Oh brother, didnt GHS claim to have 100% hermaphrodite free strains coming to market soon? 
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Farmer John said:Oh brother, didnt GHS claim to have 100% hermaphrodite free strains coming to market soon?
To be fair to Franco. we haven't seen one male flower in any of his fem. lines as yet
(we wouldn't ever use them for breeding,, but that's another matter). 
edit: the only fem. lines with several phenos in the same packet!! (how does he do that???)
perhaps him be smarter than ppl be giving credit for :wink:
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Have you tried light leaks or heat stress on them? How about flowering them Extra long?DocLeaf said:To be fair to Franco. we haven't seen one male flower in any of his fem. lines as yet
edit: the only fem. lines with several phenos in the same packet!! (how does he do that???)
D
Dalaihempy
hi all you know stressing a plant to what it would get in a natreal inviroments like heat stress and even water stress basicly the plant wilting becouse it was not give water in time and even pests and storm damage is one thing but light leeks is not a natreal thing a plant will deal with in its normal life or something it evolved for light leeks are not natreal and if an indoor growers going to do them right mimicing out door conditions is what one needs to do to the best of there budget and ability in short if you cant sort out light leeks before you grow then dont wine and blame the genetics if in time they do hermi.
As for fem seeds i wouldnt tuch them if i got a life supplie of free seeds GM cannabis i call them.
Do you guys ever ask why the more reputuble breeders in the industrial steer clear of makeing fem seed ?.
As for fem seeds i wouldnt tuch them if i got a life supplie of free seeds GM cannabis i call them.
Do you guys ever ask why the more reputuble breeders in the industrial steer clear of makeing fem seed ?.
It is one thing to try and clean up a variety to remove all the intersexed genes and quite another to just use it as a hermi to breed new hybrids.
As for your question about the difference between STS and light or heat stress, I do not have scientific proof like you want. I do listen to my inner voice and I usually end up right, but I do admit when I am wrong sometimes.
Logic tells me that there is a difference between environmental stress and STS, one can happen in nature the other never does. And today with under lights growing photo disorders are a natural environmental stress that will happen to every clone.
Opinion or unproved theories are what all science came from, and when you are on the cutting edge opinion may be all you have to go on.
I had no proof that terpenoids contributed to the subjective high, everyone said I was nuts, but I knew they did, so I proved it. It took me 20 years to do so as I needed pure THC, CBD, CBC, CBG, THCV, as well as some of the 135+ Terpenoids and a vaporizor to do the work. Science is not cheap or fast.
To be honest I do not care enough to prove that STS is different from stress, I feel I am right and until someone proves me wrong I will think this way.
If a plant can change sex with any environmental stress I think it has genes for intersex, STS is different, it never happens in nature. STS being able to transform a female to male does not mean that the plant is carrying intersex genes, as far as I can tell. Environmental stress reveals plants with intersex genes. And I advise people not to use them if they want to breed better Cannabis hermi free.
If you think I am wrong then continue to breed with hermi intersexed plants.
But do not be suprised if your varieties have intersexed plants in their progeny.
If you are sure a female plant has no intersexed traits even with every type of environmental stress, use STS and make hermi free lines. But be sure both parents are hermi free under stress.
Maybe it is time to make a list of known clones that are TRUE FEMALES? Clones that have been around long enough to have been tested with every type of environmental stress and been proven to be hermi free? Or at least come up with a list of stresses that will bring out hermis, so people at home can test their own clones to see if they have a TRUE FEMALE or TRUE MALE. Then you could make a few lines that are TRUE and grow out a bunch and try and find intersexed plants in the progeny. Fast easy and almost science. But it will not show STS is different from stress, which is what you want.
-SamS
As for your question about the difference between STS and light or heat stress, I do not have scientific proof like you want. I do listen to my inner voice and I usually end up right, but I do admit when I am wrong sometimes.
Logic tells me that there is a difference between environmental stress and STS, one can happen in nature the other never does. And today with under lights growing photo disorders are a natural environmental stress that will happen to every clone.
