Effective Microorganisms, aka EM

[secondtry]

would it be correct to assume that this will help to correct body chemistry?

It would seem that ingesting acidic substance would cause the body to respond by alkalizing

That is a claim by EM and Kombucha proponents. I for one ferment Kombucha and drink over 8 oz a day, for over a year now. My pH (urine test) is ideal; but I also eat very healthy life style, I am a pescitarian and I don't eat dairy based products or non-splet, leven breads, etc.

I won't claim it lowers, or correct pH but that is what many people claim (no studies on this AFAIK).

 

[Trichgnomes]

Hey,

pH of 3.4 or less is ideal, pH of 3.5 is OK too but not over 3.5 is best. Your good to go with your application, my AEM reaches pH 3.5 or lower in 1-3 days but I continue fermenting until the rate of Co2 bubbles slows which means the food source for yeast and LAB (molasses) is running low. (but I use a unique method others don't that is why I get so fast pH drop and such high rate of bacterial growth)

I noticed the CO2 bubbles slowing towards the end, that was another reason it seemed done. What is your unique method that others don't use? Just curious.

I don't agree with using AEM to make more AEM, the microbial balances and synergies will be off. There is a balance of microbes in EM (and AEM) and it is a safe bet to assume by extending the AEM into more AEM you will loose a large population of PnSB and they are the heart of EM and AEM.

Your better off making more AEM from EM. HTH

That was my impression of why one cannot make AEM from AEM indefinitely, but I have read Vinny Pinto and others make between 2 and 5 extensions from the first activation. I understand what you are saying, but I am wondering if there has been any documented lab analysis of a second or third extension, to give a more objective explanation.

 

[Trichgnomes]

Because you are stating with a different source. It would be like making ACT from ACT.

I think do not think your analogy is quite right. ACT is an aerobic process, not a fermentation. People use sour dough cultures more than once, as well as tibicos, komucha, kefir, et al. I agree that the EM SCOBY will not be at the optimum ratios/ diversity levels after multiple runs, and needs to be "refreshed." Why not 2 or three batches though?

 

[mad librettist]

I think do not think your analogy is quite right. ACT is an aerobic process, not a fermentation. People use sour dough cultures more than once, as well as tibicos, komucha, kefir, et al. I agree that the EM SCOBY will not be at the optimum ratios/ diversity levels after multiple runs, and needs to be "refreshed." Why not 2 or three batches though?

Yes this is exactly what makes no sense to me. Also, PNSB's are facultative anaerobes, no? Why would oxygen hinder them? If it's too unstable a group to be fermented twice, why should it be fermented once? We should be using it straight from the bottle only...

Further, ACT has predators. Does EM have predators?

As I understand it, the facultative anaerobes will get to work as long as there is enough material to ferment.

 

[secondtry]

I noticed the CO2 bubbles slowing towards the end, that was another reason it seemed done. What is your unique method that others don't use? Just curious.

The presence of Co2 bubbles mean there is fermentation tacking place and I use the pace/number of bubbles as a rough guide to the level of fermentation visa vie fermenting microbe activity (not PnSB or Bacillus spp.). My AEM start 'bubbling' in under 12 hours, the speed is quantity is quite surprising. It is like a cascade of Co2 (and other gasses), as if I put 2 or 3 air-stones in the jug with the AEM.

I can write a detailed description of what I do, and I will as I lost my last copy I wrote, but here is the skinny on my differences:

-I use filtered chlorine and chloramine free water

-I keep water temp from 95-100'F all the time

-I add a little hydrolyed fish for the PnSB

-I 'mix' the contents by spraying Co2 into the water thru a tube

-I provide the correct spectrum and (try) to provide the correct irridance of light most benefiting PnSB

-I pour a thin layer of mineral oil over the AEM water keep it very anaerobic (i.e, once initial O2 is used up), gases like Co2 can permeate up thru the oil but O2 doesn't permeation downward thru oil

Note:
MM would probably like me to mention that my method of using mineral oil to ferment AEM is untested, and he is correct. I think I am the first to propose this method for AEM, but it's adapted from decades old microbiology trick for the same purpose (isolating and culturing anaerobic microbes). I have personally isolated and cultured wild PnSB from stream water, soil, etc, using the mineral oil method I suggest and hydrolyzed fish/light/heat (undocumented; my other PnSB trial was documented). That gives me a bit of wind in my sails (as it were) with my suggestion of mineral oil and AEM. Also, the fact my ferments have so much active fermentation (Co2) production, and such fast pH drop I think is a strong indication the LAB and yeast also are benefited by my use of mineral oil. But like others have pointed out, plate counts are needed.

That was my impression of why one cannot make AEM from AEM indefinitely, but I have read Vinny Pinto and others make between 2 and 5 extensions from the first activation. I understand what you are saying, but I am wondering if there has been any documented lab analysis of a second or third extension, to give a more objective explanation.

