No not with STS, but there are other ways.
-SamS
-SamS
-
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And just what would be considered proper torture testing?
Those only found in nature, or tests driven by extremes to simulate horrendous conditions found in nature (extreme dry heat/ drought for example)?
Damn I tourture my stock so bad i apologize to them constantly...
My kinda thing I try to avoid at all cost, Is actually torturing them WHILE I am making seed on them... Not a good Idea.
My G-13 male was from stress and reverting it to veg from flower...
It has made quite a few seeds on itself...
Those only found in nature, or tests driven by extremes to simulate horrendous conditions found in nature (extreme dry heat/ drought for example)?
Damn I tourture my stock so bad i apologize to them constantly...
My kinda thing I try to avoid at all cost, Is actually torturing them WHILE I am making seed on them... Not a good Idea.
My G-13 male was from stress and reverting it to veg from flower...
It has made quite a few seeds on itself...
Grat3fulh3ad said:
tiedye420 said:And just what would be considered proper torture testing?
Those only found in nature, or tests driven by extremes to simulate horrendous conditions found in nature (extreme dry heat/ drought for example)?
Damn I tourture my stock so bad i apologize to them constantly...
My kinda thing I try to avoid at all cost, Is actually torturing them WHILE I am making seed on them... Not a good Idea.
My G-13 male was from stress and reverting it to veg from flower...
It has made quite a few seeds on itself...
In addition, I'd include silver stress... It doesn't have to be STS, since that has magic properties and creates special stress different from all other stresses, just plain old ionic silver suspended in solution added to the nutes.Sam_Skunkman said:
To really be a proven 'true', every possible effort to reverse the plant would have to be made... Then the plant would need to be test bred and a large enough of selection of the progeny to be representative of the gene pool thus created have to be put through the exact same rigors. If one banana can be made to appear then the original parents weren't really 'true' after all, but carried the trait recessively.
My own work showed me that if you can not stress a female to change sex with enviornmental stress then after STS it will not express intersexed plants, altho to be sure maybe progeny testing is required like STS for selfing females, males are more work. As far as I know STS, ionic silver, even Gibberellic acid are not the same as environmental stresses. I am curious Grat3fulh3ad, have you done any work that counters this or are you just spouting off your opinions? I know you feel that STS is just the same as stress, do you have any work to back this up or is it just your opinion? Have you ever used STS? Have you ever worked with any plants you felt were TRUE? Where does your opinion come from? My opinions come from my observations and work.
Grat3fulh3ad,
"In addition, I'd include silver stress... It doesn't have to be STS, since that has magic properties and creates special stress different from all other stresses, just plain old ionic silver suspended in solution added to the nutes."
-SamS
Grat3fulh3ad,
"In addition, I'd include silver stress... It doesn't have to be STS, since that has magic properties and creates special stress different from all other stresses, just plain old ionic silver suspended in solution added to the nutes."
-SamS
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guest123
well i spent today checking the jungle patch ,, the one i mentioned i had several female tropical sativas growing ...
admitadly , they did not have every stress thrown at them , but definately as much as ive seen many plants turn intersexed with ..
and in particular apart from very short days , lack of water , too much water , etc etc ..
they survived several nights where temperatures were well below zero , and many even established varietys of plants( not cannabis) were absolutely killed stone dead .. now thats one tought plant i think ... ill pop a couple of pix up once i get them loaded ...
admitadly , they did not have every stress thrown at them , but definately as much as ive seen many plants turn intersexed with ..
and in particular apart from very short days , lack of water , too much water , etc etc ..
they survived several nights where temperatures were well below zero , and many even established varietys of plants( not cannabis) were absolutely killed stone dead .. now thats one tought plant i think ... ill pop a couple of pix up once i get them loaded ...
G
guest123
my apologies about the bad quality of pix , but just the phone ,,, im pretty impressed with the durability of this strain.. and still growing along happily at 11 and a half hours of daylight , and temperatures as low as minus 7 celcius , possibly even less ... a fun test ,, and ill definately use the strain for a later grow given their ability to resist mould and intersexing .....
youll notice on the first pic even the chikweed behind the plant has been well burnt with frost .....
youll notice on the first pic even the chikweed behind the plant has been well burnt with frost .....