Opinion or unproved theories are what all science came from, and when you are on the cutting edge opinion may be all you have to go on.
I had no proof that terpenoids contributed to the subjective high, everyone said I was nuts, but I knew they did, so I proved it. It took me 20 years to do so as I needed pure THC, CBD, CBC, CBG, THCV, as well as some of the 135+ Terpenoids and a vaporizor to do the work. Science is not cheap or fast.
To be honest I do not care enough to prove that STS is different from stress, I feel I am right and until someone proves me wrong I will think this way.
If a plant can change sex with any environmental stress I think it has genes for intersex, STS is different, it never happens in nature. STS being able to transform a female to male does not mean that the plant is carrying intersex genes, as far as I can tell. Environmental stress reveals plants with intersex genes. And I advise people not to use them if they want to breed better Cannabis hermi free.
If you think I am wrong then continue to breed with hermi intersexed plants.
But do not be suprised if your varieties have intersexed plants in their progeny.
If you are sure a female plant has no intersexed traits even with every type of environmental stress, use STS and make hermi free lines. But be sure both parents are hermi free under stress.
Maybe it is time to make a list of known clones that are TRUE FEMALES? Clones that have been around long enough to have been tested with every type of environmental stress and been proven to be hermi free? Or at least come up with a list of stresses that will bring out hermis, so people at home can test their own clones to see if they have a TRUE FEMALE or TRUE MALE. Then you could make a few lines that are TRUE and grow out a bunch and try and find intersexed plants in the progeny. Fast easy and almost science. But it will not show STS is different from stress, which is what you want.
-SamS
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Excellent, so we really do agree, then... I'm not talking about using inter-sexed individuals for 1st generation crosses, but as a starting point for a project... And I am definately not talking about making 'feminised' seeds or any seeds using pollen from a stress reversal, just classic male/female crossing... I simply could not and cannot accept the statement that 100% of all inter-sexed plants are valueless in a breeding project.Sam_Skunkman said:
The main reason I differ here, is that ionic silver(which does exist in nature, and it is not unfeasible that a group of plants could be grown in an area with high natural silver deposits), has the exact same effect as silver thiosulfate (and it's not even poison). If you're going to call un-natural light cycles a natural environmental stress, then you have to call silver stress one as well.
But it isn't science until it is proven, and my opinion or theory that the 'biological mechanics' of the various stress induced reversals are not very different is as valid as any other unproven but plausable theory. What ever the source of the stress, it is really the processes it induces that count, not the stress source.
And I have a lot of respect for you for the work you've done, and the opinions you have... In fact I actually differ very little from you opinion wise, just one minor point which is really a small part of a greater whole... I agree science is not fast, and rarely is it cheap... even if the cost is not in money it is in work...
Silver stress could very well indeed happen in nature. If the plant was not carrying a gene which allowed it to produce sex reversing hormones, how could STS work? Also, when you get to the reality of the situation... Even if you cannot stress a plant into reversing, there is still a possibility of it passing along a recessive gene and having inter-sexed progeny... Bottom line is, with out proof of the mechanisms which cause reversals and without a laboratory to test the genes of every plant to make sure they have no recessive traits and without facilities to grow out populations of hundreds of thousands, then breeding reversal proof (idiot proof) cannabis is a utopian pipe dream at best...
I will, and I will continue to select away from undesirable traits in their progeny. And I will not be suprised to watch the trait become less frequent with each generation...
Sounds like a good idea... a list should be compiled, and stress tested to verify... However, inter-sexed plants in their progeny would only indicate the presence of recessive genes for stress related hormone production... Be a fun project, though...
a "TRUE" male/female list would be so vital to the community, you dont even know.
someone please start that thread immediately!
a list of stresses would be cool too
someone please start that thread immediately!
a list of stresses would be cool too
Photoperiod disorders.
Phoperiod shock from 20 hours light to 10.
