Effective Microorganisms, aka EM

[mad librettist]

Well - one method developed in France in the 18th Century uses grape skins because the 'gray' covering on grapes contain any number of 'wild yeasts' that start the fermentation process.

Organic rye seeds (ground) is the other method.

CC

Those grape skins also have the critters responsible for malolactic fermentation which is important to certain styles of winemaking.

 

[secondtry]

Hey CC,

Yea that's probably the same kind of sugar yeast, errr, wild yeast. Maybe not the same specie as in EM, but sugar yeast is sugar yeast AFAIK.

 

[Trichgnomes]

Lots of great discussion going on here, but this thread is definitely lacking in photos. I mentioned the other day that I let a brew go for 8 days at a ratio of 1.5 : 1 of EM/ Molasses. The pH was 3.5 (will go lower next time, as the temp was a bit low, and I didn't have a constant light source for the first couple days of brewing, and I'm a bit of a newb to EM extension).
I used that AEM to start another batch, despite conflicting theory on this practice. I most likely will not do this a third time, but wanted to try it out either way. Here are some pics of the AEM being to used to create a second extension (often referred to as AEM2). This is at approx. 18 hours.

Enjoy

 

[secondtry]

Nice setup! That's cool man. I have used a similar (smaller) setup before. Try to keep temps up if you can.

See the white on the surface? That is from yeast AFAIK, and in a low O2 environ, i.e., no head space there is very little white buildup.

Good work man.

 

[Trichgnomes]

See the white on the surface? That is from yeast AFAIK, and in a low O2 environ, i.e., no head space there is very little white buildup.

Word. This is my third brew. The first, was in a plastic food grade true brew, that was not very well sealed, and I had a lot of yeast development on the surface. The one that finished yesterday (in the same glass carboy) had no visible yeast however. There is about the same amount of head space, so I'm not sure exactly what caused the yeast explosion this time, perhaps the fact that I used AEM? LOL

 

[Trichgnomes]

Should I fill it almost all the way to the stopper next time?

 

[secondtry]

I would. According to VP and Gil Cardang (sp?) a small of a head space is all you need. And I find the bigger the head space the more the yeast output so I assume it makes the AEM more balanced toward yeast. HTH

 

[mad librettist]

from vp's book:

 

[secondtry]

Hey Mad.L.,

What is your point? You seem to be trying to prove something but I'm not sure what it is.

What you keep quoting from VP is not what we make (as a general rule), we make plain ol' AEM in a matter of week/s which is best for growing cannabis AFIAK; not months as VP is suggesting in that screenshot. The 'normal' directions by VP are similar to those of SCD World and EMRO. For ingestion I would agree with a longer ferment to insure the pH kills/hinders all human pathogen microbes (which is the whole reason to use fermented foods in the ifst place), but for growing cannabis and other plants and microremediation one to two weeks is fine IMO, tho plate counts are needed, I could be wrong.

Ample head space is left for gasses being produced from liquid during fermentation, but trichgnomes uses a gas lock, out but not in, just like my oil method. Gil tapes the lids on so they don't 'explode' off from the Co2/gasses during fermentation and reproduction of LAB. I like my method and trichgnomes method the best out of those four methods. With using the method of trichgnomes, Gil or myself there is no need for a large headspace; nor is there a need to open the container as VP writes (in that old book) which is mostly to to allow gasses to escape AFIAK.

 

[mad librettist]

Nah, VP actually advises against gas locks that only let air out, as it can be dangerous to have negative pressure if you use glass. I'm trying to post quotes because I sense some reluctance to believe I am not making this up. I learned to brew EM from this book, which I bought based on ganja din's recommendation (miss that guy).

Your characterization of the context of VP's writing above is wrong. And you seem to have misread. Nowhere does he state this is a 3 month fermentation. That's a specific recipe. This is "general rule of thumb". He is referring to how long it takes a normal person to brew normal EM, without 100F temps. Barrels of it. For storage and use. In real life.

Storage is an important consideration for anyone who isn't working with a lab and may need to brew it in the warm months or in large batches for any number of reasons.

My purpose here is to pick at the loose ends that are bugging me and make go say "duh" if someone half intelligent asks me how this stuff works. I still don't get it, because I am either missing something or the explanations I'm getting suck. I'm sorry if anyone is frustrated, but all I need to stop is some answers that make sense.

 

[secondtry]

Hey Mad.L., Thanks.

That's the whole point of the air locks, to keep gases like oxygen from entering, and that's why they are used to ferment. Why would you have negative pressure? That's the point, the microbes produces gasses during fermentation which the air lock lets out, yet doesn't let gasses in.

No one is suggesting you are making anything up. No one even eluded to that point. I was just wondering why it seems you want VP to right. I'm just curious, I'm not picking a fight.

In the screenshot you attacked Vinny is referring to ferments from "4 to 8 weeks" as a [sic] "General Rule of Thumb - Fermentation".

You have gotten correct answers already (AFAIK); I am sorry they don't make sense to you, but they are what they are. Maybe I'm not explaining it well, and the style of VPs writing doesn't help either. All I can write is I think you are "stuck" on O2. Making AEM should be an anaerobic process without addition of O2; that's it, easy peasie. I don't know why you want to make it an aerobic process...

OK off to dinner and movie! Have a good night.

 

[mad librettist]

It's taken me a month or more to make AEM before... I use plastic soda bottles, and I don't always have a warm, bright place. They go wherever.

VP recommends a 2 piece airlock that lets air in in the event of negative pressure, not a 3 piece. Which he states, btw, is caused by PNSB eating the CO2 in the later stages of fermentation.

I don't need him to be right, but I have seen quite a few references to him in this thread, so it's pretty normal for me to quote from the pdf.

 

[Microbeman]

a little point; I've got negative pressure with AEM, so much so that a cup ful can crumple a large pop bottle [with the wrong type of lid]. Why, I don't know.

 

[Microbeman]

Vinny also describes a semi-aerobic continuous fermenter(?) I think his version of copying a pond

 

[mad librettist]

yeah it's hard not to picture a rube goldberg contraption

Edit: hey now that I'm looking, it appears S. cerevisiae are also capable of anaerobic fermentation.

 

[ScrubNinja]

I just wish I could copy and paste from this book. PDF won't let me.

For future reference, if you use a common pdf reader, click the text tool button, it looks like a T, and it lets you select and copy/paste text. Great thread, everybody. Peace.

 

[mad librettist]

For future reference, if you use a common pdf reader, click the text tool button, it looks like a T, and it lets you select and copy/paste text. Great thread, everybody. Peace.

lol I know how to do that!

But this PDF is copyright protected with a password. It's almost like the guy has put aside other pursuits in favor of working with and teaching about EM. So he needs some cash to support himself and maybe build up a nest egg if he lives in a country like the USA, where you can't get sick between retirement and medicare.

 

[Trichgnomes]

So what is the consensus on the airlock? Is negative pressure still a possibility? I've seen pictures of beer brewed in the same carboy/airlock combo I am using with foam totally bursting out of it. Do you all think I am safe with the airlock? Before I went to bed last night, there was one bubble every 3 seconds. Now it is about every second.

 

[mad librettist]

is it a 3 piece or a two piece? sounds like 3 piece?

I can only tell you that I get negative pressure as well with a thorough brew and especially storage. And that the only professional EM dude we know says you are asking for trouble. This is why I use soda bottles. It's cheap, and the pressure tolerances are insane.

 

[Trichgnomes]

I think it is considered a two piece. I have a three piece one that I used for the previous brew, but switched it so I could clean that one while I set this up. It is this kind: