Effective Microorganisms, aka EM

[mad librettist]

Just reading more Vinny here, adv. brewing guide page 43 -

apparently the PNSB need TIME. Lots of it, if you want them to reproduce. They are SLOW. And they can use light or the waste of the yeasts and dead yeast cells for food. So while added sugar would not speed things up, would it not increase CO2 and dead yeast cells, thus giving PNSB food for growth? Not sure if you want it all at once. 2ndtry, I would venture to guess that the vigorous brewing you describe is yeast driven.

This means the fungal component is crucial!

There is not a lot of "data" in this guide. But it is a brewing guide, and I would not want it cluttered with data.

 

[secondtry]

Hey Mad.L.,

ok I just double checked VP's book. Under the heading "sample recipe for a good quality batch" he gives a 1.5:1 EM:molasses ratio. He also emphasizes this when brewing with less than ideal containers like old fertilizer barrels.

OK, thanks for that.

Think about it. If degradation of the aggregate's integrity is a function of mathematical reality, starting with 1.5 instead of 1 is a huge difference. If you think in log, it's just huge - halfway to doubling. Upping the food instead would just amplify whatever faults are there at the start. When using extra food, I like to take VP's advice and add it after the initial fermentation, along with some more EM.

You are seem to be forgetting the (near) exponential increase of microbes due to increased foodstuffs, that is what my ferments and understating suggests. Besides, VP also suggests molasses:water ratio as low as I do for longer ferments.

VP suggests adding extra foodstuff and EM as a special ferment, not for the average grower, and I agree. There is no need to do that and doing so will mess up the anaerobic nature of the microbial synergism/balances in place (e.g., IIRC PnSB can feed off of yeast cells).

AEM is an anaerobic fermentation process. Keeping it simple and anaerobic is the best way to ideal AEM.

Trich, VP has a bunch of tests you can do to check, like rust removal. Maybe consider the book? Like my sig says, nobody can be wrong about everything.

I thought I wrote out ORP? That is how can can test relevant amount/activity of PnSB, see the attached PFDs, one is for a ORP meter from PikeAgriLabs and the other is a PDF of info from page by VP a long time ago. Anyway, that is not the data to which I am referring, I would like to see plate counts, Co2 quantitation as smile as counting bubbles (I have already been working an a DIY method to do this which displaces water and could then be measured as cm difference-but it could be a non-starter idea of mine) etc.

BTW, I have a friend making bokashi out of 2nd gen AEM I made. He's getting all the right smells.

That should happen If I am correct the '2nd gen' AEM will be mostly LAB which are also the microbes most active in bokashi (PnSB are pretty non-relevant in bokashi process). Thus by using 2nd gen AEM the boakshi could be better then (and at least as good as) if using AEM.

I for one make bokashi with LAB serum visa vis (thanks for the correction) Gil's method with my own tweaks.

I just wish I could copy and paste from this book. PDF won't let me.

But yeah, on page 131, the recipe is right there. 1.5:1.

2nd try, I suspect using so much sugar would favor the sugar eaters like yeast and LAB, no?

No I don't think so, not more so than 5% less molasses (i.e., 1:1:20), after all, the increase in molasses probably only means an increase in 1-3% sugar overall; I will do some testing with a good brix meter. VP also uses molasses:water at a rate of 1:15, and also lower I think he suggested not lower than 1:13 for all but special ferments other than the 'extended ferment' I wrote about.

HTH

 

[mad librettist]

2nd try, the bubbles you see at the beginning are the result of aerobic respiration, are they not? By yeasts?

I scoff at your test, btw. Way overkill for a consumer like me.

I am not sure we are on the same page re: replication. Seems to me that the critters simply reproduce at different rates, but can catch up to each other given time. Which seems to support the idea of doing a very solid 1.5:1 brew aged well, then brewing it out some more?

