and find a female with no intersex problems. That is what I did with my Durban Poison S African. When I got it it was all screwed up hermi and other problems as well like small bracts . I grew out a few hundred, and selected the best of them to grow out another seed batch, grew them out and selected the best. After 5 years of selection I had a pretty good line with much much less hermi problems. But I did not eliminate all the intersexed traits as I did not eliminate all that had any hermi progeny (the work was done more then 20 years ago). I would now if I did the work today. But be sure of your males before you blame the females for being the source of the intersexed progeny. Test by progeny testing via stress. The ultimate test for a female clone maybe to STS self it, then any intersexed progeny are for sure from the selfed clone.

-SamS

 

[DocLeaf]

But be sure of your males before you blame the females for being the source of the intersexed progeny.

-SamS

Great info. male selection is just as important as female selection.

 

[Farmer John]

Now what the hell, this didnt have anything to do with you man...and about your precious elites, I dont need them, I think that my hazes and other vintage things I have in the fridge are much more interesting, but hell, thats just my opinion. have a great day.

~ ~ ~ ~
To be sure,an interesting thread,full of Utopian dreams and sci-fi pseudo-theories,well-spread, albeit,amongst the actual truth of the matter under discussion.
What fun. :smile:


On another note;FJ,where you're at, geographically,you have absolutely no f'ing 'elite' clones available to you,so the actual bottom line of your posts is:You're talking out of your ass,as is per usual,lately.
(Again,get some fiber in your diet!)
I have an idea: Why don't you shut your f*cking trap and learn something,instead of wasting bandwidth and spouting half-assed rhetoric,wasting the time of those of us with a Clue.
You're clearly a tool,and it shows.

Now,back to The Discussion.

 

[Farmer John]

Thats exactly my thoughts bro, and thats how it works im 99% sure because almost everything I've bought has somekind of freaks and hermies in there and if the breeding was done by selecting only true females and males then there shouldnt be any transvestite plants in there, just males and females and thats not what I have seen, good examples would be Dutch Passion, GHS and Sensi, mostly bullshit genes and I think that its because of their shit breeding methods and shitty parental stock. Have a great day. Oh yeah, and this makes me think of all these hermie bagseed elite thingies going around these days, they CANT be very good for breeding if you think about it this way, it is hermie breeding.

Is this the post you got so upset about Rez? Did it have a mention of you anywhere? Thought so. Look man, you are doing a good job for some part no doubt but damn you start to sound like Arjan so think its time for both of us to take our heads off our asses and stop this nonsense, it is clear now that I dont k now shit and am nothing compared to you and im very happy with that, I stop the shitstorm here and really hope you do the same thing, if my comments sound like utopistic dreams or make you so angry then maybe I just dont know shit about anything and should keep my mouth shut, but no need for trolling and flaming, no comment of mine was pointed to you.

 

[filimagno]

i agree with you FJ....cause :
- rez shown a forced supremacy..( probably cause is from USA)and they have to done it
- cause he works just like arijan with lucky strike S1 plants crossed with some other S1 elite clones.

stop on discussion on S1 hermies or fake plants...and came back to produce only F1 just like a breeder MUST to do.

@samtheskunkman....you rock man when you talk about to kill immediately the selfed and the intersexed plants even if the flavour is interestant to cross with some other strain to attempt for a backcross.

imho:"feminized seeds are for feminized people!!!!just like the ciccimans"

why the nature cross the difference to obtain the best???
why when you cross a son with his mother sprout some crazy dudes???

BIG UP FOR THE PIONEER OF THE F1!!!

 

[filimagno]

@REZ ...may you talk just like you eat!!! or probably the testosterone and other hormones contained by the law in the USA's meat combining you in this crazy point of views....relax yourself you are NO ONE!!!

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

What makes plants reversed by silver poiosning any different from plants that will reverse due to other extreme stresses? The only TRUE males and TRUE females would be the ones not reversable by any method.

Sam, If there is any real difference in silver stress and light stress or heat stress... please point it out... On the level of the processes that actually trigger hormone production. I have repeatedly been ignored when asking this question... All you do is repeat the same rhetoric over and over... through the course of the thread your opinions have been more than clear, but I don't really want to discuss opinion, I want to discuss science... You are excellent at articulating your opinions, and anecdotal experiences, but seem to skip over some of these other questions...

Of course it is the policy of almost breeder to select away from hermies, but in all reality there is no reason why every different manifestation of intersexuality must be stamped out with such religious zeal...

That's almost what this argument reminds me of... an anti hermi religion... The same sort of intolerence that beleives there are only blacks and whites with no grey between... That only the path you believe in could possibly lead to perfection... That any disagreement is simply heresy...

The only hard and fast rule in the world that I've ever seen to hold true with any consistancy is this... "For every rule there is an exception"... To maintain that 100% of all reversable plants should be stricken from the gene pool, with no exceptions, seems a bit like a religious statement...

You readily admit, Sam, that lines which are all screwed up and hermi can be worked and improved... You have done so yourself... Isn't this the work of a breeder?? Keeping the best while eliminating the worst??

Why is your work eliminating negative traits from the SA Durban Poison a valid breeding project, but No one else should ever try to work the reversal sensitivities out of an elite line? You say no reversable plants should ever be bred with... I say bullshit...

Working within a superior genepool to eliminate the negatives and increase frequency of the manifestation of the positives is the path I will continue to take with my work... If you guys want to work within a reversal free genepool and search for superior plants, then more power to you, I say... I'd love to test grow some reversal proof seed when you get there...