Miraculous Meds
Well-known member
badass! Now on the green lacewings, was that just a preventative. Do they live till all the bugs have been eaten and die off? and how was it having them flying around in the garden?
-
As of today ICMag has his own Discord server. In this Discord server you can chat, talk with eachother, listen to music, share stories and pictures...and much more. Join now and let's grow together! Join ICMag Discord here! More details in this thread here: here.
Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???
- Thread starter spleebale
- Start date
badass! Now on the green lacewings, was that just a preventative. Do they live till all the bugs have been eaten and die off? and how was it having them flying around in the garden?
While examining my juveniles (1/2 gallon containers) I observed one table (about 10 out of 20 plants) had Root Aphids...WTF? I checked every plant in the veg room and...phew, no RAs. It appears that somehow one of more plants picked up some RAs and were in the process of infesting/contaminating neighboring plants.
LOL, it has been a few years since I have seen the little shits so I decided I would tweek my recipe a bit; I did the "dirty deed" last Tuesday to plants in both tables and I am more than impressed with the results both immediately and at the 1 week mark.
Let me outline the changes--but first let me qualify my garden: I use a custom peat based growmix, veg and flour in two different rooms, perpetual harvest every 15 days or so, and since March I have been "reclaiming" my soil--and to prevent unwanted critters I spray the soil about 10 days prior to transplanting with Orthene/Riptide spray (same rates).
The changes:
1. Instead of dunking 100% of the container/rootball--only the bottom 1/3-1/2 of the container was immersed and drenched with 3 times the normal amount to achieve complete soil saturation including a slight 5-10% runoff. Example, if plant is saturated with 12 ounces--then slowly drench with 36 ounces (3x12) of RA cocktail.
2. Two ingredients were added to the cocktail:
-Water soluble fertilizer (Growmore Seagrow 16-16-16) to replace any fertility that is leached away during RA treatment.
-Diatomaceous Earth (PermaGuard Fossil Shell Flour) to utilize the symbiotic relationship that DE has with Pyrethrin...and perhaps buffer the pH (which seems to be a problem for some people). Not the chunky or gritty DE, you want finely ground...almost talcum powder-like.
Revised RA Cocktail (per gallon):
1 gram Sea Grow 16-16-16
2.29 grams Orthene (97% acephate)
2.25 ml Riptide (pyrethrin+pbo)
8 oz Fossil Shell Flour (volume ounces not weight)
Add the ingredients in the order listed to 50% of the amount of water required. After adding Fossil Shell Flour cover bucket immediately and wait about 3 minutes or so---this will prevent a mini DE dust storm from rolling out of the bucket...lol.
Stir well and add water to 100% mark. Constantly stir the solution to keep the Fossil Shell Flour "suspended"; it will not dissolve but will remain "suspended" evenly in water.
Observations:
1. All plants showed "new growth" the next morning (which I attribute to adding water soluble 16-16-16 fertilizer to the mix...something I wish I did years ago).
2. The grow medium had a good covering of Fossil Shell Flour evenly throughout--no clumping and seemed to hold both Riptide and Orthene (so says my nose).
3. The grow medium seemed to dry out about a day or so earlier--as I was able to transplant 2 days after treating them; no exploding rootballs...and all were "thirsty" on the 3rd day (little to no plant shock is my interpretation).
4. Less RA Cocktail is required if the bottom half/third is soaked--instead of 100%. Nice savings without sacrificing the effectiveness for 100% RA eradication.
5. The Fossil Shell Flour not only is an "absorbent" (can hold many times it's weight in water), but is pH neutral and nearly 90% silica oxide. So is it a "must have"?...no, but I will not go without it....IMHO, what is a "must" is water soluble fertilizer (something like 16-16-16).
Now, will the Orthene/Riptide Cocktail work on Fungus Gnats? Yes...and most every other soil critter as well. For fungus gnats, I would definitely make the Fossil Shell Flour mandatory. But recently I have been experimenting with "saponins" to control Fungus Gnats and so far (knocks on wood), I like what I see.