Further, the introduction of wild organisms seems to be just fine from what I'm reading. Maybe even good.

also, I'm more confused than ever about facultative anaerobes. Form Wiki:

A facultative anaerobic organism is an organism, usually a bacterium, that makes ATP by aerobic respiration if oxygen is present but is also capable of switching to fermentation. In contrast, obligate anaerobes die in presence of oxygen.

 

[secondtry]

Hey,

Just reading more Vinny here, adv. brewing guide page 43 -

apparently the PNSB need TIME. Lots of it, if you want them to reproduce. They are SLOW. And they can use light or the waste of the yeasts and dead yeast cells for food. So while added sugar would not speed things up, would it not increase CO2 and dead yeast cells, thus giving PNSB food for growth? Not sure if you want it all at once. 2ndtry, I would venture to guess that the vigorous brewing you describe is yeast driven.

When I isolate and culture PnSB it takes about 1 week to see a full bloom; sometimes shorter, sometimes longer. I ferment AEM for at least 7 days, even tho the initial pH drop happens in the first few days. I believe MM ferments his AEM he drinks for weeks past the initial pH drop.

It seems to that by providing ideal temps, light, food and gasses for PnSB they would reproduce quicker, I have seen as much in my cultures of wild PnSB.

I don't think the fermentation is yeast driven, I thinks it's driven by LAB (mostly), I see the same response when I ferment LAB serum as I ferment AEM. (even tho there is probably yeast in the LAB serum they don't like low pH like LAB). The cascade of bubbles continues for days past pH drop below 3.4, that is LAB in action AFAIK.

There is not a lot of "data" in this guide. But it is a brewing guide, and I would not want it cluttered with data.

Cluttered with data? No, me either, but a little data, and some references would be awful nice!

Thanks

 

[secondtry]

@ Mad.L.,

Whatever you are happy with is good with me. My only caveat is don't take Vinnie's word as gospel, nor mine, nor anyone's, but trust those who offer references and data more than those who don't (IMO anyway).

 

[mad librettist]

What did you feed your PNSB?

Yeah, EM for drinking doesn't just age for weeks. It goes for months. My current batch tastes vinous.

2ndtry, want to try an experiment? put your high brix molasses in your brewer with brewer's yeast.

 

[secondtry]

Hey there MM,

Some points;
I often reduce the ratio of water (14 parts; to 18 parts) for more potent EM. I only use 20 parts for agriculture. I think it would be interesting to try 1:1 EM and pure grape juice (Welchs pure squeezed, no water).

This is something from Vinny I have always been kinda of unsure about: if it's wise to ferment with grape juice. I would think making a regular AEM and then adding grape juice before drinking might be a better route (microbially); tho maybe not for the action of microbes upon the grape juice.

There is a lot of bogus information about yeast not being fungi. It is but when we see it in cell form (budding yeast), as in my videos, it has not grown into hyphae. There are those (specialists) around these days who view yeast as a negative in soil in compost and soil.

Snicker, snicker...you are kind to use that word to describe some of them.

To an excess sure but I commonly see it in healthy soil and in good compost/vermicompost (cast--haha).

Ha. I agree about yeast in healthy soils and compost/vermicompost (there I did it! ). They aid in breaking up soil dry soils with low OM, adding tilth, etc, zymogenic soil sums up some functions of yeast (and LAB) well.


Here is an excerpt from a pretty good white paper about EM, etc. I think the definitions are taken from Dr. Higa (?), I don't like the use of the term "synthetic soil", but I figured this was worth posting in case you or others have not yet seen it. I am not claiming is this 100% correct, but it is what it is:


"SOIL AND SUSTAINABILITY: Effective Microorganisms as Regenerative Systems in Earth Healing"
Dan Woodward BA(Hons), MSc (in progress). Brighton, March 2003

(I attached the paper to this post)

---------------------------------
A zymogenic soil has the following characteristics, pleasant fermentative odors especially after tillage, favorable soil physical properties - increased aggregate stability, permeability, aeration and decreased resistance to tillage, large amounts of inorganic nutrients, amino acids, carbohydrates, vitamins and other bioactive substances which can directly or indirectly enhance the growth, yield and quality of crops, low occupancy of the hostile Fusarium fungi, and low production of greenhouse gases.