Just curious exactly how your work has shown this, and how many times the experiment was repeated and with what kind of numbers.Sam_Skunkman said:
I absolutely agree that using Gibberillins is not the same as an environmental stress, neither would the application of any plant hormone. I've tried to state that several times! The application of plant hormones is the only reversal method that is not a stress. STS is a poison which causes stress, not a plant hormone which naturally directs growth. Do you not understand that almost every single biological process is governed by the production of hormones? If you have applied a substance or an environment to a plant which is not part of it's normal environment in order to change the plants behavior, then you have caused a reaction to stress.
If the presence of excess silver in the environment is not a stress to the plant, then what causes the increased hormone production?
No Sam, I don't have any experimental data to refute your theory... I have worked with gibberillic acid, and will be doing some more work with the ionic silver... I have access to STS, and have in the past as well, but I have networked with enough people who have worked with it, and see no need to use this poison when ionic silver has every indication of working exactly as well. It's been a long time, however, because I have long been of the opinion that 'fem'd' seeds are not worth making. This discussion has inspired me to pick back up with some of it though, Now that I have a specific purpose for doing it again... though it'll be a long time before anything can be proven, given the nature of the experiments.
My opinions are never just opinions, but are always the result of education and application.
I definately think that the work needs to be undertaken by Botanist, to do some specific experimentation in the lab to determine the biological mechanisms which cause reversals. Until that happens, nobodies work in the area has conclusively proven anything, and It's all theories based on experience, education and observation. I would really like to get the chance to sit and talk this out, someday... It's harder to correspond in writing than to have a one on one discussion, where it's easier to bounce ideas and concepts back and forth.
G
guest123
Grat3fulh3ad said:
hey gratefulhad , i agree more work needs to be taken without doubt , but some folks have seen a lot of plants and studied a lot over many years ,, have to give them credit for the things they have noticed along the way ,,
after all as u said yourself theories based on experience , education and observation ....
arent they what forms the conclusions of most studies???
Looking good in the patch wally... very hardy plant, indeed... I like the mold resistance issue. Mold can devistate a bud quickly, the bastard fungi...wallyduck said:
Also... any of the stresses you mentioned... slight and naturally occurring... would for sure show up any plants that need to be eliminated from the genepool... any plant that goes sexually haywire in any naturally occurring stressful conditions is a cull.
I'd love an opportunity to give them the old 'unatural stress' test when you get the beans done...
Also when I talk about plants reversing under extreme stresses, I do mean the un-natural ones...
Short light cycles... low temps... high temps for a short time period...
Thirst... Overwatering... These are all quite natural, and I would hardly even consider them stresses, much less extreme stresses...
Light leaking in constantly during 'plant night'... 55 days of 100f degree temperatures... poisoning... These are extreme stresses, and if they induce a late flower banana it don't mean much... If they induce a full blown inter-sexed plant, cull it...
Indeed more work needs to be undertaken, especially in the area of the mechanisms which cause the different manifestations of inter-sexuality... A lot would be gained that could even potentially have broader applications....wallyduck said:
Of course I have a lot of respect for Sam, and give credit where credit is due... Sam was a pioneer in the field, and has a wealth of practical information, and is one of the most experienced growers in the world... While I was growing my first outdoor crop, Sam was winning the first cannabis cup...
Even though that be the case, I do have years of experience and education and observation... and though not nearly the years some others have, It's not as though I lack the ability to use the knowledge and experiences and work of others to build on, as well... it's not as though each new learner starts from scratch, only able to gain from their own experiences...
Like I've said over and over, I agree with almost everything Sam has to say... Just a couple of things with which I take exception, here they are...
1. 100% of all plants that can be made to show any degree of inter-sexuality at all Must never be used in any breeding program.
2. There is something special about poisoning a plant with STS that is different from any other stress, and poisoning a plant with STS is no different than using a plant hormone like giberillic acid.
To which my responses are...
1. No worries here... Sam further explained his position to allow for using them in a breeding program to improve a line, just never ever to simply make crosses. Once he clarified, I find that our positions on that issue really don't differ much at all.
2. Here is where I get into discussing the last line of your post...
"theories based on experience , education and observation.... arent they what forms the conclusions of most studies???"
"Theories" being the key word... and in the absence of proof, theories are all we have... Proof, Evidence, Documented Experimentation and the like are what form the conclusions of studies... Experience, education, and observation often cause us to ask the questions and form the theories, but lacking the proof, evidence, and specific experimentation, Not much of a conclusion can be formed... Also, In that line of thought... Isn't any explanation which takes all of the available facts into account and logically explains an outcome, as valid a theory as any other explanation which meets the same criteria? In every arena of scientific study where new ground is being broken, there are always equally valid theories which differ... I'm not looking to change what any of you believe, but I've seen no reason to modify what I think either.
Yes more research is needed, this can't be resolved otherwise... Doesn't matter to me who is wrong or right, or if everyone is some combination of the two, as long as we continue to try to find out for sure.
I'm in it for the experimentation, and knowledge which surely ensues from invesigating "the unknown" or rather "less often tread" path...
Yes gra8- all those stresses and more are likely to occur in my "trailer grow"..
It is just too exposed to the elements even inside.. My rootballs practically freeze from the cold floor in winter. It's always something.
I have a few things coming around from this reversed G male..
If anyone wants to test the DJ short theory..
Likely test subject would be sourdxstinkyXreversed G male..
Simply because stinky was saved from hermie stock and can carry hidden if not bred right.. Sour Diesel Has tendecies to multi-sex on us...
The sourXstinkies (smelled more like a stinky diesel though- L.O.L.) had a couple not pass my milder stress testing this spring....
So theoretically the reversed male should fix this trait and bring %70 to %90 females.
I have not tested offspring of this male yet, but the theory has proven sound to me.
This is the second reversed male I have used...The theory is sound.
Just not sure about this subject yet.
tie
tie
Yes gra8- all those stresses and more are likely to occur in my "trailer grow"..
It is just too exposed to the elements even inside.. My rootballs practically freeze from the cold floor in winter. It's always something.
I have a few things coming around from this reversed G male..
If anyone wants to test the DJ short theory..
Likely test subject would be sourdxstinkyXreversed G male..
Simply because stinky was saved from hermie stock and can carry hidden if not bred right.. Sour Diesel Has tendecies to multi-sex on us...
The sourXstinkies (smelled more like a stinky diesel though- L.O.L.) had a couple not pass my milder stress testing this spring....
So theoretically the reversed male should fix this trait and bring %70 to %90 females.
I have not tested offspring of this male yet, but the theory has proven sound to me.
This is the second reversed male I have used...The theory is sound.
Just not sure about this subject yet.
tie
tie
tyrp annoyed
New member
Chemical Stress:
A big dose of Superbud (paclobutrazol) will show potential hermies.
A big dose of Superbud (paclobutrazol) will show potential hermies.
G
Guest
Hello all, I'm sorry I didn't go trough the thread before posting, but I want to ask a question.
I think I might be having a hermie plant. I'm growing it on sunlight. I've topped the plant, so now it has two tops. Today I spotted 2 balls near the base of the stems near the tops. Took one off, and squished it with my fingers, I expected some white pollen to come out or white liquid. But instead there were some greed things inside (like young leaves or something).
Can you tell me if these are pollen sacks or something else. The plant is in late vegging, has a lot of pistils (hairs) around the tops (about 7-10 hairs for each top).
P.S.
To simplify the question... Is there anything else that can resemble a pollen sack... Because these things look exactly as pollen sacks...
And what should there be inside a pollen sack?
P.S. 2 - I'll try to provide pics soon... Tried to take some pics with my phone (VGA) but the clarity is terrible.
I think I might be having a hermie plant. I'm growing it on sunlight. I've topped the plant, so now it has two tops. Today I spotted 2 balls near the base of the stems near the tops. Took one off, and squished it with my fingers, I expected some white pollen to come out or white liquid. But instead there were some greed things inside (like young leaves or something).
Can you tell me if these are pollen sacks or something else. The plant is in late vegging, has a lot of pistils (hairs) around the tops (about 7-10 hairs for each top).
P.S.
To simplify the question... Is there anything else that can resemble a pollen sack... Because these things look exactly as pollen sacks...