Here is what I posted earlier in a different thread--
So after the RA Cocktail treatment, you might consider a monthly dose of saponins to keep the FGs in check...I am. (After a few months I decided treatment every 14 days was a wee bit excessive).
LOL, it has been a few years since I have seen the little shits so I decided I would tweek my recipe a bit; I did the "dirty deed" last Tuesday to plants in both tables and I am more than impressed with the results both immediately and at the 1 week mark.
Let me outline the changes--but first let me qualify my garden: I use a custom peat based growmix, veg and flour in two different rooms, perpetual harvest every 15 days or so, and since March I have been "reclaiming" my soil--and to prevent unwanted critters I spray the soil about 10 days prior to transplanting with Orthene/Riptide spray (same rates).
The changes:
1. Instead of dunking 100% of the container/rootball--only the bottom 1/3-1/2 of the container was immersed and drenched with 3 times the normal amount to achieve complete soil saturation including a slight 5-10% runoff. Example, if plant is saturated with 12 ounces--then slowly drench with 36 ounces (3x12) of RA cocktail.
2. Two ingredients were added to the cocktail:
-Water soluble fertilizer (Growmore Seagrow 16-16-16) to replace any fertility that is leached away during RA treatment.
-Diatomaceous Earth (PermaGuard Fossil Shell Flour) to utilize the symbiotic relationship that DE has with Pyrethrin...and perhaps buffer the pH (which seems to be a problem for some people). Not the chunky or gritty DE, you want finely ground...almost talcum powder-like.
Revised RA Cocktail (per gallon):
1 gram Sea Grow 16-16-16
2.29 grams Orthene (97% acephate)
2.25 ml Riptide (pyrethrin+pbo)
8 oz Fossil Shell Flour (volume ounces not weight)
Add the ingredients in the order listed to 50% of the amount of water required. After adding Fossil Shell Flour cover bucket immediately and wait about 3 minutes or so---this will prevent a mini DE dust storm from rolling out of the bucket...lol.
Stir well and add water to 100% mark. Constantly stir the solution to keep the Fossil Shell Flour "suspended"; it will not dissolve but will remain "suspended" evenly in water.
Observations:
1. All plants showed "new growth" the next morning (which I attribute to adding water soluble 16-16-16 fertilizer to the mix...something I wish I did years ago).
2. The grow medium had a good covering of Fossil Shell Flour evenly throughout--no clumping and seemed to hold both Riptide and Orthene (so says my nose).
3. The grow medium seemed to dry out about a day or so earlier--as I was able to transplant 2 days after treating them; no exploding rootballs...and all were "thirsty" on the 3rd day (little to no plant shock is my interpretation).
4. Less RA Cocktail is required if the bottom half/third is soaked--instead of 100%. Nice savings without sacrificing the effectiveness for 100% RA eradication.
5. The Fossil Shell Flour not only is an "absorbent" (can hold many times it's weight in water), but is pH neutral and nearly 90% silica oxide. So is it a "must have"?...no, but I will not go without it....IMHO, what is a "must" is water soluble fertilizer (something like 16-16-16).
Now, will the Orthene/Riptide Cocktail work on Fungus Gnats? Yes...and most every other soil critter as well. For fungus gnats, I would definitely make the Fossil Shell Flour mandatory. But recently I have been experimenting with "saponins" to control Fungus Gnats and so far (knocks on wood), I like what I see.
Here is what I posted earlier in a different thread--
So after the RA Cocktail treatment, you might consider a monthly dose of saponins to keep the FGs in check...I am. (After a few months I decided treatment every 14 days was a wee bit excessive).
StankyBeamer
Professional A$$hole
Bravo sir! Even more valuable information. What would you say to adding gh flora heads recipe reduced to 4ml/6ml with the orthene instead of the all purpose ?
That might work, especially if you have it already on the shelf. The notion I stumbled on is, adding some water soluble ferts to replace what will be leached from the RA treatment is almost a must. Now, from experience I also realize that Nitrogen (urea specifically) can be your friend when the plant needs a boost of green leaves.
The normal dosage for Seagrow 16-16-16 is 1-2 grams per gallon...so yeah, half the normal dose is where I would start. But damn, seeing new growth on all the plants the following morning was exciting--not one plant "stalled out", showed droop, or "crispy edges". Like I said, this old guy wished he added the water solubles years ago when I was the "mad scientist" just starting to experiment with orthene...lol. Ahhh, but now we know!
The Fossil Shell Flour trick will not work for the hydro gang....but I bet the water soluble fert trick will.
The normal dosage for Seagrow 16-16-16 is 1-2 grams per gallon...so yeah, half the normal dose is where I would start. But damn, seeing new growth on all the plants the following morning was exciting--not one plant "stalled out", showed droop, or "crispy edges". Like I said, this old guy wished he added the water solubles years ago when I was the "mad scientist" just starting to experiment with orthene...lol. Ahhh, but now we know!
The Fossil Shell Flour trick will not work for the hydro gang....but I bet the water soluble fert trick will.
Miraculous Meds
Well-known member
Thanks again eclipse!
I was just writing a pm to u and figured id check the thread first. u answered most of my follow up questions already!
I was going to ask about the nutes especially since im in coir and keeping the cec happy is a must. Im guessing in the past, that's where some people had some burn issues.
After eradication, do u think that a top feed root drench would be a good choice for part of a ipm plan? I see u say u were doing every 14 days and quit that. what about once before flower or something like that? Probably a good idea to treat all new medium, and new clones too eh?
And is there any important safety issues to take care of with orthene? I will of course read the instructions and safety section carefully, but in ur experience is there any obvious things about orthene I should know?
I was just writing a pm to u and figured id check the thread first. u answered most of my follow up questions already!
I was going to ask about the nutes especially since im in coir and keeping the cec happy is a must. Im guessing in the past, that's where some people had some burn issues.
After eradication, do u think that a top feed root drench would be a good choice for part of a ipm plan? I see u say u were doing every 14 days and quit that. what about once before flower or something like that? Probably a good idea to treat all new medium, and new clones too eh?
And is there any important safety issues to take care of with orthene? I will of course read the instructions and safety section carefully, but in ur experience is there any obvious things about orthene I should know?
Last edited:
Orthene has shown not to harm the microherd and can be a "systemic" when foliar sprayed (which we are not). So IMHO, "no harm...no foul" rules apply here.
If you cleaned up your shop real good (clean everything 1x...then do it again) and the RA treatment was effective (100% rootball saturation) then I see no reason to bring out this big gun as a preventive measure. Usually the "sickliest" plant will be the hardest to eradicate, so monitor the worst one and if you see them again, then I would do the 100% dunk trick (with the new ingredients).
IPM with saponins...I found no difference for plants treated 1x month vs 2x month--both worked well; so, why do more if it was not necessary? I do employ multiple strategies for FGs: Mosquito Bits (BTi), contact cards, saponins, Fossil Shell Flour, etc...but if I had a massive problem I would do the Orthene/Riptide combo for a one time knockdown without hesitation. Just cautious of using a "big gun" when a "bitch slap" will work just as well....lol.
Oh yeah, Orthene does STINK...so hold your breath when weighing out the dose, dump immediately in water, and walk out of the room before you "inhale" again. That's what I do...lol.
If you cleaned up your shop real good (clean everything 1x...then do it again) and the RA treatment was effective (100% rootball saturation) then I see no reason to bring out this big gun as a preventive measure. Usually the "sickliest" plant will be the hardest to eradicate, so monitor the worst one and if you see them again, then I would do the 100% dunk trick (with the new ingredients).
IPM with saponins...I found no difference for plants treated 1x month vs 2x month--both worked well; so, why do more if it was not necessary? I do employ multiple strategies for FGs: Mosquito Bits (BTi), contact cards, saponins, Fossil Shell Flour, etc...but if I had a massive problem I would do the Orthene/Riptide combo for a one time knockdown without hesitation. Just cautious of using a "big gun" when a "bitch slap" will work just as well....lol.