A synthetic soil is one that has a significant population of microorganisms able to fix atmospheric nitrogen and carbon dioxide into complex molecules such as amino acids, proteins and carbohydrates, with photosynthetic bacteria which perform incomplete photosynthesis anaerobically, and both green algae and blue-green algae which function aerobically. Such a soil is naturally disease suppressive therefore minimising the use of expensive and destructive pesticides and fungicides.
----------------------------------

SCD used to list both ray-fungi and actinomycetes (actinobacteria) on their label until I pointed out that they are the same thing (and they are bacteria not fungi)....ooops.

That was you? Cool beans. Thanks for that.

Vinny has some lab equipment but I'm quite certain he does not do microscope work nor plate counts.

Me to, I have not seen data from him I can remember...

All the best

 

[secondtry]

What did you feed your PNSB?

Light, heat and hydrolyzed fish to cover my basis.

2ndtry, want to try an experiment? put your high brix molasses in your brewer with brewer's yeast.

Why?

The info on high brix molasses comes from Dr. Ingham. And I would ask you to look in Vinnie's book for info on brix of AEM. I think Vinny wrote the brix should not be below 8 or above 18, ideally around 10-13 when starting to ferment. Can you please verify or correct me?

Thanks.

 

[mad librettist]

oh, I wanted you to do the yeast test so you could see that much of what we see in the early days of EM fermentation looks a hell of a lot like aerobic yeast fermentation. If it looks like a duck... Aerobic yeast fermentation is also a great way to remove some oxygen. BTW, as I see it, ONLY aerobic respiration of some kind could remove the excess O2. Got any exceptions? My long brews sometimes have negative pressure - a sign to me that something is gobbling air, they either wanted the C or wanted the O, right? Or maybe the N and H?

Hydrolyzed fish eh? Maybe I will get some shrimp paste. I am allergic to fish. If I am going to be spraying it I don't want to be breathing it... then again maybe once it's eaten?

So if you used fish hydrolysate for your PNSB, they were either in heterotrophic mode (light and dark), or photoheterotrophic (partial photosynthesis) mode? If I'm not mistaken that is also the nitrogen fixing mode?

So how necessary is the light?

And what is succinate and why is it needed for photoheterotrophic?

And what is thiosulfate? Is it H2? My diagram shows H2 (thiosulfate? from H2O?), CO2, and light as necessary from autotrophic mode.

phew!

 

[Trichgnomes]

Hey,



When I isolate and culture PnSB it takes about 1 week to see a full bloom; sometimes shorter, sometimes longer. I ferment AEM for at least 7 days, even tho the initial pH drop happens in the first few days. I believe MM ferments his AEM he drinks for weeks past the initial pH drop.

It seems to that by providing ideal temps, light, food and gasses for PnSB they would reproduce quicker, I have seen as much in my cultures of wild PnSB.

Would you mind taking the time to describe how and where to culture PNSB. Perhaps a general guide similar to Jaykush's LAB tutorial?

 

[secondtry]

oh, I wanted you to do the yeast test so you could see that much of what we see in the early days of EM fermentation looks a hell of a lot like aerobic yeast fermentation. If it looks like a duck...

Correct me if I'm wrong by yeast won't drop the pH like the acids from LAB, and the O2 is used up (like I mentioned). I didn't write none of the bubbles are form yeast, nor are the bubbles Co2. I wrote the LAB are probably the source of the bubbles considering how fast the pH drops to below 3.4, and that the same thing happens when I ferment LAB serum.

BTW, as I see it, ONLY aerobic respiration of some kind could remove the excess O2. Got any exceptions?

Yes: O2 molecules/bubbles moving to the surface of water.

My long brews sometimes have negative pressure

AFAIK they shouldn't be doing that, that's odd. But I have only done ferments up to about 2 months.