To my knowledge there is no data to which we can point. I plan to carry out such testing in the next few months, plate counts and identifying PnSB, etc. While Mr. Pinto is a legend not all of his info is totally correct IMVHO. This is an example where I question his claims, maybe MM knows of studies, he is more familiar with Vinny than I am. I know another ICmag member who ferments AEM often enough that he might be persuaded to do some counts for us on extended AEM...

 

[secondtry]

Hey there,

I think do not think your analogy is quite right. ACT is an aerobic process, not a fermentation.

But what is the difference? If using AEM to make AEM you are staring with a different source (relative microbes) than with EM Mother Culture.

People use sour dough cultures more than once, as well as tibicos, komucha, kefir, et al.

Yea but it's generally the same starter, e.g., EM mother culture is the starter for AEM, where a SCOBY is from Kombucha where the mix of microbes are less diverse and all are fermenters (IIRC), those are less diverse than the biology in EM. Each new SCOBY has the same relative mix of only a few microbes; not so with AEM verses EM.

You guys are welcome to do as you like, and I could be incorrect (hence we need plate counts), but what I am stating is correct to my understating. As long as people are happy with their results that's the important part.

I agree that the EM SCOBY will not be at the optimum ratios/ diversity levels after multiple runs, and needs to be "refreshed." Why not 2 or three batches though?

There is no EM SCOBY, there is only EM mother culture, ie., the liquid. One doesn't get a SCOBY from AEM, that is why it's not wise to extend AEM into AEM (IMO).

 

[mad librettist]

To my knowledge there is no data to which we can point. I plan to carry out such testing in the next few months, plate counts and identifying PnSB, etc. While Mr. Pinto is a legend not all of his info is totally correct IMVHO. This is an example where I question his claims, maybe MM knows of studies, he is more familiar with Vinny than I am. I know another ICmag member who ferments AEM often enough that he might be persuaded to do some counts for us on extended AEM...

To my mind just an informal count would satisfy me. I just can't buy this tautological explanation given to us by the EM people. They want me to believe I can get this stuff to replicate once, but no more than that, and they try to tie language like "activated" on to replace "extended".

Reminds me of the claim that EM-x ceramic will "structure" your water

 

[secondtry]

Hey Mad.L,

You can extend AEM into more AEM but I don't think the resulting AEM will be the same as AEM from EM. We need more than an informal count IMO, we need to know the relative numbers/types of microbes (at least identify PnSB; there is a lab which will do this for minimal fees).

This is why the term extended is used: EM is different than AEM and AEM into AEM is extended because it's already activated from the EM state.

HTH

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Yea but it's generally the same starter, e.g., EM mother culture is the starter for AEM, where a SCOBY is from Kombucha where the mix of microbes are less diverse and all are fermenters (IIRC), those are less diverse than the biology in EM. Each new SCOBY has the same relative mix of only a few microbes; not so with AEM verses EM.

secondtry

I have purchased sour dough starter cultures from SourDo.com from a gentleman who traveled the world as a professor of agriculture at the University of Idaho. As he traveled he acquired any number of sourdough cultures.

By the time that you do your 4th refresh of the mother culture, that specific starter you bought that came from Naples will have none of the original flavor because the local airborne microbes have turned your Naples' starter into Willamette Valley starter or wherever you live.

CC

 

[mad librettist]

Hey Mad.L,

You can extend AEM into more AEM but I don't think the resulting AEM will be the same as AEM from EM.

With all the differences between different EM batches, molasses microbes and nutrition, and individual environments, I'm hardly worried about it. I care about how well it functions.

We gotta stop saying "activated". Is my brew for drinking that I have aged 3 months active? activated? This is what happens when the salesmen are the teachers. I sorta feel like I had a mother culture, and I extended it or better yet, used it to make a new product.

If you give me a vinegar mother, and I make vinegar with it, did I activate or extend your mother?

 

[secondtry]

secondtry

I have purchased sour dough starter cultures from SourDo.com from a gentleman who traveled the world as a professor of agriculture at the University of Idaho. As he traveled he acquired any number of sourdough cultures.

By the time that you do your 4th refresh of the mother culture, that specific starter you bought that came from Naples will have none of the original flavor because the local airborne microbes have turned your Naples' starter into Willamette Valley starter or wherever you live.

CC

Hey CC,

I am not sure what your driving at. Can you elaborate for me a little? I must be hungry and not clear headed right now...or it's the damn White Shark Thanks.

 

[Trichgnomes]

There is no EM SCOBY, there is only EM mother culture, ie., the liquid. One doesn't get a SCOBY from AEM, that is why it's not wise to extend AEM into AEM (IMO).

I know there isn't a semi solid gelatinous "SCOBY" in the sense that there is with kombucha and such, I guess I was using the term loosely. Is AEM (or, the EM culture once it has been fed and therefore multiplied, as mad lib would like to discern) not a symbiotic colony of bacteria and yeast? syntropic antioxidative microbes? I just get tired of using the same word/term to describe something, and try to switch it up.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Hey CC,

I am not sure what your driving at. Can you elaborate for me a little? I must be hungry and not clear headed right now...or it's the damn White Shark Thanks.