Oh yeah, Orthene does STINK...so hold your breath when weighing out the dose, dump immediately in water, and walk out of the room before you "inhale" again. That's what I do...lol.
av8or
Member
Green lacewings are assholes...but it's a good thing for us! They nom on all the other critters in the garden till they're eradicated. Then they turn on each other. By the time they get to the flying stage they have already joined the Donner Party so there's no worries regarding flying lacewings. The entire process took about ten to twelve days, if I remember correctly.
I've had really good luck with Green Lacewing larvae. They're ravenous, they slawtuh, sack, and pillage, then it's last man standing or they start changing into adults. The one thing is that they don't go into the soil to go after RAs and FGs. DE on soil surface will grind them too. Good luck. -granger
Miraculous Meds
Well-known member
orthene in flower?
I couldn't find any info for phi in the paperwork. whats the consensus on using orthene in flower? How long do u have to phi, if u can use safely in flower. Im guessing no, since I couldn't find the info for tomatoes or something similar.
I couldn't find any info for phi in the paperwork. whats the consensus on using orthene in flower? How long do u have to phi, if u can use safely in flower. Im guessing no, since I couldn't find the info for tomatoes or something similar.
Miraculous Meds
Well-known member
thanks for ur opinion granger, that's my thinking too. u guys got me off the imid. I knew not to use that in flower. Just wasn't sure with the short half life of orthene if there was some safe phi. Until I know for sure, the safest thing to do is keep it in veg.
IMHO, fighting RAs in flower is kinda futile--as the damage has been done, but it is hard to just sit by and do nothing.
For us with "perpetual flowering", an alternative strategy should be employed: Those plants that are close to harvest should be segregated and left alone (anything you do to these will just fuck up the smoke). Now for the remaining plants--those that are at least 4-5 weeks from harvest--I would have no problem treating with the orthene/riptide but be prepared to extend the flowering time by a week or so. The iffy plants...are those that are in between: not "close to harvest" and not "4-5 weeks from harvest"--pure judgement call; my vote is no orthene/riptide for this group as well--but others have and reported no problem.
For us with "perpetual flowering", an alternative strategy should be employed: Those plants that are close to harvest should be segregated and left alone (anything you do to these will just fuck up the smoke). Now for the remaining plants--those that are at least 4-5 weeks from harvest--I would have no problem treating with the orthene/riptide but be prepared to extend the flowering time by a week or so. The iffy plants...are those that are in between: not "close to harvest" and not "4-5 weeks from harvest"--pure judgement call; my vote is no orthene/riptide for this group as well--but others have and reported no problem.
Regarding half-life--
Acephate is rapidly degraded in soil by microorganisms under both
aerobic and anaerobic conditions. The half-life of acephate ranged from 0.5 to 3
days. The soil types in this experiment included loamy sand, sandy clay, silty
clay loam, loam, and clay (Chevron, 1972e and 1972f). Acephate is readily
metabolized in the soil under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions. The same
products are formed in both of these conditions. The metabolites formed are
O,S-dimethyl phosphoramidothioate (methamidophos) and O-methyl Nacetylphosphoramidate
(RE 18,420) (Chevron, 1972g and #1972h).
According to EPA, 1987, acephate dissipates rapidly with half-lives of less
than 3 and 6 days in aerobic and anaerobic soils, respectively. The major
metabolite was found to be carbon dioxide in both types of soil.
Acephate is readily degraded by plants. This is evident in studies done on
both field sprayed crops and by using 14C-labeled acephate in the greenhouse.
The half-life is approximately 5 to 10 days. Only about 5 to 10% of acephate
degrades to methamidophos (O,S-dimethyl phosphoramidothioate). The rest of
the acephate degrades to innocuous salts.
Source: http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/acephate.pdf
BTW, the data on plant metabolism is when acephate is applied as a foliar spray (which we are not).