So if you used fish hydrolysate for your PNSB, they were either in heterotrophic mode (light and dark), or photoheterotrophic (partial photosynthesis) mode? If I'm not mistaken that is also the nitrogen fixing mode?

So how necessary is the light?

Like I wrote I do so to cover my basis and light is AFAIK preferred by PnSB (Purple non-Sulfur Bacteria), so if they can use light I think they will. But I have no info on this.

 

[secondtry]

@ Mad.L.

See this University course on PnSB more a lot of info. And the paper at the bottom offers some insights to dark vs. ligth PnSB action:

Bacteriology 102 - Purple Non-Sulfur Photosynthetic Bacteria
http://www.splammo.net/bact102/102pnsb.html




Dark vs. Light:

Robert L. Uffen and R. S. Wolfe. 1970.

Anaerobic Growth of Purple Nonsulfur Bacteria Under Dark Conditions. J Bacteriol. 1970 October; 104(1): 462–472.​

Purple nonsulfur photosynthetic bacteria were cultured anaerobically in the absence of light by a modification of the Hungate technique. Growth was slow and resembled that of fastidious anaerobes; on yeast extract-peptone-agar medium, each cell produced about 16 descendants in 15 to 20 days. Growth was stimulated by addition of ethyl alcohol, acetate and H2, or pyruvate and H2. Cells grown in the presence of pyruvate and H2 produced acetate and CO2; each cell produced approximately 10 descendants in 24 hr under anaerobic, dark conditions. Spectrophotometric evidence obtained from cells which were the product of five generations suggests no difference between the bacteriochlorophyll and carotenoids synthesized by cells grown anaerobically under dark or light conditions. Likewise, the ultrastructure of the photosynthetic apparatus in cells grown anaerobically in the dark and in the light appears similar.

HTH

 

[mad librettist]

interesting on the yeast extract... supports VP's claims that yeast bodies and waste is used by PNSB for food.

Quote:
BTW, as I see it, ONLY aerobic respiration of some kind could remove the excess O2. Got any exceptions?
Yes: O2 molecules/bubbles moving to the surface of water.

ok now i'm really lost. I thought O2 and CO2 are water soluble? Meaning the O2 concentration equalizes between air and water according to basic laws of nature? Someone is either turning into water via respiration, or it's floating around forever. And PNSB photosynthesis - does not make O2, right?

I didn't say yeast lowers the pH, btw, and the key is that I only referenced the early days of fermentation, esp. as you described it. My fermentations are much more tame. And my pH strips are precious, so I don't test until it looks done.

Seems to me the benefits of a healthy yeast component, just waiting for O2 and possibly switching to anaerobic, is that you don't need to be careful about removing o2 from water by boiling, go crazy if someone cracks the lid, or worry too much. It also explains why my latest brew seemed "asleep" until I opened it, when it started inflating again. Yeast got air, ate some stuff, and something else at that stuff. Let air in, seal again, and the yeast will take care of it. Could even help the PNSB.

 

[secondtry]

Would you mind taking the time to describe how and where to culture PNSB. Perhaps a general guide similar to Jaykush's LAB tutorial?

Sure, but give me a little while. I will do it when I get to OR. That is the first project I plan to do with MM's microscope and my HD camcorder. The PnSB bloom in water is very pretty, brilliant reds and purples. That is what made me what to make microbe art in the first place.

MM has seen my original experiment documentation and pictures. I have been meaning to do this ever since MM asked to me more than year ago. Life seems to get in the way but I will do my best to get it done soon. My original goal is to make a DIY EM mother culture, which is very doable IMO. The only microbes needed for EM which I have yet to culture from the wild is Bacillus spp., and sugar yeast; but the yeast is very cheap to buy and Bacillus spp. is easier to isolate and culture than yeast from tree bark/sap. I have plans worked out on how one could isolate both microbes and culture both, but yeast seems more error prone.