Lumins disorders, too high or too low of lumins.
Too Hot or Cold.
Too Wet or Dry, air or soil.
Nutrients out of wack, to much or to little.
Pruning shock, plant or roots.
Transplant shock.
Insect shock.
Disease shock.
-SamS
Phoperiod shock from 20 hours light to 10.
Lumins disorders, too high or too low of lumins.
Too Hot or Cold.
Too Wet or Dry, air or soil.
Nutrients out of wack, to much or to little.
Pruning shock, plant or roots.
Transplant shock.
Insect shock.
Disease shock.
-SamS
G
guest123
Grat3fulh3ad said:
wow u always write so much gratefulhad ,, hehe ,, i guess it means u have a lot of questions and an urge to have them answered .....
i guess thats the beauty of these forums, exchange of ideas , theories and results of tests youve conducted or have formulated ideas about through theory ...
im trying to learn as i read along and keep my mind open ,, ive honestly seen no reason so far to change my stand on the hermie debate ...
as im sure we have all learnt in this tread there is no degree of hermaphradism , is a intersexed plant or its not ...
many would also need to take into account the male , how many grow the stud and test him as much as they would the female?/ many males ive seen will show intersexing late in flower , where most folks would have tossed him long ago given he has done his job ..
i refer to gratefulhads statement of who will bother testing 250 000 plants in order to make a good strain , well i think thats what its gonna take to do the deed successfully , after all it did take a lot of individual plants of lettuce , broccolli , eggplant , what u will to come up with something man can use ..
after all thats what its all about ,, we have had enough influence on cannabis to have what we have now ,,
we changed it to suit our needs , yet have not finished with that from what i see ,,
all we have to do is finish the job really ,, we have everything we need , the main thing holding us back is legality ...
the "elite" strains can be replaced with something better ...
its just a plant after all ....
Actually quite the opposite...wallyduck said:
We have learned that there are varying degrees of intersexuality...
We have learned that what makes some stresses different is whether they are found in nature or not...
We learned that we have no Idea what biological mechanisms are responsible for the varying types and degrees... We have learned that Silver stress is no different from any other stress, or maybe it might be...
We have learned that your statements above are based solely on opinions and unproved theories...
We have learned that Sam doesn't really think all inter-sexed plants are completely worthless to breed with, if you are working the trait out of the line...
We have learned that statisticly speaking, TRUE males and TRUE females that cannot be reversed by any stresses are very rare... On the order of one in 250000 to one in a million... That's like winning the lottery each time you find one... (wonder the odds on consecutive lottery wins...)
We've learned that no breeder out there Torture tests their parent stock properly...
We've learned that the term inter-sexed covers several reproductive schemes, of which one is hermaphrodite...
Anyone who thinks there are no degrees of intersexuality hasn't learnt anything in this thread, except how to stick to faith even in the face of fact...
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The questions I had were intended to illustrate a point, and help clarify things for any of us out here who may have thought there were clear cut answers... I do have alot of questions, which would all need to be answered to come to any conclusions about the theories presented here... After all without evidences they're just theories and any conclusions are jumped to, not drawn... In order to assert something as a fact, don't you think all the basic questions about said fact should be answerable?wallyduck said:
Of course I have lots of questions, questions are what keep us from being blindly led by other's opinions... Questions can turn ideas into truths, and questions can show the lack of logic in a line of thinking... And of course I write alot, because I've got alot of relevant facts and opinions floating around my head...
"We learned that we have no Idea what biological mechanisms are responsible for the varying types and degrees... We have learned that Silver stress is no different from any other stress, or maybe it might be..."
I do not believe this about STS. If you STS a TRUE FEMALE you do not get any intersexed progeny, I know because I did it.
"We have learned that statisticly speaking, TRUE males and TRUE females that cannot be reversed by any stresses are very rare... On the order of one in 250000 to one in a million... That's like winning the lottery each time you find one... (wonder the odds on consecutive lottery wins...)"
Well I do not feel this is true. It is more like 1 in 1-10,000.