And what should there be inside a pollen sack?
P.S. 2 - I'll try to provide pics soon... Tried to take some pics with my phone (VGA) but the clarity is terrible.
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sound like the "young leaves or something" may be the forming bananas inside the unopened male flower... A pic or two sure would help...r_Blunt said:
G
Guest
If only I knew how pollen tastes 
heheh.
No matter I'll remove that damn ball and hope that more won't show up.
heheh.No matter I'll remove that damn ball and hope that more won't show up.
G
Guest
Give the flower a bit of time to fully develop to the point where identification is easy. You have a bit of time between when the flowers first start developing until viable pollen is formed so you don't have to rush to judgement. Sometimes flower developement can be a bit unusual so it pays to make absolutely sure. I had a northernberry plant that when it started preflowering it had lil clusters so I was pretty sure it was male as I had never seen a female start flowering like that but I waited a few more days and it threw out tons of pistils from the clusters. It was 100% female and turned out very nicely. In 25 years of growing I have never seen another straight lady start flowering like that and I almost trashed her. Better to be safe than sorry, just give the plant a lil more time.
From the description is does sound like an immature male flower though. A few more days should tell the tale.
From the description is does sound like an immature male flower though. A few more days should tell the tale.
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I would have to agree with Sam on most points as well Grat3fulh3ad .
My work with hermies began as an experiement to make my own feminized seeds.
Must needs forced me to reclaim my strain from s1 and s2 generations of crosses made that were feminized.
feminized stock just means no males to carry on the strain with.
If your a breeder you should never use femnized seed for stock..
I would have lost my first X - I have been able to carry on a few years...
If it were not for my work with hermies...
But i have locked in a trait to bannana in the last 3 weeks, in one of the offspring (ditched BTW) And Also found a reversed male, to successfully remove the tendecy to hermie... I learned more from my experiements than any 10 books could have taught me. Simply because I learn best from doing.
I might not grow 1,000 plants at one time, but I do study the ones I grow extensively..
Personally, I feel a reversed male to be the most valuable tool in breeding.
It removes the tendecy to hermie almost entirely (hidden traits are always a concern here), and it increases the male /female ratio up to a 60 to 90% female.
If you use short days and low temps, low nitrogen you can swing the female ratio to get %90+...... And still have a male or two now and then worth breeding with....
That to me is the best we can do with cannabis, 90% female and reduced or hidden hermie traits...
She has been fixing herself for years, we just need to listen to her, she'll tell us all we need to know....
tie
My work with hermies began as an experiement to make my own feminized seeds.
Must needs forced me to reclaim my strain from s1 and s2 generations of crosses made that were feminized.
feminized stock just means no males to carry on the strain with.
If your a breeder you should never use femnized seed for stock..
I would have lost my first X - I have been able to carry on a few years...
If it were not for my work with hermies...
But i have locked in a trait to bannana in the last 3 weeks, in one of the offspring (ditched BTW) And Also found a reversed male, to successfully remove the tendecy to hermie... I learned more from my experiements than any 10 books could have taught me. Simply because I learn best from doing.
I might not grow 1,000 plants at one time, but I do study the ones I grow extensively..
Personally, I feel a reversed male to be the most valuable tool in breeding.
It removes the tendecy to hermie almost entirely (hidden traits are always a concern here), and it increases the male /female ratio up to a 60 to 90% female.
If you use short days and low temps, low nitrogen you can swing the female ratio to get %90+...... And still have a male or two now and then worth breeding with....
That to me is the best we can do with cannabis, 90% female and reduced or hidden hermie traits...
She has been fixing herself for years, we just need to listen to her, she'll tell us all we need to know....
tie
What is the peak of my interest at this present time..
Is the reversed g-13 male I have...
He is making his own s1 at the moment...
I am very curious to find out the S1 statistics under "extreme grow conditions".
Too many irons in the fire now, but hopefully before the years out I'll be able to pop a few of these...
tie
Is the reversed g-13 male I have...
He is making his own s1 at the moment...
I am very curious to find out the S1 statistics under "extreme grow conditions".
Too many irons in the fire now, but hopefully before the years out I'll be able to pop a few of these...
tie