I have a great white paper from Japan, circa 1970's which is not from Dr. Higa, but it is all about how to make EM mother culture and what microbes to add in what order with what type of water agitation and what light, etc. While it's old I think it's the base for Dr. Higa's original work with EM. I also think it is on a crashed HDD, I saved it and plan to hire a computer geek to get the data back for me.

HTH

 

[secondtry]

interesting on the yeast extract... supports VP's claims that yeast bodies and waste is used by PNSB for food.

"Yeast extract" is a common source of N for bacterial and fungal work, not just for PnSB.

I didn't say yeast lowers the pH, btw, and the key is that I only referenced the early days of fermentation, esp. as you described it. My fermentations are much more tame. And my pH strips are precious, so I don't test until it looks done.

I wrote the cascade of bubbles starts within hours, as does the pH drop. Peak cascade happens right around/before pH of 3.4 and below that often happens under 24 hours. That is why I suggest LAB are those creating bubbles AND dropping pH. Also, because I use mineral oil there no "head space" (as VP calls it) it means I get very little buildup from yeast on surface of water, that is indicative of low yeast activity according to SCD World (FWIW). When you ferment AEM does it have build up of organic matter on the surface, i.e., from yeast?

I'm done going back and fourth on this, I am pretty sure it's from LAB and told you why. Until is see data I'm dropping it.

Have a good day

 

[Clackamas Coot]

secondtry

RE: Yeasts

I was wondering if the 'yeasts' used/found in the EM product aren't the same 'type' of yeasts found when growing a new culture of sourdough (incorrect name - the correct name among bakers is 'wild yeast') which, depending on the source around the world, are different types of lactobacillus.

Just curious.

CC

 

[mad librettist]

When you ferment AEM does it have build up of organic matter on the surface, i.e., from yeast?

ok, i'll go on with anyone else who's interested. I'm just getting started. Hope there are others!

Yes, I do get some white chunks, especially in older brews. I assume this is "dead yeast"? Otherwise, what OM would I expect from 2 day's worth of ethanol fermentation? I usually don't see anything in bread or beer that looks out of the ordinary, and that fermentation is really kicking.

I also detect a hint of alcohol in my finished brew, not unlike kombucha.

To make CO2, don't LAB have to reprocess the lactic acid? Do they do this faster than yeast?

Is yeast a kind of regulator in the EM triumvirate? (Yeast, LAB, PNSB are required to make EM acc. to Dr. Higa via VP)

 

[mad librettist]

secondtry

RE: Yeasts

I was wondering if the 'yeasts' used/found in the EM product aren't the same 'type' of yeasts found when growing a new culture of sourdough (incorrect name - the correct name among bakers is 'wild yeast') which, depending on the source around the world, are different types of lactobacillus.

Just curious.

CC

Yeasts are fungi. Not lactobacillus. My EM lists Saccharomyces cerevisiae on the label. It's a crucial part of the consortium. Then there are the yeasts from blackstrap, and your environment and your body.

Saccharomyces cerevisiae - cerevisae means "from beer". Today in Spanish, "cerveza" still means beer, and in French you might still hear "cervoise".

someone quote that for CC, he has me on ignore I think.

 

[secondtry]

Hey CC,

No I don't think they are, what genus is "wild yeast"? The yeast in EM is "sugar yeast" and is the same kind used in fermentation of wine, i.e., Saccharomyces cerevisiae, you can buy packs at a beer brew shop. To isolate from wild S.cerevisiae using sap from inside of bark of certain tress is a good way I know of.

HTH

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Hey,

No I don't think they are, what genus is "wild yeast"? The yeast in EM is "sugar yeast" and is the same kind used in fermentation of wine, i.e., Saccharomyces cerevisiae, you can buy packs at a beer brew shop. To isolate from wild using sap from inside of bark of certain tress is a good way I know of.

HTH

Well - one method developed in France in the 18th Century uses grape skins because the 'gray' covering on grapes contain any number of 'wild yeasts' that start the fermentation process.

Organic rye seeds (ground) is the other method.

CC