"Anyone who thinks there are no degrees of intersexuality hasn't learnt anything in this thread, except how to stick to faith even in the face of fact..."
The question to be asked is can the intersexuality be inherited? If yes then do not breed with it unless you clean it up first and make it TRUE. That is what I think is best.
-SamS
I do not believe this about STS. If you STS a TRUE FEMALE you do not get any intersexed progeny, I know because I did it.
"We have learned that statisticly speaking, TRUE males and TRUE females that cannot be reversed by any stresses are very rare... On the order of one in 250000 to one in a million... That's like winning the lottery each time you find one... (wonder the odds on consecutive lottery wins...)"
Well I do not feel this is true. It is more like 1 in 1-10,000.
"Anyone who thinks there are no degrees of intersexuality hasn't learnt anything in this thread, except how to stick to faith even in the face of fact..."
The question to be asked is can the intersexuality be inherited? If yes then do not breed with it unless you clean it up first and make it TRUE. That is what I think is best.
-SamS
Yes an we all know how easy it is to grow out 10K plants err...perhaps 20k
to cull the males, then watch over em to get the one female when there would
1000's of almost true females?
I also wish i could have seen the results of the few people who claim to have grown out and made selections from 1000's of plants.I have had more hermi's from those people who have shown greenhouses full of the same strain and those that have claimed to, than i have from the closet hackers who pay attention to fewer Numbers of plants.
That is like showing a picture of a perfect colon and saying
This is what your colon should look like...read,no one has one.
This hermi thing is so macro and elitist its hilarious.
Except for using obvious hermed plants to "breed" with
almost every herm will come from stress the list Sam just posted.
If a true female is so rare..and IF anyone ever thought they found one
and IF the others can be herm'd or at least forced to make male sac...then yah just ain't tried hard enough on the true[elitist] female.
And much science is full of it...ie. wrong.
to cull the males, then watch over em to get the one female when there would
1000's of almost true females?
I also wish i could have seen the results of the few people who claim to have grown out and made selections from 1000's of plants.I have had more hermi's from those people who have shown greenhouses full of the same strain and those that have claimed to, than i have from the closet hackers who pay attention to fewer Numbers of plants.
That is like showing a picture of a perfect colon and saying
This is what your colon should look like...read,no one has one.
This hermi thing is so macro and elitist its hilarious.
Except for using obvious hermed plants to "breed" with
almost every herm will come from stress the list Sam just posted.
If a true female is so rare..and IF anyone ever thought they found one
and IF the others can be herm'd or at least forced to make male sac...then yah just ain't tried hard enough on the true[elitist] female.
And much science is full of it...ie. wrong.
I'd have to know that experiment was repeated quite a few times, and that a representative selection of the the progeny were properly stress tested for any small sign of a male sex organ, before that means anything significant. Just because something works a certain way once or twice does not make it a rule.Sam_Skunkman said:
Answer me this... Ionic silver has the same effect... how is the excessive presence of a metal anything other than another form of stress?
Unless you can show some difference, or some evidence of a difference other than 'existing in nature' (since light leaks don't exist in nature, and neither do 90 straight days of 95+ degree temperatures), then I have to continue to believe there isn't much difference.
Also, like I have tried to make clear... I'm not talking about using any type of reversed pollen... ever... STS or otherwise...
You're right... a 'true male' or a 'true female' would be more like 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10,000... I mis-communicated what I meant... I meant a 'true male' and a 'true female' that are of 'elite' or 'keeper' quailty.
Feelings aside, If the probability of 'true' = 1:1000
and if the probability of 'keeper' = 1:1000
then the MATH places the odds of finding a 'true keeper' cannot possibly be any less than 1:1000000.
So let me revise my 'what we've learned' statement...
We have learned that statisticly speaking, TRUE males and TRUE females that cannot be reversed by any stresses are very rare... On the order of one in one thousand... and Elite quality plants are fairly rare as well... on the order of one in one hundred to one in one thousand...