Acephate is rapidly degraded in soil by microorganisms under both
aerobic and anaerobic conditions. The half-life of acephate ranged from 0.5 to 3
days. The soil types in this experiment included loamy sand, sandy clay, silty
clay loam, loam, and clay (Chevron, 1972e and 1972f). Acephate is readily
metabolized in the soil under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions. The same
products are formed in both of these conditions. The metabolites formed are
O,S-dimethyl phosphoramidothioate (methamidophos) and O-methyl Nacetylphosphoramidate
(RE 18,420) (Chevron, 1972g and #1972h).
According to EPA, 1987, acephate dissipates rapidly with half-lives of less
than 3 and 6 days in aerobic and anaerobic soils, respectively. The major
metabolite was found to be carbon dioxide in both types of soil.
Acephate is readily degraded by plants. This is evident in studies done on
both field sprayed crops and by using 14C-labeled acephate in the greenhouse.
The half-life is approximately 5 to 10 days. Only about 5 to 10% of acephate
degrades to methamidophos (O,S-dimethyl phosphoramidothioate). The rest of
the acephate degrades to innocuous salts.
Source: http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/acephate.pdf
BTW, the data on plant metabolism is when acephate is applied as a foliar spray (which we are not).
As to how the RAs entered my garden? I have no idea--but definitely hitched a ride on someone/something: me, dogs, wifey, flying fungus gnats, springtails, reclaimed grow medium--who knows? It pays to inspect your plants...they have a way of letting you know when--all is NOT well.
I re-inspected all plants today--phew: zero, zip, nicht, nada! Imagine that, one treatment (over a week ago)...and still good! Much better than continuous treatments with chems/synthetics with half-lives measured in 100s of days.
Miraculous Meds
Well-known member
Day 1 after the dip, and plants didn't miss a beat. thanks eclipse n everybody else that contributes here. I threw on goggles n a mask when mixing and used some chem gloves. Smells pretty strong as u said. u obviously don't want the chems soaking on u, but id say its about like pyrethrin, in that the main danger to humans is if ur inhaling the vapors. I took the mask off after mixing since I wasn't spraying anything.
RedBeardy5
Active member
I just got RA and drenched the medium with I is and they look great now. I ordered some Orthene to drench just in case. What is the dosage for Orthene, I think I saw 2.29 grams per gallon. Since its systematic would it be fine if I just sprayed the plants?
Red, I would follow the recipe just as I posted above.
IMHO, spraying will not do shit. The intent of my Orthene/Riptide Cocktail is for "contact kill", meaning the RAs must come in contact with the solution--not to utilize its systemic qualities. The systemic capabilities of Orthene are rather pronounced when applied as a foliar spray--but not so much when applied via roots (which we are doing).
I am hesitant of using any pesticide with "systemic" qualities in my "smoking garden"....you know the usual concerns: pesticide residual in plant tissue and its effect on quality of smoke.
That said, I am not aware of anyone successfully eradicating RAs via foliar spraying their plants with Orthene. I do know that Orthene 97 is used to control Fire Ants (soil drench) at the rate of about 5 grams per gallon....so it is one of those pesticides that is "AC/DC" (root/foliar application), depending on the objective.
IMHO, spraying will not do shit. The intent of my Orthene/Riptide Cocktail is for "contact kill", meaning the RAs must come in contact with the solution--not to utilize its systemic qualities. The systemic capabilities of Orthene are rather pronounced when applied as a foliar spray--but not so much when applied via roots (which we are doing).
I am hesitant of using any pesticide with "systemic" qualities in my "smoking garden"....you know the usual concerns: pesticide residual in plant tissue and its effect on quality of smoke.
That said, I am not aware of anyone successfully eradicating RAs via foliar spraying their plants with Orthene. I do know that Orthene 97 is used to control Fire Ants (soil drench) at the rate of about 5 grams per gallon....so it is one of those pesticides that is "AC/DC" (root/foliar application), depending on the objective.
RedBeardy5
Active member
Ok cool, I got the Orthene 97 foliar spray. I'll just use it as a root drench then at the dose you suggested. It's advertised as foliar but comes in powdered. Thanks for your help!