Sorry about that..........

The airborne microbes which created a culture in Naples contains local yeasts, bacteria, etc.

When you refresh these cultures the yeasts and bacteria from Naples is replaced with the local ones. That's why trying to bake 'San Francisco Sourdough' bread isn't going to work in Phoenix, Arizona after the first batch or so.

The foreign yeasts and bacteria are already weakened when the starter culture was dried for packaging and distribution. It's pretty easy for the local microbes to invade and wipe out the weakened colonies.

Member of the B.B.G.A for 5 years - LOL

CC

 

[secondtry]

hey trich,

I know there isn't a semi solid gelatinous "SCOBY" in the sense that there is with kombucha and such, I guess I was using the term loosely.

Is AEM (or, the EM culture once it has been fed and therefore multiplied, as mad lib would like to discern) not a symbiotic colony of bacteria and yeast?...

Yes but it's not the same type of bacteria in EM verses LAB based food ferments, the latter cultures are less diverse and generally comprised of fermenters. PnSB would not end up in LAB ferments (from the air) and reproduce as does LAB, and EM without PnSB is basically LAB. My main point is the mix of non-fermenters to fermenters will probably be off, and that's exacerbated by the PnSB who are crucial to EM and are faculataive anaerobes, doing poorly in O2 infused liquid.

...syntropic antioxidative microbes? I just get tired of using the same word/term to describe something, and try to switch it up. .

AEM can be measured for relative quantity/activity of PnSB in AEM by measuring the ORP (oxidation-reduction potential) of the AEM. LAB and yeast are so called "zymogenic" organisms, what Dr. Higa is referring to by claiming EM offers zygogenic balance to soil; these zymogenic organisms provide a fermented smell to soil in a zymogenic condition. PnSB are what makes EM good at bacterial-remediation of polluted water ways like in Japan.

I tried to point out (yet I could be in error) that in fermented cultures like Kombucha one is not keeping it anaerobic, nor are we concerned with non-fermenters (like PnSB) because few should be present. That is why you can use SCOBY from 'new' batches of Kombucha. The balance of types of microbes in EM and AEM is is very important.

I hope I didn't make any typos...or errors. Thanks for the good discussion.

 

[secondtry]

Hey,

ha, no problem, I have been working at comuter for too long, I get fuzzy after few hours.

Sorry about that..........

The airborne microbes which created a culture in Naples contains local yeasts, bacteria, etc.

When you refresh these cultures the yeasts and bacteria from Naples is replaced with the local ones. That's why trying to bake 'San Francisco Sourdough' bread isn't going to work in Phoenix, Arizona after the first batch or so.

The foreign yeasts and bacteria are already weakened when the starter culture was dried for packaging and distribution. It's pretty easy for the local microbes to invade and wipe out the weakened colonies.

Member of the B.B.G.A for 5 years - LOL

CC

Thanks. So if I understand correctly you suggest not extending AEM into more AEM right? Or am I mixed up?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Thanks. So if I understand correctly you suggest not extending AEM into more AEM right? Or am I mixed up?

Correct - EM-1 to make up AEM - done.

CC

 

[secondtry]

Edit: PnSB are syntropic antioxidative microbes, my bad, but that doesn't change my overall suggestion (which could be incorrect to start with, we have no data to work with AFAIK).

 

[secondtry]

@ CC,

Cool. I was getting worried I need a nap if was further confused! ha.

 

[mad librettist]

I tried to point out (yet I could be in error) that in fermented cultures like Kombucha one is not keeping it anaerobic, nor are we concerned with non-fermenters because few should be present. That is why you can use SCOBY from 'new' batches of Kombucha. The balance of types of microbes in EM and AEM is is very important.

It seems to me, (could be wrong) that there is confusion caused by the term facultative anaerobic being confused with anaerobic when describing organisms. As far as i know all of these critters do just fine in the presence of oxygen.

Further, kombucha tastes like EM made out of mushrooms. And my palate is pretty good.

Let's talk practice for a minute. If I brew some EM from the mother, use that for soil and my worm bins and compost, then brew some of that into more brew that I use for the same, and go back to the mother after 3-4 brews, will I do right by my garden?

now just to josh a bit:

I hope I didn't make any typos...or errors. Thanks for the good discussion.

You spelled it vis á vie. "Vie" as in C'est la vie. Vis á vis. "Vis" comes from "voir" or "to see".

 

[Trichgnomes]

It seems to me, (could be wrong) that there is confusion caused by the term facultative anaerobic being confused with anaerobic when describing organisms. As far as i know all of these critters do just fine in the presence of oxygen

I agree. I don't think the PNSBs are getting enough credit. They are indeed facultative anaerobes, not obligate anaerobes. PNSBs prefer anaerobic conditions, but will be fine if there is a little oxygen. Obligate anaerobes physically cannot respirate oxygen, and will die, but I would speculate the PNSBs would probably just not reproduce as fast.