Therefore finding an Elite quality true female is one in ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND to one in A MILLION... That's like winning the lottery each time you find one... (wonder the odds on consecutive lottery wins...) then you have to check for recessive genes...
I'm glad that you've revised your position to allow for the exceptional plant to be worked into a seedline.
Of course it is inherited. I've NEVER argued that. I have only said that just like every other inherited trait it can be removed from a line, without discarding the entire line. And by the same token I've never argued that it should not be removed from the genepool, just that the best has to be saved along side with culling the worst. That's what I think is best.
Now that you agree with me on that point, the other stuff is just academia and best left as hypothesis until some experimentation can be done.
Seems like the same concepts and Ideas rolled thru the same grider over n over..
Start growing for the next 20-30yrs..Take major notes and keep info on all varieties,strain forms and parent lines..Make your own conclusions and then argue with facts..Or at least see how all these theories work by actually Testing them...Even a closet King can do the right thing, but you still have to be pro to get ppl to listen..Why bother when you can draw your own conclusions..But this does take allot of time and with every change of enviro, strain, ecology will come more diverse offspring as they aclimatize..How would I know...Well I grew a bunch of strains for bout 15-20 yrs..Sent some over the pond to UK..they were grown out..Sent some to Aussie..they were grown out..no hermies..no weird traits..nothing outa the ordinary..
So then I bred out a Bubba x Bubba/OGkush said to be rev'd OG used..I never saw a hermi yet heard from 1 other of a hermi showing..It wasnt my work but Im not gana say its a worthless hybrid and toss all the beans I made either..
life is ever changing..Be water as Bruce Lee would say..Just flow..
FOE20
Start growing for the next 20-30yrs..Take major notes and keep info on all varieties,strain forms and parent lines..Make your own conclusions and then argue with facts..Or at least see how all these theories work by actually Testing them...Even a closet King can do the right thing, but you still have to be pro to get ppl to listen..Why bother when you can draw your own conclusions..But this does take allot of time and with every change of enviro, strain, ecology will come more diverse offspring as they aclimatize..How would I know...Well I grew a bunch of strains for bout 15-20 yrs..Sent some over the pond to UK..they were grown out..Sent some to Aussie..they were grown out..no hermies..no weird traits..nothing outa the ordinary..
So then I bred out a Bubba x Bubba/OGkush said to be rev'd OG used..I never saw a hermi yet heard from 1 other of a hermi showing..It wasnt my work but Im not gana say its a worthless hybrid and toss all the beans I made either..
life is ever changing..Be water as Bruce Lee would say..Just flow..
FOE20
elRoachoGrande
Member
can anyone show a fem cannabis plant that will not reverse by STS?
the all will won't they.. each and every one of them, right?
[edit: sorry.. missed that]
the all will won't they.. each and every one of them, right?
[edit: sorry.. missed that]
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elRoachoGrande said:
Sam_Skunkman said:
hola vato Roach
The NL#5-7yrs old and the FOEBerry-11yrs old I keep, both wont fully reverse...Ive tried allot of things on both just so I can make S.1 or Fem beans..or anything..
All I get are late nannas..I tried the pre-made Cl-one shit on both and still only got a few spots of nannas which I dont consider a true reversal..Even tho I could make fem beans from those I guess..I'd like someone to win the argument tho and tell a way to completely revert a hard knock Female..
FOE20
The NL#5-7yrs old and the FOEBerry-11yrs old I keep, both wont fully reverse...Ive tried allot of things on both just so I can make S.1 or Fem beans..or anything..
All I get are late nannas..I tried the pre-made Cl-one shit on both and still only got a few spots of nannas which I dont consider a true reversal..Even tho I could make fem beans from those I guess..I'd like someone to win the argument tho and tell a way to completely revert a hard knock Female..
FOE20
Grat3fulh3ad said:
G
Guest
Good advice on STS to be sure of females, Sam. Can the same STS technque be used to reverse males?
